Did you see that Secretary Panetta dropped the ban on women in combat this afternoon?

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Posted 1/23/2013 by Sarah*H in NSBR Board
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Sarah*H
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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:54:12 PM
Just like that.



BuckeyeSandy
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:16:47 PM
No, had not seen it.


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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:28:35 PM
Yes, and it's about time.







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MellyW
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:32:48 PM

I did not see that. And I'll ITA with Kath, 'bout damn time!

Maryland
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:04:21 PM
Yes!!! That is wonderful news. It should be news as they should have never banned women.

I may have to take my 3 girls out for ice cream to celebrate tonight!


mapchic
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:21:15 PM
Just curious... those of you who say that it's about time... did you serve? Will you encourage your daughters to seek combat positions in the military?




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lucyg819
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:21:20 PM
It feels weird to be cheering for sending anyone into battle, but ... yay!! Three cheers!


LUCYG
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Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:23:01 PM
Hmm...wonder if the draft will be next?

How many of you would be comfortable with your little girls being drafted to the front lines? You know...since they are allowed to be in combat positions now.

busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:25:24 PM


I believe in equal rights for women, period.

I wouldn't want my daughter to go into combat, but nor would I want my son to.

Women should be allowed to defend their country just as men are, if that is what they want to do.

jjpswife
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:27:03 PM

I believe in equal rights for women, period.

I wouldn't want my daughter to go into combat, but nor would I want my son to.

Women should be allowed to defend their country just as men are, if that is what they want to do.


Yep!! That!



Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:29:19 PM
Yay for women, but what about the men that they serve with?

Listen I'm all for equal rights if they are equal, but women in the military do not have to meet the same physical standards as the men.

mapchic
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:31:53 PM

Women should be allowed to defend their country just as men are, if that is what they want to do.
I would agree.

I do think it is important that standards be exactly the same for both genders and there be no 'special' treatment for women.

My concern is that if there are relaxed standards or special treatment it can lead to a degradation of our front line forces effectiveness.




"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

myshelly
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:32:29 PM

How many of you would be comfortable with your little girls being drafted to the front lines? You know...since they are allowed to be in combat positions now.



I am so confused and saddened by comments like this.

Are there really any moms anywhere who are perfectly ok with their SONS being drafted to the front lines? Why is drafting daughters worse? Do we value the lives of daughters more than sons?







jodster70
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:36:10 PM
I have mixed feelings about this. It's one thing if a woman *wants* to be in combat, but a different thing entirely if she doesn't.

If the draft were reinstated, and I were of an age to be drafted, I would *not* do well in a combat situation. I think a man's makeup is more suited to combat situations.

I realize I probably will be flamed for this, but that's okay. I'm not a feminist, and will never be a feminist, and so I see things differently. There's nothing wrong with being a feminist, I am just not one.


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busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:36:19 PM

I am so confused and saddened by comments like this.

Are there really any moms anywhere who are perfectly ok with their SONS being drafted to the front lines? Why is drafting daughters worse? Do we value the lives of daughters more than sons?

ITA

That line of thinking is so disturbing. Daughters are no more precious than sons.

Sue_Pea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:39:03 PM

Women should be allowed to defend their country just as men are, if that is what they want to do.
I would agree.

I do think it is important that standards be exactly the same for both genders and there be no 'special' treatment for women.

My concern is that if there are relaxed standards or special treatment it can lead to a degradation of our front line forces effectiveness.


I agree wholeheartedly.


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busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:39:10 PM

I have mixed feelings about this. It's one thing if a woman *wants* to be in combat, but a different thing entirely if she doesn't.

If the draft were reinstated, and I were of an age to be drafted, I would *not* do well in a combat situation. I think a man's makeup is more suited to combat situations.

I realize I probably will be flamed for this, but that's okay. I'm not a feminist, and will never be a feminist, and so I see things differently. There's nothing wrong with being a feminist, I am just not one.

