Questions about TOU as it relates to some posts here

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Posted 3/21/2013 by GeekPea in General Scrappin'
 

GeekPea
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Posted: 3/21/2013 2:47:34 PM
I wanted to share some threads that were emailed to me of concern where the TOU are involved. I'm not going to act on these at the moment because I want everyone to understand our thoughts on some of these and how we think the TOU apply. This doesn't answer everything and there are a LOT of grey areas, but hopefully this helps identify where my thoughts are. Obviously every situation is different and I fully support any decisions my staff makes as to why they remove something. And context has as much to do with those decisions as the content itself. There won't always be clear cases...

Customer Service from Citrus Twist
Whether or not this thread was posted as bait considering the current events, discussing a good or bad experience at another establishment is not in direct violation of the TOU. If the discussion were to become hostile and malicious, it would be pulled. If it linked to a company that competed directly with us, it may be in violation of the TOU. It's a judgement call. We don't carry or sell subscriptions to a monthly kit / kit club, so I don't find this particular thread (as of this morning) in violation.


Tampa, FL Peas! Any good LSS's in the area?
We don't compete with LSS's. In fact, we strongly encourage and support the LSS's. We can't offer the kinds of hands-on teaching that an LSS can. We also don't offer the same kinds of products in a lot of cases. We want to grow this industry, obviously, so we encourage people to visit their LSS and support them where possible.

Super Sketch Club Stalkers- OP updated with links to key posts and pics on pg 2 of a kit
A violation and a clear advertisement or discussion intended to generate sales somewhere else. I have no problem with a discussion about a good or bad experience someone has with another site, club, whatever, as long as it's constructive and not intended to abuse this forum and use it as a promotional platform. We offer advertising options for promoting something. The boards, and gallery for that matter, should not have detailed information about a sale, product, service, etc, especially with links to it and pictures. We don't provide the boards as a free-for-all marketing platform.

Volunteering at Creating Keepsakes Convention
Again not every scrapbook "thing" is a competitor to Two Peas. While I don't want advertisements from CKC staff to start showing up, we are a scrapbooking site and encourage discussions about Scrapbooking and what people are doing. I don't see a violation here.

Stampin Up stamp storage cases
A review of something scrapbooking related? No problem. Again, if I blocked every discussion about scrapbooking products, would there be left to talk about?! On a side note, the gallery is not intended to host discussion images, just projects.

Would like recommendations for a high quality water color set
Asking for recommendations for a product is totally okay. Providing a public link to a competitive store would not be. Especially if it's a product we carry.


MN Peas
Just fine. Again, we support local LSS's and hope that it helps to grow their business and our industry.

HSN 25th ALL DAY!
HSN is not a competitor for us. Honestly, you can buy scrapbook product at all kinds of places. I see it at the grocery store now, but nothing they carry would make an appearance at Two Peas. The really big stores may have some overlapping product, but I would see them more of a competitor for some other stores out there, but not ours. HSN (and QVC, etc) typically have a very limited selection but in high volume, or they utilize close-out product to create a kit. Not something we offer here.

Customer Service from Pine Cone Press...anyone have this problem?
Again, discussing a problem or experience is fine so long as it doesn't become bashing or malicious attacks. If the purpose is to discuss and get feedback on a problem, fine. But if the intent is to destroy a company on our boards, that's not acceptable.

New Scrapbook Store opening in Phoenix
LSS. No problem. Oh, as long as the store isn't advertising that they have a great online store, too, and offer all of the same product as two peas for less! That would obviously, not be okay.

28 Days of Sketches...
A discussion about furthering your scrapbook experience. No problem.

papers/embellies for Circus pictures???
Hmmm. Again, as long as there are not links to products we carry or outright "store x always has what I need for my circus layouts, click here!" type ads, I'm not going to freak out about it. I want everyone to be able to have real scrapbook discussions and looking for advice is certainly going to be part of that.



GeekPea
Two Peas in a Bucket

ckettel
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Posted: 3/21/2013 2:53:36 PM
Thanks for the clarification and the examples.


