Taxation without Representation?

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Posted 10/8/2012 by joyfulitl in NSBR Board
 

joyfulitl
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:15:25 PM
Does huge deficit spending which will impact future generations taxation cross into texation without representation?

The spending done today that my kids will pay for in 20 years without being able to elect or not elect the people spending their money...does this make sense?

Would love to hear other's thoughts...


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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:36:10 PM
It's insane, that's why BO has to go.



dynalady
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:42:14 PM
We have representation. We are represented by the people we voted in to office to represent us, regardless of whether you personally agree with their decisions or not.







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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:48:41 PM

It's insane, that's why BO has to go.
Obama is hardly the only person to blame here. You have a really long line of administrations to thank for our current situation. Our entire system is broken, corruption is the norm instead of the exception.



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angievp
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:48:52 PM

The spending done today that my kids will pay for in 20 years without being able to elect or not elect the people spending their money...does this make sense?


No, it does not make sense. Your children don't have a right to be "represented,"---yet.


cmpeter
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:52:39 PM
You are the representation for the future, we all are. To claim that future adults are victims of taxation without representation is really a mis-use of the term.


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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:54:19 PM

Your children don't have a right to be "represented,"---yet.

your kids are represented by those you vote into office.

this admin is the most corrupt ever





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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:55:12 PM

Obama is hardly the only person to blame here. You have a really long line of administrations to thank for our current situation. Our entire system is broken, corruption is the norm instead of the exception.

Nobody else has tanked this country the way he has. Nobody. That is why BO has to go. On a good note, early voting is favoring the Republicans! Woot!



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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:55:45 PM
Absolutely every political decision is the same - a decision is made by the representatives of the people alive at the time; and both those people and their descendants get to live with the effects of the decision.
It doesn't matter whether the effects are good, bad, or indifferent; there will always be a whole country of people living with the results of political decisions made by the representatives of their ancestors. How could it be any different??




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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:55:48 PM

The spending done today that my kids will pay for in 20 years without being able to elect or not elect the people spending their money...does this make sense?


No it doesn't. Clearly you do not understand "taxation without representation." Your children are represented, their inability to vote based on age does not negate the fact that they have two senators and one congressman representing them in all legislative matters.

wren*walk
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:57:34 PM

The spending done today that my kids will pay for in 20 years without being able to elect or not elect the people spending their money...does this make sense?



No. It makes absolutely no sense.

As a society we have agreed that 18 is the age of majority. Until that time we are "represented" by our parents and through their voting choices.

But to follow your idea that children are not represented, what the heck are you suggesting? The children should revolt against this "taxation without representation"?

If that is the case, their revolt should be against their parents, who put in power the people doing the taxing.

angievp
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Posted: 10/8/2012 2:59:38 PM

But to follow your idea that children are not represented, what the heck are you suggesting? The children should revolt against this "taxation without representation"?

If that is the case, their revolt should be against their parents, who put in power the people doing the taxing.



Can you imagine? Boycotting homework and chores because they think their parents made a mistake in electing our representatives. SNORT.

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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:01:02 PM

Nobody else has tanked this country the way he has. Nobody. That is why BO has to go.
*face/palm*

The choice between Obama and Romney is like a choice between cancer and aids; neither is acceptable. It's gone so far beyond the "lessor of two evils". Getting rid of the one and bringing in the other will not fix it. Keeping the one will not fix it either.



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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:01:34 PM
Geez, I don't understand y'all getting all snotty to the OP.

She had an idea, a thought, and wondered what others' opinions were. That's all.

I don't think the idea has anything to do with taxation/representation, but I'm pretty sure I could say so without insulting her intellegence.



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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:03:14 PM

Can you imagine? Boycotting homework and chores because they think their parents made a mistake in electing our representatives. SNORT.



One shudders to think.

But the exasperated mom threads around here would get a lot more interesting, that's for sure.


leftturnonly
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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:10:25 PM

Geez, I don't understand y'all getting all snotty to the OP.

She had an idea, a thought, and wondered what others' opinions were. That's all.


That.


Our children will be paying taxes tomorrow on what is spent today. They don't have a say in it.

They might not be able to vote today, but today, they aren't being asked to pay for it.

Tomorrow, when the bill comes due for them, the people responsible will be long gone.

It's a sound moral question that you asked.


Legally, the spending today is considered as being done under representation.

Morally, these children are being burdened without their consent.