Sure, lots of women aren't right for combat zones. And IF the draft were ever reinstated, there are plenty of men would would be drafted that wouldn't be well suited to combat situations either. But there are also plenty of women and men who would be as well suited as anyone could be for combat.

lucyg819
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:39:30 PM

My concern is that if there are relaxed standards or special treatment it can lead to a degradation of our front line forces effectiveness

"Front line combat" is no longer (generally speaking) dependent on brute strength the way it was in past generations. Your daughter won't be riding into battle on a destrier, carrying a club and a long sword. Most fighting is done from a distance now, often using technology, and involves brains as well as brawn.


LUCYG
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Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:40:06 PM
Polls have already shown that people would not favor drafting women.

I think women have definite skills that can be utilized. It's proven that they generally have sharper eyesight and quicker reaction times and make excellent snipers, for example. But, not all women could carry your 180+ pound husband to safety if he were to get shot.

But, I also don't think all men are qualified to be in combat positions. I think people should test on specific skill sets to see if they are suitable.

Women are already in positions that place them in combat, whether the ruling was made or not. This does allow them to advance in their careers, so that's a plus. I just hope the ruling wasn't made in haste and put people in positions that they do not belong in.

Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:40:55 PM

"Front line combat" is no longer (generally speaking) dependent on brute strength the way it was in past generations. Your daughter won't be riding into battle on a destrier, carrying a club and a long sword. Most fighting is done from a distance now, often using technology, and involves brains as well as brawn.


Do you know any 11Bs?? LOL

lucyg819
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:44:41 PM

I think women have definite skills that can be utilized. It's proven that they generally have sharper eyesight and quicker reaction times and make excellent snipers, for example. But, not all women could carry your 180+ pound husband to safety if he were to get shot, for example.

But, I also don't think all men are qualified to be in combat positions. I think people should test on specific skill sets to see if they are suitable.

Women are already in positions that place them in combat, whether the ruling was made or not. This does allow them to advance in their careers, so that's a plus. I just hope the ruling wasn't made in haste and put people in positions that they do not belong in.

I do agree with all that.


LUCYG
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--Bertrand Russell



cycworker
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:45:57 PM

I am so confused and saddened by comments like this.

Are there really any moms anywhere who are perfectly ok with their SONS being drafted to the front lines? Why is drafting daughters worse? Do we value the lives of daughters more than sons?


I have to agree.


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momofkandn
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:46:12 PM
It's about time. As long as the physical tests are the same to qualify, I have no problem with it. Last I heard there were some positions and promotions that were unavailable to women because they require combat experience. I'm happy now that all positions are open to women.

As far as a draft goes, my feelings are the same. As long as the women have to meet the same physical standards as men, I'm fine with it. And I have 3 daughters. I don't think they should be excluded just because they are female.

Carolina Girl 71
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:46:23 PM
Do you know any 03xx Marines? It most certainly is done up close and personal.

This is what infantry Marines need to do -


can carry 900 7.62 rounds, a spare barrel, a canteen of clp, a gallon of water, and a M240 machine gun 4-8 clicks everyday in 120 degree temperatures for 7 months


4-8 clicks = 4-8 Kilometers

and if their buddy gets shot, they need to be able to carry the buddy + gear out of harm's way.

Sons are no less precious than daughters, but this is my son's choice. And putting females who are not physically able to keep up puts him and her at deadly risk.

I'm not in favor of it at all.


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scrapsuzy
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:47:54 PM

Listen I'm all for equal rights if they are equal, but women in the military do not have to meet the same physical standards as the men.


This is my issue with women in the military, period. I'm all for it, including in combat positions, but they should have to meet the same physical requirements. As a woman, *I* would not want to be given any special treatment like easier PT tests!

Equal should be equal BOTH WAYS.


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Maryland
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:48:59 PM
Well, I don't think anyone should be forced to serve in the military if they don't want to. Draft either. And I don't ever want wars. But I wouldn't want my son to have to serve any more than I would want my daughter to have to serve. That's how I look at it. Allowing both to serve if they want to but not forcing either to serve.

I believe in equal rights for BOTH genders. So I think it's a win for equal rights, but I wish there were never ever wars.

busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:51:12 PM

Sons are no less precious than daughters, but this is my son's choice. And putting females who are not physically able to keep up puts him and her at deadly risk.

