Don't like I like what Pittsburgh is doing
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 2/3/2013 by firepaws in NSBR Board
 

firepaws
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:31:07 AM
According to this news article, they are suspending breathalyzer testing in lew of blood test at dui stops. Really? Not only will they be able to test for all kinds of things both legal and non legal, they will have a dna sample of each person. Some of you may disagree but I really think this is infringing. My concern is say you are taking antidepressants, what limit are they going to put I don't know it just really makes me feel like big brother is infringing... link

State Police

dizzypea
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:33:41 AM
Don't drink and drive and it won't be an issue.



scrappower
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:42:51 AM
I see no issue. And what do antidepressants have to do with this?



angievp
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:43:28 AM

State Police don’t see the suspension of breathalyzer use affecting them that much.

“In the majority of our cases blood is drawn versus someone having to take a breathalyzer,” says Trooper Robin Mungo, of Pennsylvania State Police.

Under current law, police have two hours to have blood drawn from suspected DUI drivers




1) it's not only Pittsburg. It seems this is a state-wide issue.

2) According to the section quoted above, the drawing blood is already permitted, so it's not a newfangled "Big Brother" initiative. It seems that the only difference is that now, the blood will be drawn at a checkpoint, and not "within two hours" and offsite.

3) It seems the impetus for the use of blood tests as opposed to breathalizer is that the breathalizer is not accurate, and its validity is being challenged in the courts (hence the notation indicating that the superior court has yet to rule on the validity of the test)

4) Exactly what "right" is Big Brother infringing upon? There doesn't exist a "constitutional right to drive." I bet if you looked at the back of your driver's license, it will say that the state has the right to take your license away if you decide to withhold consent to breathalizer/and or blood testing. That's one of the conditions your jurisdiction imposes on you in exchange for the PRIVILEGE to drive.


angievp
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:55:38 AM
Chapter 15 of the Pennsylvania motor vehicle code

Section 1547 should be of particular interest to you.

Georgiapea
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Posted: 2/3/2013 11:05:45 AM
If you are taking anti-depressants at higher than legal limits then perhaps you should not be driving and should self police yourself.

If you are a law abiding citizen you have nothing to fear from having your DNA on file.

People who drive erratically enough to be noticed by police officers bring the consequences of their actions on themselves.

auntkelly
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Posted: 2/3/2013 11:08:45 AM
I don't have a problem w/ them drawing blood from drivers who are actually suspected of driving under the influence. When I first saw your post I thought they were drawing blood from all drivers at DUI check points. However, the article seems to say that blood is only drawn from those who are actually suspected of DUI.


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slkmommy
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Posted: 2/3/2013 11:46:32 AM
I have no problem at all with it. If the only substances in your body are prescribed ones, even if they show in the blood test (doubtful they'd be looking for anything other than blood alcohol though) then there's no issue



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tamhugh
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Posted: 2/3/2013 11:52:59 AM

However, the article seems to say that blood is only drawn from those who are actually suspected of DUI.



Nope, it is just the people who would normally have to be issued a breathalyzer. I believe it is statewide, because it is happening in Eastern PA as well. I hope it helps cut down on the DUIs.

Darkangel090260
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Posted: 2/3/2013 11:56:02 AM
I sorry, But I do not like this blood draw by non medical personal. This is just a way to collected DNA samples with out people being able to say yes or no to it. This take away people rights to say no to DNA testing.

way to much big brother for me.


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cmpeter
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:11:39 PM
I didn't think the police did the actual blood draw. They take you to the hospital for that. Which is why they have 2 hours to draw the blood.


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blondiek237
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:13:44 PM
What are they going to do about pot. You may not have smoked for days and be perfectly fine but the test will be positive. I am a law abiding citizen and I do not want my DNA on file. Sure it may be fine now, but no one knows what will happen in 10-15 years from now

dynalady
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:23:41 PM

What are they going to do about pot. You may not have smoked for days and be perfectly fine but the test will be positive. I am a law abiding citizen


A law abiding citizen won't have been smoking pot that day or days before.

I don't have any problem with this, or see any reason everyone's DNA shouldn't be on file. You have no right to be driving in a way that threatens to endanger others.







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basketdiva
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:24:01 PM
I'm confused- where does it say that your DNA will be kept on file or that they will even being doing any DNA testing. So long as the blood sample is destroyed upon completion of the test, what's the problem?

Lmz1234
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:32:16 PM
It's actually the Pennsylvania State Police who are doing this. Pittsburgh police still do breathalyzer tests as the initial form of testing. There are limits as to what they can test for. DNA is not something they can test for without just cause and a warrant. As for non-medical personnel performing the blood draws... nope, not going to happen. The blood will be drawn by medically trained personnel and secured just as it is in a hospital setting when they do the draws at DUI checkpoints. And taken to hospitals for the staff there to run the tests, just like they do when they take the person to the hospital. As for the anti-depressants, they will determine if the levels are impairing your driving. The levels are different for each medication and each person will be given the chance to work with his or her physician to make adjustments. I don't think it's big brother at all. I'm looking at it as further advancement in keeping people safe on the roads.


