What are your thoughts on the Amish...? esp in regards to puppy mills..
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 1/28/2013 by misshair in NSBR Board
 

misshair
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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:27:43 AM
They certainly are not the Amish of the old days.
link
They can do as they please in regards to modernization, but the puppy mills
is pretty upsetting..


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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:40:37 AM
It's pretty common. The Amish that you go to look at and shop from aren't exactly the same as the Amish communities that aren't kept pretty for tourists.
There are of course some very, very good people in that community but there are equally terrible things that you see everyday.

This was less than 3 miles from my house in October. Watching those dogs transferred from one van to others for transport at the gas station was heartbreaking. This farm is directly across the street from their schoolhouse Puppy Mill




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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:56:12 AM
IMO, they are exactly the amish of old days. All that has changed is the internet allows more people to see the reality instead of just the tourist facade.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 7:24:39 AM
I think puppy mills are deplorable no matter who is running them.

I think the Amish are people and vary. Just like not all Catholics, Baptists, or Methodists are a certain way with no deviation so too is not with the Amish. I'm sure they have their a#%holes too.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 7:56:49 AM
Puppy mills just break my heart. I am a huge animal
Lover. How anyone with a soul could look at those faces and living conditions and be ok with themselves I will never know.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 7:57:54 AM
That is terrible! Should be illegal to treat dogs that way.

melanell
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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:05:30 AM
Living in NEPA, it's pretty well known to be very leery of any dogs for sale from Lancaster county.

It's unfortunate for those who are living there and not running puppy mills, of course, but you just feel a good dose of concern when you see a sign advertising puppies in that area.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:16:50 AM
Learning about their involvement in puppy mills HAS indeed changed my opinion on them. Previously, I had a neutral to slightly possitive view of them. After hearing their views on animals, it's changed my feelings about them for sure.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:26:24 AM
Just b/c someone is 'religious' does not make them a good person. And this is regardless of the religion they practice. Someone who profits on treating living creatures that way is not a good person. Period.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:27:39 AM
Of course their is individual variation but as a general rule I think the way they treat animals is right in step with how they conduct the rest of their lives. They use animals a a simple commodity like wheat or oats and feel for them only in the sense that they reflect an investment. It really is a snapshot as to how those of us living in the "modern" world have changed. Their point of view and conduct would have been seen a completely acceptable 200 years ago.

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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:30:58 AM
Hasn't changed my opinion of the Amish as a people. But I certainly think that Amish puppy mill operators are just as disgusting as non-Amish puppy mill operators.

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Posted: 1/28/2013 8:35:45 AM

so while we rise up in outrage over dogs and cats from mills, because they're cute and all, the standards should be high for all livestock.


This is a good point and it's in line with humane treatment of animals in general. I remember this discussion in the book Eating Animals.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 9:17:36 AM

Of course their is individual variation but as a general rule I think the way they treat animals is right in step with how they conduct the rest of their lives. They use animals a a simple commodity like wheat or oats and feel for them only in the sense that they reflect an investment. It really is a snapshot as to how those of us living in the "modern" world have changed. Their point of view and conduct would have been seen a completely acceptable 200 years ago.


I thought the Amish treated their cattle well, those cows were the ones that gave them milk and tilled their soil?

So your point is that they can pretend to live a life as it was 200 years ago yet build metal cages, harvest puppies and sell them and make thousands of dollars a year? How is that the Amish way?

Did the Amish breed dogs for food 200 years ago? Did the Amish breed good hunting dogs, I dont know. What I do know that the video shows many distressed dogs and I just dont like that

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Posted: 1/28/2013 9:24:43 AM
Evil is everywhere.
Humane Society's Dirty Dozen in Missouri These pups end up at stores around the nation and, yes, even at those "responsible breeders" who tell you they "own both the parents."





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IleneTell
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Posted: 1/28/2013 9:30:48 AM
I agree with Nightowl completely on this.

And I also think we should have the same standards for all animals we sell, including the smaller animals sold in pet stores. Compared to them, dogs have it pretty good.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 9:37:42 AM

The Amish that you go to look at and shop from aren't exactly the same as the Amish communities that aren't kept pretty for tourists.


This is their way of life. NO one tells them to keep their place "pretty" for tourists. Keeping the house/garden/farm in very good condition is a part of their life and not for tourism.

I grew up in Waterloo County (Ontario) and have been educated on the various types of mennonites, amish, old-order, etc. It has been many years since I lived there but I still have close family in the area.

The way of their life probably has changed, however, do not base a religious group as "all as one" without really learning about the history of it.

The same goes for Catholic, Bapist (not ALL are Ssouth-Bapist), etc.