Where in the world are you getting the idea that the women will not be physically capable? Or not her choice?

No one is talking about reinstating the draft and taking every Tom, Tina, Dick and Jane and throwing them on the front lines whether they want to be there or not and regardless of capability. NO ONE.

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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:51:57 PM
I am also not a feminist. I believe that if women are to fight on the front lines, they will have to pass EXACTLY the same tests and courses as the men. No exceptions. And this is my reason why:

My concern is that if there are relaxed standards or special treatment it can lead to a degradation of our front line forces effectiveness.


If women are put to the same standards as the men, I can't imagine many women making it through. Not being harsh, just stating facts.



Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:52:50 PM

No one is talking about reinstating the draft and taking every Tom, Tina, Dick and Jane and throwing them on the front lines whether they want to be there or not and regardless of capability. NO ONE.


Yet.

I believe Secretary Panetta dropped this ban this afternoon without asking us, didn't he?

And, there is talk of reinstating the draft. HR5741 was brought up in 2010. Retired Army General Stanley McChrystal made this statement last summer that brought it up again,


I think we ought to have a draft. I think if a nation goes to war, it shouldn't be solely represented by a professional force, because it gets to be unrepresentative of the population. I think if a nation goes to war, every town, every city needs to be at risk. You make that decision and everybody has skin in the game."


So, the idea has not gone away.

Maryland
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:54:08 PM
What Busypea said.

Stinky Rose
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:56:54 PM

Where in the world are you getting the idea that the women will not be physically capable?
You're kidding, right?



mapchic
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:57:50 PM

"Front line combat" is no longer (generally speaking) dependent on brute strength the way it was in past generations. Your daughter won't be riding into battle on a destrier, carrying a club and a long sword. Most fighting is done from a distance now, often using technology, and involves brains as well as brawn.
The modern infantry carries 80-100 lbs for substantial distances. They need to be able to carry injured fellow soldiers if necessary.

Few women will be able to do that.

Sure, they won't be carrying a club and a long sword... but modern armaments are not light. A Barrett 50 cal snip[er rifle weighs 30 lbs. -and that isn't counting ammunition. So even if a woman is fighting from a distance as a sniper... she will have to be able to carry her gear.

Women are already doing the distance 'brains over brawn' military work. This is about front line combat positions where brawn still counts for a heck of a lot.

I think there are many positions in which women excel in the military. I don't think that *most* women have the physical ability to participate in front line combat positions to the same level as men. If exceptions are made both the women the exceptions are made for and the men serving with them will be endangered.




"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

Annabella
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:07:43 PM
I'm not a fan of this. Sure women can be injured just being on a base, but now the casualties are going to be higher for women.




busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:08:56 PM

Where in the world are you getting the idea that the women will not be physically capable?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're kidding, right?

No, I'm not.

Many man can't pass the physical requirements. Neither could many women. Men and women who can't pass the physical requirements won't be there on the front lines. Thus, the women on the front lines will be physically capable of performing the necessary tasks. Not joking.

busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:10:01 PM

Sure women can be injured just being on a base, but now the casualties are going to be higher for women.

So?

Again, are women's lives somehow more valuable then men's? Why is it OK for men to be slaughtered in war, but not women?

Elenort
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:10:24 PM
you must think that the current requirements for men and women are the same. They are not. Unless they change that, you will have women in combat positions that are not as physically capable as men.


busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:14:11 PM
I think physical requirements for positions should be the same regardless of gender. I don't necessarily think that all positions need to have the same physical requirements - they should be based on what is needed for that position - but on a per position basis, the requirements should be the same for men and women.

maryannscraps
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:14:32 PM
I'm completely in favor of it. It's about time.

Women should have the same opportunity for those positions, and pass the same physical requirements as men. Nobody is saying all women should be in combat -- but the ones who are qualified should have the opportunity.