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wren*walk
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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:17:28 PM

Morally, these children are being burdened without their consent.





So again, what is being suggested here?

The age of majority should be lowered?

Time should be stopped, because we cannot guarantee choices made today will not affect the adults of tomorrow?

This makes no sense.

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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:17:47 PM
I know full well about Taxation without Representation.
As a resident alien my dh and I have paid taxes for 15+ years with no say at all in where it goes, not even an X on a sheet of paper.
Yes we accept that we chose to live here but we do fall into the TWR category.
Considering the history of the term and us being English it is rather ironic.
Katie



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Posted: 10/8/2012 3:24:05 PM

The point is, this deficit will be inherited by our children and their children. They do not have the right to elect representatives who are currently the ones doing the spending.

I do think the spending is out of control right now. It does need to be limited and the deficit needs to be dealt with now.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, what we are saying is that there is no cause for claiming taxation without representation.

desertpea
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Posted: 10/8/2012 4:00:18 PM
It's not taxation without representation because you cannot tax those not born yet.

It is immoral to enact policies that create a deficit of this magnitude.

AthenainCA
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Posted: 10/8/2012 4:11:07 PM

Does huge deficit spending which will impact future generations taxation cross into texation without representation?


Good heavens, no. Future generations will be represented by the representatives they choose to elect, just as we are now.

What we are doing to future generations with the astounding debt is reprehensible, but it's certainly not taxation without representation.



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Posted: 10/8/2012 4:21:36 PM
I'm with Lisa. It seems to be de rigueur around here lately to answer questions by basically insulting the one asking for deigning to have such a thought.

Although it's not taxation without representation, I agree with Romney that it's immoral to spend our progeny's futures away like this.

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Posted: 10/8/2012 4:28:40 PM
The following is ONLY for those who care to review these elements of
The Constitution of the United States of America

Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section. 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States ...

Section. 3.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote. ...

Section. 7.
All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; ...

Article. II.
Section. 1.
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term ...

Section. 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States ...
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for ...

Section. 3.
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; ...

- - - - - - -
Not always the easiest document to read, but always worthwhile to review from time to time (unless, of course, one has a photographic memory; I do not - which is why I have to review this from time to time - and I just thought I would share).
N.B.: and there are citizens of the US who do not have full representation, just because they live in Washington, DC.

dynalady
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Posted: 10/8/2012 4:32:33 PM

The point is, this deficit will be inherited by our children and their children. They do not have the right to elect representatives who are currently the ones doing the spending.


That point is just ridiculous. Of course they don't have the right to a vote, but we do. The right and the responsibility to choose what we consider to be in the best interest of our country now and in the future. We are their representatives. How many decisions do you think have been made that have had no effect in some way on the future? We're still paying for the Vietnam War. Did you vote on whether or not you wanted to do that? No. But you're paying anyway. Future debt is not anything new. The last time the national debt was paid in full was 1835 by Andrew Jackson. We're probably still paying for the Civil War.







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LBrock44
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:20:33 PM

The choice between Obama and Romney is like a choice between cancer and aids; neither is acceptable. It's gone so far beyond the "lessor of two evils". Getting rid of the one and bringing in the other will not fix it. Keeping the one will not fix it either.


Standing ovation. I don't want to vote for either. Obama will continue spending and not institute real reform, and Romney wants to continue supporting the wealthy, people like General Electric , in hopes they will provide jobs that they haven't been providing while claiming all these great tax benefits. To be honest, neither of these guys gives a rat's ass about us. In fact, we haven't had a decent president since Clinton (and I never voted for the guy), and haven't had a great president since Reagan.

Sorry for the rant. I just have never been this disillusioned, not even during the Bush years.


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angievp
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:20:49 PM

I know full well about Taxation without Representation.
As a resident alien my dh and I have paid taxes for 15+ years with no say at all in where it goes, not even an X on a sheet of paper.
Yes we accept that we chose to live here but we do fall into the TWR category.
Considering the history of the term and us being English it is rather ironic.
Katie


I don't understand your point. You're not a citizen. You are "allowed" to live here as a resident, but you are not a citizen. The concept does not apply to you.

angievp
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:29:45 PM

I don't get the nasty attitude being given towards the OP for asking a good moral question.


Well, she didn't as a moral question. She asked whether we thought that overspending was "taxation without representation" for future generations. That phrase has a very technical/legal/constitutional connotation/meaning. Perhaps that is why she got the responses she did.