Puppy mills are a choice for both the breeder and the purchaser. If no one purchases a puppy from a puppy mill, the laws of economics will follow. (usually)

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Posted: 1/28/2013 9:44:07 AM

But I think that standard should apply to any livestock. No one should be raising any animal in filthy or inhumane conditions, without concern for genetic issues, and the long-term well-being of the animal or the purchasers (consumers, in the case of a cow).

so while we rise up in outrage over dogs and cats from mills, because they're cute and all, the standards should be high for all livestock. And the religion of the farmers shouldn't be an issue. there are inhumane farmers of all sorts of religions, and of no religion whatsoever.

This.

Our collective societal horror over puppy mills pales in comparison to the way that the great majority of cattle, chickens and other animals for consumption are treated in the US. Are puppy mills more horrible, simply because they are domesticated house pets?



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Posted: 1/28/2013 10:10:23 AM
It astonishes me that we get all bent out of shape over puppies (and I absolutely do too), but have no problem eating meat from animals that have been kept in the most inhumane conditions and killed in horrific brutality. Because we wouldn't want to give up our meat now would we??? So we turn a blind eye to that.

I admire my meat-eating DH (I, personally am a vegetarian). He loves veal, but hasn't touched it in years because of the way the little calves are treated.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 10:27:21 AM
WATCH THE VIDEO. It is horrible the way these dogs are treated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So sad!

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Posted: 1/28/2013 10:38:47 AM

He loves veal, but hasn't touched it in years because of the way the little calves are treated.

A little over a year ago DH and I really put our money where our mouth was (literally) and transitioned to humane, grassfed, pastured beef, chicken, pork and eggs. It has cost us a small fortune, but it's well worth it in the long run. We've visited the farms, we know the farmers and we consume meat knowing that it's completely humane, and part of the natural life-cycle and ecosystem of the farms they are sourced from. And, we feel less hypocritical when we get all indignant about puppy mills



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Posted: 1/28/2013 10:39:05 AM
not reading the linked story (yet) but I agree with this:


Of course their is individual variation but as a general rule I think the way they treat animals is right in step with how they conduct the rest of their lives. They use animals a a simple commodity like wheat or oats and feel for them only in the sense that they reflect an investment. It really is a snapshot as to how those of us living in the "modern" world have changed. Their point of view and conduct would have been seen a completely acceptable 200 years ago.






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Posted: 1/28/2013 11:11:39 AM
I find it beyond disgusting and I have actually stopped buying anything Amish. I do not understand how such disgusting operations are able to continue!



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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:07:35 PM

But I certainly think that Amish puppy mill operators are just as disgusting as non-Amish puppy mill operators.



I agree. It's not that they are Amish. It's their actions that are disgusting.

I live in Amish country and can honestly say that we do not have a problem with puppy mills here. Meth labs are more of a problem in our Amish community.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:18:26 PM

I certainly think that Amish puppy mill operators are just as disgusting as non-Amish puppy mill operators.


Of course that's true. But people have an image of the Amish that they are above reproach. Not the fault of the Amish that they have this image. Religion or practice or culture or observance does not make any individual better than another. There are good people and bad people in all religions and cultures. We have to remember that.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:27:14 PM

Amish and Mennonite farmers have publically stated that dogs are livestock and there is no difference between a dog and a cow.




This doesn't surprise me at all. Treating dogs as second to humans is a first world thing, the Amish live in a different world. I'm sure their personal dogs who work the farm with them stay outside. It does make me wonder how they treat their chickens if they can let dogs live in pile high fecal matter.




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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:53:16 PM

So your point is that they can pretend to live a life as it was 200 years ago yet build metal cages, harvest puppies and sell them and make thousands of dollars a year? How is that the Amish way?


No my point is that they in general view all animals as products or tools. They don't elevate them to the status of "fur kids" or fret over their feelings. They use animals in they way they feel they were intended to be used as food, as a tool to get a job done or as a source of income. I believe this line of thinking was much more common 200 years ago.

I personally don't agree with it but at the same time I can't say my own habits are some cruelty free form of perfection. I have no idea how the cow I ate last night lived it's life or if the chicken on the menu tonight had a full and fulfilling life before it was packaged for my convenience. I applied make-up today that I'm simply trusting was as cruelty-free as the label claims.

The best I can do is not buy puppies from pet stores, support laws that more tightly control how animals are treated and encourage people I know IRL to do the same. Trying to actually change the mindset of people who think puppy mills are okay is pointless the only thing they understand is supply, demand and fines imposed by law.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 12:54:07 PM
I'm not watching a video right now, but have seen what I assume are similar ones in the past. It's my understanding, as others have said, that they are simply a commodity to these folks. They may or may not even have names.