Annabella
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:15:52 PM

Many man can't pass the physical requirements. Neither could many women. Men and women who can't pass the physical requirements won't be there on the front lines. Thus, the women on the front lines will be physically capable of performing the necessary tasks. Not joking.

I didn't know it was a test, just thought it was random order. Or are you saying there's a special unit in the front, like the marines?




missbitts
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:16:43 PM
I'm all for women being able to hold front-line combat positions, and since they now can, they need to be required to register for the selective service once they turn 18 just like men are.

My biggest worry is that while I believe they should and will be required to pass the same physical fitness requirement of men, those requirements will, over time, be relaxed. This has happened in police forces and fire departments across the county. Enough women can't physically compete with the men, a discrimination alarm is sounded, and standards are changed to accommodate what is wanted instead of what is best.

Yes, I served.

busypea
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:18:23 PM

A senior military official says the services will develop plans for allowing women to seek the combat positions. Some jobs may open as soon as this year. Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALS and the Army's Delta Force, may take longer.

The official said the military chiefs must report back to Panetta with their initial implementation plans by May 15. The announcement on Panetta's decision is not expected until Thursday, so the official spoke on condition of anonymity.


This is not just a willy-nilly, all women can now be in combat positions without any addition requirements and qualifications. I highly doubt that is what the military chiefs are going to recommend.

Tserenity
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:25:23 PM
For the record, this is not actually new news, even though main stream media makes it seem that way...nor are they just taking women and throwing them into the front lines...this has been under speculation and planning for some time...certain MOSs will be opened, not all...here is one older article about it.. Women in combat my son was in one of the last classes to go through Benning when it was strictly male recruits... One or two classes after his had females training alongside the men Fort Benning Prepares for Female Recruits

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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:25:44 PM

"Front line combat" is no longer (generally speaking) dependent on brute strength the way it was in past generations. Your daughter won't be riding into battle on a destroyer, carrying a club and a long sword. Most fighting is done from a distance now, often using technology, and involves brains as well as brawn.
This is specifically for "smaller ground combat units," not fighting from a distance.


Assessments for others, such as special operations forces, including Navy SEALS and the Army's Delta Force, may take longer.
Haha! Try "may take FOREVER" as in there is no woman that could pass the physical standards required of these units. My DH is an Army Ranger and there's just absolutely no way. Especially with certain things females have to deal with physically that men do not.

A female MIGHT be able to make a SEAL team because their tests and courses to make it in are much easier and lenient than the Rangers or Delta Force, but they would still have to make exceptions, and that is not an option.



joyce22
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:27:19 PM
1. Will he also make females sign up for selective service?

2. Will he require one PT standard for all now instead of standards based on gender?

3. Will the service academies now go to one standard?

If Panetta thinks this needs to be done, it needs to be equal across the board. I'm all for equality, but let's not stop short.

lucyg819
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:46:01 PM

And, there is talk of reinstating the draft. HR5741 was brought up in 2010. Retired Army General Stanley McChrystal made this statement last summer that brought it up again,

I think we ought to have a draft. I think if a nation goes to war, it shouldn't be solely represented by a professional force, because it gets to be unrepresentative of the population. I think if a nation goes to war, every town, every city needs to be at risk. You make that decision and everybody has skin in the game."


Believe it or not, I agree with this. I think there ought to be a draft in times of war.


LUCYG
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BuckeyeSandy
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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:28:25 PM
As someone that has "been there"

Most of you have no clue about this. Seriously. This is NOT some Hollywood pic. It is not an academic discussion. It is NOT about an elite few that want their military careers to mirror their fathers' or grandfathers.'

Women that have no reason, are not physically qualified, WILL be on the front lines. They will be serious injured from the normal training, let alone combat.

There are a number of publicly unforeseen consequences that will come from this afternoon's action.

When I enlisted in the late 1970s I was put into a "non-traditional" career field because I was female. Not because I had an aptitude, or the skills, or whether I could physically do the routine work . The only reason I was in that "slot" was that I was female and there was a quota to have "x" number of females.