Sparehead3
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:32:08 PM
DH works in a different state so we pay that state's income tax but aren't allowed to vote there. Stupidly enough (and fodder for another thread) when I filed my taxes with that other state my state charges me sales tax...

That is taxation without representation, at least to me.



leftturnonly
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:38:40 PM

So again, what is being suggested here?

The age of majority should be lowered?

Time should be stopped, because we cannot guarantee choices made today will not affect the adults of tomorrow?







Legally, the spending today is considered as being done under representation.

Morally, these children are being burdened without their consent.



From that, you come up with lowering the age of majority, and miss not saddling them with trillions of dollars of debt that they aren't accountable for.

Okydokey.





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leftturnonly
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Posted: 10/8/2012 5:46:42 PM

The right and the responsibility to choose what we consider to be in the best interest of our country now and in the future. We are their representatives. How many decisions do you think have been made that have had no effect in some way on the future? We're still paying for the Vietnam War. Did you vote on whether or not you wanted to do that? No. But you're paying anyway. Future debt is not anything new. The last time the national debt was paid in full was 1835 by Andrew Jackson. We're probably still paying for the Civil War.


Thank you Kim.

In addition to what Kim said, I believe that we are adding too much debt for our kids, and I don't believe that's a right or a good thing to do.








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Posted: 10/8/2012 7:37:22 PM

I know full well about Taxation without Representation.
As a resident alien my dh and I have paid taxes for 15+ years with no say at all in where it goes, not even an X on a sheet of paper.
Yes we accept that we chose to live here but we do fall into the TWR category.
Considering the history of the term and us being English it is rather ironic.
Katie

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Posted: 10/8/2012 8:07:54 PM

From that, you come up with lowering the age of majority, and miss not saddling them with trillions of dollars of debt that they aren't accountable for.

Okydokey.




Yet again, what is being suggested here then?

So the solutions are?

The question as posed does not make sense legally.

It doesn't make any sense morally either.

Or, what do you propose to address the inevitability of the progress of time? What do you suppose I should do to address my displeasure at the voting choices of my parents and the generations of people before me?

missbitts
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Posted: 10/8/2012 8:25:35 PM
Nothing is being suggested. The OP asked a question. Lots of other Peas answered it. You've decided it's got all sorts of nefarious hidden meanings, and you've been arguing about what you see that's not there.

AthenainCA
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:01:17 PM

As a resident alien my dh and I have paid taxes for 15+ years with no say at all in where it goes, not even an X on a sheet of paper.
Yes we accept that we chose to live here but we do fall into the TWR category.

That's part of the deal of choosing to live here and not becoming a citizen.




wren*walk
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:09:07 PM

Nothing is being suggested. The OP asked a question. Lots of other Peas answered it. You've decided it's got all sorts of nefarious hidden meanings, and you've been arguing about what you see that's not there.



I don't think the question has nefarious hidden meanings at all since I said from the outset that it made no sense to me. I don't know where OP, who has never returned to clarify, or anyone else is going with this.

So I'm puzzled about the question itself and what those with whom it seems to resonate want to propose as a solution.

If that's ok with you.

missbitts
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:14:13 PM
Hey, have a nut! It's entertaining as all get out

angievp
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Posted: 10/8/2012 9:17:25 PM

I don't think the question has nefarious hidden meanings at all since I said from the outset that it made no sense to me. I don't know where OP, who has never returned to clarify, or anyone else is going with this.


ITA.

the OP asked a seemingly straightforward question.

People answered, disagreeing with the question posed.

We got handslapped for being mean.

The people are saying, "OH, no, the OP isn't *really* asking about taxation without representation, she's asking about the morality of leaving huge deficits for future generations."

The OP has not returned to clarify/modify her query.

We are


leftturnonly
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:08:21 PM

The people are saying, "OH, no, the OP isn't *really* asking about taxation without representation, she's asking about the morality of leaving huge deficits for future generations."


We, the people, never said the OP said anything of the sort.

She posed a question that should have caused some thought.




I answered two-fold. There's what is legal and there is what is moral.





Wren decided that meant lowering the age of majority from 21.







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joyfulitl
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:24:52 PM
Ok, thanks for replies- much food for thought.

I can definitely see some spill over from one generation to the next in terms of policy but not the current deficit growing at leaps and bounds because Washington (Both parties responsible) cannot seem to keep their check-writing Pens in their Pants.