We own a horse who originally came from an Amish family. Horses may have it worse than dogs in a way. They are "broken" and then used until they are no longer able to do the job for which they were intended. Our horse is plenty fine for us, but to the Amish she was used up by the age of 8 or so.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 1:40:38 PM

Our collective societal horror over puppy mills pales in comparison to the way that the great majority of cattle, chickens and other animals for consumption are treated in the US. Are puppy mills more horrible, simply because they are domesticated house pets?

Please don't say the "great majority." I live in rural Kansas, there are tons of farms/ranches here that raise cattle. I haven't seen one that treats their animals in an inhumane way. I know there are large corporations out there that do, and it makes me sad. But we need to concentrate on them making changes, not the small farmers and ranchers who do it right and humanely (like around where I live). Please don't lump them all together and assume they are all being treated badly. Thank you.

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Posted: 1/28/2013 1:51:46 PM
Sadly, those livestock giants are pushing the little farmers out. It's beginning to be too expensive to feed just a small amount of cattle and the demand for grass fed is also not helping. There is simply not enough pasture in this country to grass feed all or even most of the cattle.

There have been Amish puppy mills in our area that prompted new (although still lame) laws for dog breeders. It's only a band-aid though. That said, when we go to a town about 20 miles from here to get rabbit feed and to go to kroger (the only one around) we often see an Amish couple with their horse and buggy. The last time we went it was snowing a little and they put a blanket on the horse before they went into the store.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 4:08:46 PM

The Amish that you go to look at and shop from aren't exactly the same as the Amish communities that aren't kept pretty for tourists.


This is their way of life. NO one tells them to keep their place "pretty" for tourists. Keeping the house/garden/farm in very good condition is a part of their life and not for tourism.

I grew up in Waterloo County (Ontario) and have been educated on the various types of mennonites, amish, old-order, etc. It has been many years since I lived there but I still have close family in the area.

The way of their life probably has changed, however, do not base a religious group as "all as one" without really learning about the history of it.

The same goes for Catholic, Bapist (not ALL are Ssouth-Bapist), etc.

Puppy mills are a choice for both the breeder and the purchaser. If no one purchases a puppy from a puppy mill, the laws of economics will follow. (usually)


The tourism police certainly don't come in and tell them to keep it pretty but they're smart enough to know that tourists aren't going to flock to Amish country to see the ugly things that go on. Different orders and different locations have different ideas of 'good condition' and just as you can't say every Amish family runs a puppy mill it's silly to say or think that they are all as pristine as what you see when you visit an Amish tourist attraction. It's very commercialized and by nature that's going to be a little different than the 'real world'.

According to a quick search in 2010 there were 35 church districts in Canada, 434 in Ohio. Canadian population was 5,000 Ohio population was over 60,000 I literally can't leave my house without passing a buggy. I'm pretty familiar with the locals, we hang out on Wednesdays at the auctions and i'm definitely familiar enough to know that puppy mills suck and somethings things just aren't pretty.




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Posted: 1/28/2013 4:26:20 PM

I find it beyond disgusting and I have actually stopped buying anything Amish. I do not understand how such disgusting operations are able to continue!


White person charged with puppy mill
So now you can't buy from any white people

Female charged with puppy mill crimes

So now you can't buy from any females.


Ooo.. and Michael Vick is a male and black.

So based on your "i will not buy anything Amish" moral code then you can't buy anything made by or from a white person, a black person, a male or a female.


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Posted: 1/28/2013 4:30:42 PM
If I knew puppies were as delicious as cows, I might eat them, too. I'll readily admit if I had to slaughter my own meat, I couldn't do it.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 4:32:51 PM
I live in an area where there are several Mennonite communities. I have no illusions about the Amish being The Gentle People. The person quoted in the article was correct - there is so much abuse of women, children and animals and people turn a blind eye.
I once confronted one of the Gentle People in a parking lot. His horse was a bag of bones - and I told him that when Jesus said "Feed My SHeep" he didn't mean just the sheep only. Yeah - his reaction was very gentle. He started screaming at me in german and shaking his fist at me - I thought I was going to have to call the cops.



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Posted: 1/28/2013 4:43:25 PM
I don't live in an Amish area but close enough to it. I have worked with dog rescue and have friends in horse rescue. The Amish are a very harsh people in regards to their animals. There have been cases of them shooting lots of animals rather than comply with the law on the books here. It is despicable and many (not all) Amish are despicable. Don't let the bonnets and the perception of a simple, gentile way of life fool you - it's all about money.

I hope we see more prosecutions for animal cruety.
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