Chris













Kate-pea
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Posted: 3/21/2013 3:00:15 PM
That was surprisingly illuminating - thanks so much for taking the time to show the "spirit" behind the "letter" of the TOU!

aerynkelly13
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Posted: 3/21/2013 3:09:24 PM
This is much more clear, though I think I was one of the few that took away the same statements from the original TOU post. It is not difficult to not point direct links to places when responding to questions about products. We all know how to use "The Google" should we need specifics.


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ThreeCs
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Posted: 3/21/2013 4:09:17 PM
So is the massive sketch thread going to be removed?
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PennyPaws
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:06:05 PM
That's all so... reasonable...lol The examples really help

Velouria
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:14:09 PM
Yes, thank you! Very reasonable and perfect with the examples.



ca angel
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:29:23 PM

HSN 25th ALL DAY!
HSN is not a competitor for us. Honestly, you can buy scrapbook product at all kinds of places. I see it at the grocery store now, but nothing they carry would make an appearance at Two Peas. The really big stores may have some overlapping product, but I would see them more of a competitor for some other stores out there, but not ours. HSN (and QVC, etc) typically have a very limited selection but in high volume, or they utilize close-out product to create a kit. Not something we offer here.


Does that mean that 2peas will not be carrying Project Life? And if not then it still makes me wonder from a business stand point why promote the brand Project Life by using the brand in your video titles? I'm asking because in my logical mind it doesn't make sense and I'm just wondering why that decision was made ( if you care to share)

I'm glad to hear that 2 peas doesn't consider big box store competitors. I didn't see it as competition and I'm glad that we can still share about our finds.

I hope that TPTB with take the time to craft a new, clear, well thought out TOU soon. Leaving it as it is just perpetuates the miscommunication.
Ca angel

Just Lizzy
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:36:47 PM
If the TOU clearly and succintly stated the rules, and further explanations given to the peas by your staff through the message board weren't confusing and contradictory, then your explanations here would make sense.

As it is, there is still a lack of clarity as to what the TOU actually mean, and what it is, and isn't, okay to post.

Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to, Content that Two Peas determines in its sole discretion:

* contains any advertising or soliciting including without limitation, advertisements, store announcements, for sale or trade, coupons, sales, consultants, and eBay postings. Links or references to other sites or stores are not permitted. We reserve the right to delete any thread or posting containing any of these mentioned prohibitions. Please note this includes soliciting or promoting through the use of our PeaMail system or PeaNut Gallery. Accounts may be deleted without warning due to this infraction;
Emphasis added. That seems pretty clear to me. ARE NOT PERMITTED. I don't see any gray area there, yet many of the threads you are continuing to permit clearly violate that rule.

Clarifications
Under the TOU:

Supporting your fellow scrapbooking designers, by name, is allowed. Use of Two Peas resources to promote competing internet sites is not allowed. This includes:

Hyperlinks to competing sites or blogs that specifically promote competing sites, whether in message board posts, user signatures, or gallery postings.
Using the PeaMail system to contact potential customers. Using PeaMail to advertise or redirect customers is unacceptable.
Mention of competing sites in the titles of Gallery postings.

To clarify, a site is considered a Competing Site if it:

Sells scrapbooking products of any kind, even if it isn't a product carried here at Two Peas in a Bucket (since it might be something we plan to carry).
Has a scrapbook message board forum or user gallery.
Sells digital elements or kits.
Offers free digital elements or kits.
Sells fonts.
Offers free fonts.

Again, your explanations in the new TOU thread are contradictory to what is clearly stated in the site's TOU. How can you expect us to follow the rules when you yourself don't?

From Jamie's Sticky Thread on TOU:

I realize some posts are made about product that we do not carry or currently have in stock. We ask that you still not make posts of this nature. If you are unsure if your post complies with our Terms of Use, just ask yourself if what you are wanting to share would encourage a reader to click away from Two Peas or to spend their scrapping budget elsewhere. If so, we ask that you not share it.
Again, further ambiguity regarding the stated TOU.

From Geek's own Sticky on TOU:

We don't carry or sell subscriptions to a monthly kit/kit club, so I don't find this particular thread (as of this morning) in violation.