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firepaws
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:33:52 PM
I don't drink and drive and I don't abuse Drugs in ANY form therefore that is not an issue. The Field sobriety tests are biased in favor of law enforcement so that anyone of you can be pulled aside for further testing at the Officers discretion. Probable cause?
In NHTSA's official SFST validation study for six of seven DUI officers, every driver who was able to take the SFST failed the SFST [BAC 0.04-0.08%]. All the guilty people failed. All the innocent people failed. Everybody failed. In five months every SFST these six trained, certified DRE officers did allowed them to claim probable cause to arrest. Odds are not not in your favor. Even if they do arrest you & the sample comes back clean the damage is already done. Sample bagged & tagged. Death by a thousand cuts. Next Comrade please step forward.

mishkismom
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:39:01 PM
What about pot? Are you kidding?

I think DNA should be on record from everyone in those just in case times. There was a murder here about ten years ago that the poor girl has never been identified.
The one thing about this that worries me is the next town over from me. If you are on the roads after 10pm or so a cop will ruthlessly follow you and wait for you to screw up. I was on my way home from work at midnight when a patrol car pulled out to follow me with his lights off and following too close. He did a few things that made me nervous but I kept going. I tried to file a complaint but was given the run around. That isn't a rare case in Plainville.


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Monklady123
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:49:23 PM
I'm trying to figure out why it's a problem to think our DNA is "on file" somewhere. ? Tell me why I should object to this?

(for the record, I don't.... I mean, isn't DNA 100% accurate? So if you -- generic "you" -- are innocent of any crime then there's no way you could be accused of a crime based on DNA tests, because yours wouldn't match.)



amblet
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:08:34 PM
As an ED nurse we are not allowed to draw blood samples for the police. They are trained to do this themselves as it is their evidence and has nothing to do with medical care.




blondiek237
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:32:27 PM
If someone has medical pot and hasn't had any for 2weeks would still test positive yet they are not impaired. I would rather be on the road with someone that smoked a week ago then someone that has taken a bunch of OTC cold medicine


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SueSume
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:35:31 PM


A law abiding citizen won't have been smoking pot that day or days before.



Unless you live in WA State...


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angievp
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Posted: 2/3/2013 3:18:11 PM

All the guilty people failed. All the innocent people failed. Everybody failed. In five months every SFST these six trained, certified DRE officers did allowed them to claim probable cause to arrest. Odds are not not in your favor. Even if they do arrest you & the sample comes back clean the damage is already done. Sample bagged & tagged. Death by a thousand cuts. Next Comrade please step forward.


Ok, you aren't even making sense here.

angievp
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Posted: 2/3/2013 3:22:35 PM

A law abiding citizen won't have been smoking pot that day or days before.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Unless you live in WA State...


Alhough POT may be legal in some states, you are still not allowed to DRIVE while under the influence of substances that may impair your ability to do so. This can range from improperly taking prescription anti-depressants to other prescriptions such as Percocet (assuming you have a prescription to take it) to OTC meds, such as cold medication, to POT. It's not the "taking" itself of the medication, I'm sure that cops don't care one way or the other if you are in your home taking pot, but they do (and should) care whether you are driving while under the influence.

SueSume
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Posted: 2/3/2013 4:41:49 PM

A law abiding citizen won't have been smoking pot that day or days before.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Unless you live in WA State...


Alhough POT may be legal in some states, you are still not allowed to DRIVE while under the influence of substances that may impair your ability to do so. This can range from improperly taking prescription anti-depressants to other prescriptions such as Percocet (assuming you have a prescription to take it) to OTC meds, such as cold medication, to POT. It's not the "taking" itself of the medication, I'm sure that cops don't care one way or the other if you are in your home taking pot, but they do (and should) care whether you are driving while under the influence.


Very true.

But my point is you CAN be law abiding in my state and still have smoked pot a few days before.


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blondiek237
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Posted: 2/3/2013 4:43:39 PM
And with pot, you smoke today and will still test positive 2-3 weeks later.

Paisleys Garden
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Posted: 2/3/2013 5:37:55 PM

or see any reason everyone's DNA shouldn't be on file.


Because it is private, personal information and this is the United States of America. Our privacy is being compromised bit by bit; they keep pushing it a little further with each new law. Where do we draw the line?

A breathalyser is enough; they don't need a blood sample.


irishscrappermom8
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Posted: 2/3/2013 6:09:20 PM
I'm in IL and I used to work in a hospital lab. The police would bring in people on suspicion of DUI and we'd draw their blood. Either blood draw or breathalyzer is part of what you agree to when you apply for a drivers license.

And I can tell you that you need a special blood draw for DNA testing which is different than the sample you get for alcohol testing. also, DNA testing is still expensive. They're not going to do DNA testing on you just because.





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Posted: 2/3/2013 6:18:48 PM

they will have a dna sample of each person.

Your paranoia is way over the top.

Have you ever had routine blood work ordered by your doctor? Have you ever donated blood? Have you ever been in the hospital? Have you ever given a urine sample for testing? If so, it's possible that there's an archived sample of your blood or urine on a microscope slide somewhere already.