What I was wondering is both how legal and how moral is it for future generations to pay for Laws and Spending that benefited politicians (and those politicians' donors) whom they did not elect. I think so much spending is scratching a politician's donors like Bush/Cheney's oil and Pharma ties as well as current admin's Solyndra stuff and...

I'm NOT buying that our kids are represented by those we elect! No, I'm not talking about instituting DayCare voting booths to accomplish that-LOL. (hilarious).

In the summer of 2008, Barack Obama said the following about Bush.“The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents. #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That's irresponsible. It's unpatriotic." I couldn't agree more with our current President's statement when he was a Senator. However, I'm not sure if I heard him state this now, that I wouldn't make some comment about the pot calling the kettle black.

Do I think Paul Ryan's running mate will do any better? I agree with a couple of other posters that Romney probably won't.

Solutions? End political back scratching, circle jerks...When Senator X retires and gets a job with Z Corporation at $200,000/year, I smell a stinker, don't you? When retired politicians get these consultant jobs, they can forfeit their retirement pay from the texpayers!
CUT Washington salaries-no raises until budget is on track to be balanced
Politician's should live under the same rules they put on the country.
If a program doesn't work, cut it!
And, I do agree with some right-wingers that my tax dollars supporting countries who have larger economies than ours is silly.

Hope this clarified some of the query earlier.



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wren*walk
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:36:45 PM

I answered two-fold. There's what is legal and there is what is moral.





Wren decided that meant lowering the age of majority from 21.




That was only one of two proposals I made.

The other was stopping time itself.

And you, who initially thought it was such an interesting question, still haven't proposed anything.

Perhaps you haven't really thought about it very deeply after all.

jackieb410
PeaWee

PeaNut 543,253
February 2012
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:37:47 PM
I liked when Romney said that he would ask if a program is worth borrowing money from China to keep it is worth it. I'm just gonna pray for our leaders to do the right thing.


Jackie
Www.jackiebarfield.blogspot.com
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joyfulitl
PeaAddict

PeaNut 13,267
March 2001
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:44:53 PM
Jackie B,
Cool quote, but will Romney's quote possibly be like President O's disgust with Bush's spending that I quoted aobve?

My solution: pitchforks and torches-LOL. Where is the emoticon for an uprising of villagers?


Scrapbooking is not an addiction, it's a subculture.
www.studiowowjoy.com

wren*walk
PeaAddict

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September 2010
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Posted: 10/8/2012 10:58:46 PM

I'm NOT buying that our kids are represented by those we elect! No, I'm not talking about instituting DayCare voting booths to accomplish that-LOL. (hilarious).




Thank you for coming back to clarify. And you bring up some really interesting questions about how government works in general.

But you sort of lose me with the above. Who are our kids represented by if not their parents and to some extent, wider communities? This is why I didn't get your original question.

To me this is the social construct that we all live by and previous generations have lived by. Every succeeding generation lives in the shadow of the previous ones. And even during our own adulthoods we may be bitter that for instance someone we didn't vote for decided to suck up the surplus and go on a phony war. That surely sucked too for some kids who turned 18 in time to vote for Obama. But it is what it is and all we can do is go forward and hope WE make better choices and pass them on to our kids.

And yes, there are LOTS of changes I would like to see in government. Lots.

xicanabuela
PeaAddict

PeaNut 196,849
March 2005
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Posted: 10/9/2012 8:53:42 AM
from Wren:
- " ...there are LOTS of changes I would like to see in government."

To all:
What are the changes you would like to see?

remember this, from the Constitution:
Section. 7.
All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
See also, Section 8

How well did your Congressional representative do in the last 2 years? Are you 100% satisfied with her/his performance? Do you like/agree with how they determined what to do with your money? Will you vote to retain or change who will represent you in Congress?
Is your Senator up for re-election? Are you 100% satisfied with her/his performance over the last 6 years?
So (too) much to contemplate. Excuse me, I need some chocolate.

joyfulitl
PeaAddict

PeaNut 13,267
March 2001
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Loc: Barnhouse Studio: Lindale, TX

Posted: 10/9/2012 12:57:04 PM
In American history, we have had periods after HUGE wars like the fight for Independence, WW1 , and WW2 where it took more than a decade to pay off that debt. Actually, it took like 35+ years to pay off the War for Independence so historically, taxation when terms in office were long over has been done.