A violation and a clear advertisement or discussion intended to generate sales somewhere else.
And yet, this still hasn't been removed. It is CLEARLY in violation of the TOU, not to mention of a gigantuan size which is sure to impact the smooth operation of the boards ("W" anyone?), yet it. is. still. here.

Providing a public link to a competitive store...
Many of those threads DO contain links to competitive sites.

HSN is not a competitor for us... Not something we offer here.
Another contradiction to the previously stated TOU. Can you not see the inconsistencies here? Can you not understand how this confuses the "Average Joe/Josephine"?


Feeder of Denali, Dakota, Shadow & Kai

Mom2sons
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:49:23 PM
I've loosely followed the issues on the GS board the last few days but have been particularly interested in this thread and the other one posted by Jeffrey.

I ask this question in a completely non-confrontational way but would really appreciate an explanation on how the SSC thread is a violation of the TOU but the threads on Citrus Twist, Studio Calico or any other kit club is not.

On a thread where someone mentions particular papers or products, the dynamic is the same whether it's Citrus Twist, Studio Calico or Scrapbook Generation or any other monthly kit club.

In the example given above about Citrus Twist the following comment is made:
"We don't carry or sell subscriptions to a monthly kit / kit club, so I don't find this particular thread (as of this morning) in violation."

I don't have a vested interest in any kit club so my question is purely from the standpoint of understanding the TOU and fairness.

The ladies from Scrapbook Generation seem to go out of their way to avoid shameless self-promotion, keeping their posts to answering questions and posting about day-to-day pea related stuff.

Of course, answering questions or commenting about the kits may be misconstrued as shameless self-promotion but it would be hard to answer a question about the kit club or comment about it without mentioning the kit club (and by default the SG website or blog).

But the same would happen if the thread was about a Citrus Twist kit club.

For the sake of 5th grade math I just randomly clicked on 20 pages of the 89 page thread - slightly more than 20% of the entire post. I did not find one post from any of the SG ladies where they initiated or solicited sales. But again, they're selling sketch books and kit clubs. And it has already been stated that Two Peas does not sell kits or have a kit club.

I admit I have not read every single post on all 89 pages and it is possible there are links on that thread that divert traffic to other, competitive sites that I have not yet seen; however I still fail to see how the SSC thread is any different (aside from it's massive following) from a thread about any other kit club.

A random post about Studio Calico kits will also likely contain a link to the Studio Calico website. Heck, one post about what the owner of Studio Calico has posted on her message boards sends hoards of peas over there just to see for themselves.

In fairness, the original SSC post contains a link to the SG website and eventually SG will be a direct competitor to Two Peas and in that case I can see where there is (future) concern.

But for today, where happy people are happily discussing their kits along with other day-to-day stuff, how is this any different than a thread about Citrus Twist or Studio Calico?

I am certainly not geeky or techy in any way but is there a way to disable the links within that thread if that is the concern?

Clearly there is a camaraderie there among all the ladies.

Jeffrey, if you've made it this far in my epic post I applaud you, lol. I am in the customer service business and it's rarely win-win for everyone. But I am passionate about fairness.

Two Peas is a family company as is Scrapbook Generation. Perhaps Two Peas should partner with them

Full disclosure - I am in no way connected to SG, I don't get the monthly kits and I think I've posted two comments on that thread in all 89 pages. I love their sketch books. I have no personal gain in posting all of this. But I think people would be prefer to see the TOU applied fairly across all companies.

Cheers to you for both threads you've posted today but I hope the explanation of the TOU is a work in progress and not carved in stone. I hope you do not perceive this post as confrontational or argumentative. It is truly not posted in that spirit.

Shara

P.S. If you Google Super Sketch Club the 5th item in the search results is the link to Two Peas in Bucket

ETA: Looks like Lizzy and I have given Jeffrey a lot to digest, lol. Sorry, I'm not a succinct writer

RnKMom
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Posted: 3/21/2013 6:51:05 PM
I'm annoyed that my "HSN All Day" thread was included in the list of violations. All I did was mention the times that Lisa B, Martha S, and Anna G. were scheduled to be on, especially since there have been some happy/excited posts about Lisa's return. There's no talk of products -- I don't even know what will be demoed during those hours. I'd imagine that 24 hours of scrappy TV would mesh nicely with an online scrappy forum, so I mentioned the program schedule. That's all.