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pea brain
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Posted: 2/3/2013 6:40:23 PM

The Field sobriety tests are biased in favor of law enforcement so that anyone of you can be pulled aside for further testing at the Officers discretion. Probable cause?
In NHTSA's official SFST validation study for six of seven DUI officers, every driver who was able to take the SFST failed the SFST [BAC 0.04-0.08%]. All the guilty people failed. All the innocent people failed. Everybody failed.


Saying part of the alphabet?
Walking heel to toe?
Pointing to your nose?

Yes, these are highly based in favor of law enforcement. I can see how "all the innocent people" failed.

Where did you get these facts?



PEArfect
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:15:30 PM

I'm confused- where does it say that your DNA will be kept on file or that they will even being doing any DNA testing. So long as the blood sample is destroyed upon completion of the test, what's the problem?


I agree. This is nothing new. My dh has been a police officer for 14 years and has taken several violators to the hospital for blood samples.


Saying part of the alphabet?
Walking heel to toe?
Pointing to your nose?

Yes, these are highly based in favor of law enforcement. I can see how "all the innocent people" failed.

Where did you get these facts?


Maybe they asked them to say the alphabet backwards?

I'm sure failing had nothing to do with them driving while impaired.


Jen


guzismom
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:30:09 PM

As an ED nurse we are not allowed to draw blood samples for the police. They are trained to do this themselves as it is their evidence and has nothing to do with medical care.


I don't know where you practice, but in my 20+ years of nursing experience this is simply not the case. Nurses and physicians collect evidence for law enforcement every single day; example: rape test kits. Why would blood be any different?

Even assuming the cops DO draw the blood, it is no big deal. Anyone can be trained to draw blood in about an hour. It is probably one of the easiest tasks I do as a nurse.


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Dalai Mama
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:31:28 PM

(for the record, I don't.... I mean, isn't DNA 100% accurate? So if you -- generic "you" -- are innocent of any crime then there's no way you could be accused of a crime based on DNA tests, because yours wouldn't match.)
No, it's not 100% accurate.

FBI resists scrutiny of 'matches'.


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firepaws
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:36:16 PM

Because it is private, personal information and this is the United States of America. Our privacy is being compromised bit by bit; they keep pushing it a little further with each new law. Where do we draw the line?

A breathalyser is enough; they don't need a blood sample.




THAT was my main point sorry I made it so complicated. Thanks Paisleys Garden

amblet
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:38:05 PM

don't know where you practice, but in my 20+ years of nursing experience this is simply not the case. Nurses and physicians collect evidence for law enforcement every single day; example: rape test kits. Why would blood be any different?

Even assuming the cops DO draw the blood, it is no big deal. Anyone can be trained to draw blood in about an hour. It is probably one of the easiest tasks I do as a nurse.


I agree it is easy and anybody can be trained to do it. I live in Utah, and at least in the ED I work in we do not draw for the police nor do we do the rape kits, we have special trained RN's that come in as SANE nurses to do those.
We are not allowed to give the results of any of the testing we do for medical reasons to the police unless they get a court order and go through medical records.




scrappower
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:39:48 PM
In that article posted by Dalai though, it isn't as cut and dry as DNA not being 100% accurate...


In a typical criminal case, investigators look for matches to a specific profile. But the Arizona search looked for any matches among all the thousands of profiles in the database, greatly increasing the odds of finding them.


So the suspect searches were not what is usually done.

I do agree that we need to have a set way of doing things with DNA testing.

BUT what the OP is talking about is not about taking one's DNA. It is testing for drugs and/or alcohol. Nowhere did they say they are testing your DNA or keeping any of the blood. I find the OP to be a bit overwrought.



Dalai Mama
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Posted: 2/5/2013 2:02:59 PM

In that article posted by Dalai though, it isn't as cut and dry as DNA not being 100% accurate...
Fascinating stuff, right?

It is that cut and dry when it comes to 100% accuracy because, whether or the police target a certain suspect or whether they 'fish' a database, the fact that there is any possibility of them coming across an erroneous match, without even adding the issue of human error, calls the whole process into question.

But you're right, this has nothing to do with the OP. Although, I'm still not okay volunteering a blood sample.


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scrappower
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Posted: 2/5/2013 2:07:22 PM
You are right Dalai, I worded that wrong. Sorry about that.



msbee
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Posted: 2/5/2013 5:40:22 PM
I don't drink and drive. I am very, very careful to allow plenty of time between when I take my meds at night and when I have to leave in the am.

Who is going to pay the legal bills for those who legally smoked pot while in WA state or Colo and then several days later are in PA, get pulled over and have a blood draw at a sobriety check point? Are they going to automatically drop the accusation when you prove you were in WA or Colo?

If you want a blood sample from me you better be talented in getting good draw. I am very hard to get a blood sample from. I would insist they take me to the hospital because someone with an hour of training isn't going to be jabbing my arm with a needle.

I too don't think that it's a good idea for the police to have blood samples because some LEO is a little over enthusiastic.


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