While I was looking today to see when National Debt has been at its highest, expecting WW2 (the big one) to be at the top of the list, I ran across the article below from a website whose tagline is "Because opinions are like sphincters, everybody has one."

http://rangelmd.com/2012/01/the-national-debt-crisis-dont-panic-all-is-well/

It points out that our debt in Jan 2012 (and growing) exceeds our output, and indeed the last time this occured was in 1946.

Obviously, something with the status quo "ain't" working. This same scenario happened during WW2 (the big one-LOL-spending more than our output) but of course, the spending ENDED, followed by a boom in our economy because of job creation.

The article also outlines the bailout spending done recently as not having such effect on job creation/business support-(correctly or incorrectly, I'm not sure). The spending supposedly has been to keep unemployed people from drowning so to speak to maintain the status quo which again "ain't good" in terms of true recovery. The plan has not been a good one, it has had some "heart" I'd say, but it is not effective in solving unemployment problems if the article is correct.

It doesn't look like there is an end to the current, possibly ineffective spending which will greatly burden our children.

The Yo-Yo spending/taxation/saber rattling that goes between the two main parties continues to raise our debt while the politicians benefits/powers always increase.





Scrapbooking is not an addiction, it's a subculture.
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Kiwi-Jo
kiwi: a cute bird

PeaNut 9,462
January 2001
Posts: 6,342
Layouts: 11
Loc: New Zealand

Posted: 10/9/2012 1:15:56 PM
Does any western, first world, country live within its means?
Is it possible for a country to do so?

When looking at our family's budget, DH and I make sure that we spend less than we bring in; but is it possible for a country to do so?

I have never studied economics at all, and would be really interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who has, with regard to this.




**Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, fact or tact are transmission errors.

.

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

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March 2009
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Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World, again.

Posted: 10/9/2012 2:08:15 PM

How well did your Congressional representative do in the last 2 years? Are you 100% satisfied with her/his performance? Do you like/agree with how they determined what to do with your money? Will you vote to retain or change who will represent you in Congress?
Is your Senator up for re-election? Are you 100% satisfied with her/his performance over the last 6 years?



My area has once again been redistricted to benefit political parties.

At the moment, my congressman does represent me very well.

My new congressman will be from the opposite party. He doesn't have any real opposition, and he's well known here. He's going to win. He's done some very good work in Congress that I love. I thought he fell right along with party lines, so I just looked it up, and I'm pleased to see that he is considered to be very centerist.

He's a man that I believe will work with those across the aisle if given the chance.




The article also outlines the bailout spending done recently as not having such effect on job creation/business support-(correctly or incorrectly, I'm not sure). The spending supposedly has been to keep unemployed people from drowning so to speak to maintain the status quo which again "ain't good" in terms of true recovery. The plan has not been a good one, it has had some "heart" I'd say, but it is not effective in solving unemployment problems if the article is correct.

It doesn't look like there is an end to the current, possibly ineffective spending which will greatly burden our children.



Money was given based on favoritism from the stimulus. A lot of money.

Why did Romney bring up Sesame Street during the debate? Sesame Street received $1 million stimulus grant. They created 1.47 jobs. link

After the debate, team Obama made an ad featuring Big Bird, and Sesame Street has requested it be taken down. link








Does Sesame Street even need minimal governmental funding/year?


October 06, 2012

Taxpayers Foot The Bill; Big Bird Cleans Up The Profits

Big Bird may be on welfare, but he's cleaning up big with merchandising profits:

Shows like Sesame Street are multi-million dollar enterprises capable of thriving in the private market. According to the 990 tax form all nonprofits are required to file, Sesame Workshop President and CEO Gary Knell received $956,513 -- nearly a million dollars -- in compensation in 2008. And, from 2003 to 2006, "Sesame Street" made more than $211 million from toy and consumer product sales.

That works out to around $50 million a year in profits. In the end, it's the U.S. taxpayer that loses. It's time Big Bird is weened from the public teat.



I love Sesame Street. I love the toys. I'm very happy they've done so well for 40 years.

When will President Obama make an issue of Gary Knell's ~ $1 million salary/year the same way he has with others?

He won't. Ever. Favortism rules.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
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Posted: 10/9/2012 7:22:36 PM
My senator (not Reid -- the other one) proposed to halt all salary payments to senators until they passed a budget.

It went over like a lead balloon.
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