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WorkingClassDog
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:06:31 PM
Call me confused by this:


I'm annoyed that my "HSN All Day" thread was included in the list of violations.


Geek said it was not in violation..



~Sassy~
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:08:21 PM
GOOD LORD!!!

That is all.


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ca angel
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:09:32 PM
Rnkmom I don't think anyone was signaling you out on purpose. But I think it further shows how unclear the TOU is written. You felt you were abiding by the rule while someone else felt that it broke the rules. If the TOU was written clearly then there wouldn't be any confusion on what is allowed and what is not. As it stand now you would be OK by GeekPea's standards but not Jamie's (as was quoted above).
The problem isn't you the problem is the poorly written TOU.
Ca angel

RnKMom
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:09:55 PM

Geek said it was not in violation.
Sorry, I meant that it was included in the list that was sent to him in the first place.

BTW, yes, I see where ambiguities lie and why, from just the title of that thread, it was included. The content of the post, though, isn't anything against 2Peas.

I'm tired and rambling...


~Patricia~
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peapermint
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:17:15 PM
Thanks!

I wish Two Peas WOULD carry the Scrapbook Generation sketch books. It's the only reason I've ever placed an order at what I perceive to be the main competing website. The sketch books are super-popular, as you can see.

Loydene
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:25:25 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight ... and hesitate to post to any of these threads ... but .....

everyone does realize, do they not, that Scrapbook Generations now has an on-line, retail, selling presence?

Mom2sons
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Posted: 3/21/2013 7:45:54 PM

everyone does realize, do they not, that Scrapbook Generations now has an on-line, retail, selling presence?


Yes, they do. And so does Studio Calico. My point was that the content of the epic SSC thread is related to the kit club and sketch books.

The TOU needs to be applied fairly, across the board. But they also need to be clear and understandable.

Shara


doesitmatter?
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Posted: 3/21/2013 8:03:31 PM
Thank you Jeffrey. Your new examples requests regarding the TOU seem reasonable. I can understand why you wouldn't want us to promote other competitors, but previously we were told that we couldn't even discuss items that twopeas doesn't carry or does carry but are are out of stock~ that is where many of us found issues. Your examples and explanations today seem reasonable and I appreciate you taking charge and getting directly involved with your customers.


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Posted: 3/21/2013 8:12:56 PM
Haha. Look at does it matters avatar!!
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peapermint
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Posted: 3/21/2013 9:04:17 PM

everyone does realize, do they not, that Scrapbook Generations now has an on-line, retail, selling presence?


I did forget about that. It's just something they announced within the last week or so.

LBrock44
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Posted: 3/21/2013 9:11:15 PM
May I ask what the intent is with the 24 hour ban messages that I see on several threads? Really, it reeks of a slap on the wrist and is pretty juvenile. But maybe I'm missing something. Please enlighten me/us.


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tracylynn
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Posted: 3/21/2013 9:47:19 PM
He spoke about the bannings on another thread.

As for his examples in this thread, I think the intent of the TOU with his explanations are pretty clear. Do the TOU need rewritten? Probably, but I'm not sure why we have to keep harping on it when it's clear they understand there is a consistency issue here.



Jjmikrut143
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Posted: 3/22/2013 12:43:52 AM
This thread right here should be a clear example of how impossible it is to make everyone happy!!! No matter what twopeas or Jeffery or their staff try to do to correct a situation or make things better it still isn't good enough!! I think the rules of the TOU have been made clear plenty of times.. And seem fair to me..

Jeffery I think you are doing an awesome job here and thank you for taking the time out of your day to further Clairify these issues! The negativity around here lately is beyond annoying! If someone is that unhappy here or you don't agree with the rules and whatever else then you don't have to stay here.. I fully support twopeas in every way possible and would hate to loose the msg boards or free resources because others ruined it for everyone!!!