(edited to add: At that time I was 5'5", and weigh all of 100 lbs soaking wet! I have a small frame. Look up petite and you would have found me. My ASVAB scores were in the 90s for all sections. I was an honor grad from fundamental electronics. )

The superintendent of my "school house" (tech school) took one look at me and said "oh hell no". And tried to get me into another slot. (eta) Small guys didn't make it in that career field, let alone a little petite gal.

He was not able to. I was in a position where the tool box weighs 50 lbs, the equipment was all over 50 lbs and most of the places on the aircraft were barely big enough for one person to get in, let alone two to lift the component into place.

I was in that position for just over two years, the stuff I could do, I did better than my male peers, and even a few of female ones too. But it took a toll, I was on "weight waivers" (medical duty restrictions) too often. (Repetitive joint injuries. )

My records were forwarded to meet a classification to determine if I was going to be allowed to retrain into another career field or separated from the USAF.

And you know what? It has not changed much in the last thirty years either!

I DO know what really happens verses what people think will happen.

Yes, I served, proudly too. I was glad to have able to serve my country in uniform.



Sandy
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"Retired" after 22 years of an Air Force Career

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pudgy_groundhog
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PeaNut 113,457
October 2003
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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:33:35 PM

Haha! Try "may take FOREVER" as in there is no woman that could pass the physical standards required of these units. My DH is an Army Ranger and there's just absolutely no way. Especially with certain things females have to deal with physically that men do not.

A female MIGHT be able to make a SEAL team because their tests and courses to make it in are much easier and lenient than the Rangers or Delta Force, but they would still have to make exceptions, and that is not an option.


From the story I heard on the radio today, they have three years to define positions that are exempt from this policy - such as the Navy Seals and other elite groups that have more stringent physical requirements. I really don't think they are going to take a bunch of women who can't pass physical standards and put them in combat positions for which they aren't fit.

The story also mentioned the physical tests and how there are women already serving in some capacity in the combat zones (security detail, etc). I think if there is a position for which a woman can meet the standards, she should have the opportunity.





jjmj94
PeaAddict

PeaNut 9,001
January 2001
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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:56:41 PM

Do you know any 03xx Marines? It most certainly is done up close and personal.

This is what infantry Marines need to do -

can carry 900 7.62 rounds, a spare barrel, a canteen of clp, a gallon of water, and a M240 machine gun 4-8 clicks everyday in 120 degree temperatures for 7 months


4-8 clicks = 4-8 Kilometers

and if their buddy gets shot, they need to be able to carry the buddy + gear out of harm's way.

Sons are no less precious than daughters, but this is my son's choice. And putting females who are not physically able to keep up puts him and her at deadly risk.

I'm not in favor of it at all.



I was about to write this exact thing, my hubs was an 03 the first 8 years of his MC career and there is no way I would want a female out there with him. He is a computer guy now but there are still times where the females just can't do the physical work ( digging and burying cables, lifting equipment etc) and it makes it harder on the guys even though the females passed their PFT.


Meri
Wife to a wonderful Marine and mom to my 3 L's!

*Kath*
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February 2000
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Posted: 1/23/2013 7:13:20 PM

"Front line combat" is no longer (generally speaking) dependent on brute strength the way it was in past generations. Your daughter won't be riding into battle on a destrier, carrying a club and a long sword. Most fighting is done from a distance now, often using technology, and involves brains as well as brawn.

I agree with this.

And just because it's the way it's always been done doesn't mean it's the smartest way. There are always better ways to do things and there are options in incorporating women into all positions.

If a women can't do the one part of the job that requires brute strength, have a man do that part as a team, but that doesn't mean she can't still hold the position and do everything but that one brute strength part.

There are always options to doing things better and more reasonably while still using everyone's talents and abilities, regardless if they are male or female.

Are we really saying that all 230,000 of those jobs that have just opened up to women require brute strength at a certain level all the time or they can't be done? What are we doing, building pyramids?



--------------------
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Cutesuzyq
BucketHead

PeaNut 96,863
July 2003
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Posted: 1/23/2013 7:49:42 PM
To bad that a large number of them will end up getting pg to get out of having to do combat duty.


Suzanne
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