Jennifer

TSC
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Count: 2
Posted: 3/22/2013 6:06:57 AM
I totally understand how they wouldn't want people posting items to promote other businesses, try going into McDonalds and passing out promotional slips from Wendys, see how fast you get booted to the door!

I also don't have a problem with lengthy threads that really don't have any content in them (the games or threads where people are just bumping them to the top to increase their post count) being deleted to increase the speed of the site. I'm tired of the site crashing and I applaud them for trying to prevent it from happening. I hate to see all the praise being removed from previous layouts though.

But the complaints I've heard on Facebook and other message boards are not about Peas getting banned for promoting another online store, they were banned because they complained about the customer service from 2P's. Again, it's their board and they have the right to serve whoever they choose but, if the comments were not vicious (and I've seen some of those that stay posted forever) I'm not sure why those people were included? I know one lady and she is super sweet. It may have been a case of everyone that posted on a certain threads were banned and she just made the mistake of posting her comments one one of those, I'm not sure. (The thread I'm talking about was one concerning someone that had a problem with a 6x6 pad of paper.) It does make me cautious about posting on the board at all, even about posting on this one because I have commented on problems before (like I still REALLY HATE all the white, it hurts my eyes and keeps me off this site more than I would like to be) and I wonder if something I say may be construed as critical and result in me getting the "go to your room for 24 hour" message. Although, thinking about it, I might actually get some cleaning done!





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Twinkiejo
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Posted: 3/22/2013 8:25:54 AM
Thanks for the clarification of TOU! I am also happy to say that my thread is one of the examples listed in this thread and that it was deemed as "Fine". I'm not so happy that the thread was brought to your attention to begin with, but glad that it is not infringing on 2peas TOU.



Happy to be Scrappin'

ca angel
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Posted: 3/22/2013 9:19:10 AM

I think the rules of the TOU have been made clear plenty of times..

I agree they have been made clearer in this thread. But what happens when this thread disappears to the 2nd page a beyond? The sticky at the top still stands and still contradicts what has been said here. Until that is updated there will still be confusion and misunderstanding. There are people who post here who may choose not to read these "drama" threads. There are people who don't come everyday. For them the only TOU they know is the sticky at the top (if they have read it). That's why I think that for TPTB to really listen and respond to our feedback they should revise the current TOU (the sticky) to include the explanations listed in this thread. Leaving it as is perpetuates the confusion.
Ca angel

bestcee
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Posted: 3/22/2013 10:51:04 PM
Clarification: (and I'll probably be banned, but I'm going to ask anyway!)

How is it that 28 Days of Sketches... (no offense to the pea who started it!) is okay, even though it competes with the Garden Girls classes, but telling someone where they can find a product that 2peas doesn't sell is not okay?

Example: I directed someone to where they could find digital Disney supplies, and got in trouble because "we have a number of digital designer that earn their living on our site" even though none of the stuff is Disney oriented. I would think the same rule should apply for classes.

And yes, I'm waiting to see how the TOU will apply to digital now that you are getting rid of it.


Courtney
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Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 3/22/2013 11:06:15 PM
Thank you for the clarification. I always thought it should be common sense, like dont link to other online stores, but Jamie's thread seemed to be so restrictive. Too restrictive actually. Like dont talk about anything that doesn't involve twopeas. But this is much more specific. Except I don't understand why SG is not ok while other kit clubs are. But from what I do understand is that just don't link to other websites. If that's the case then it makes perfect sense.




Meow!

RnKMom
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Posted: 3/22/2013 11:19:04 PM

I am also happy to say that my thread is one of the examples listed in this thread and that it was deemed as "Fine". I'm not so happy that the thread was brought to your attention to begin with, but glad that it is not infringing on 2peas TOU.
You said that so much better than I did. That's exactly what I meant to say. I'm very relieved that it's not a TOU violation.



~Patricia~
If I have to use all this paper before I die, I'll live forever!



tracylynn
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Posted: 3/23/2013 12:08:52 AM

Except I don't understand why SG is not ok while other kit clubs are


There difference with SG now, is that they now have an online store which is direct competition to 2Peas.


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