5 year old shoots his 2 year old sister.

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Posted 5/1/2013 by cdnstorelady in NSBR Board
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cdnstorelady
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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:59:50 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/index.html#cnn-disqus-area

web page

So who would be considered the gun owner here? The parent who bought the gun or the child...obviously it would be the parent since the child couldn't go through a backgound check. .. But if the person bought the gun with the intention for someone other than themselves to use it...isn't that the strawman purchaser thing that's illegal? Or does it not come into play when the user of the gun is intended to be a minor?

I personally can't wrap my head around the fact that there are guns designed to be used by small children...how can we expect children to learn how to use such a weapon safely at that age? We don't allow or encourage parents to let their children drice a vehicle with a child on their lap on the theory that early experience will make a better safer driver....


Epeanymous
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:04:41 AM
I am not an expert in this, but I doubt it would be any different than anything else that a parent owns and shares with kids in the household. I don't think that makes the parent a straw purchaser.

I do think that if the parent left a five-year-old unattended with a firearm, they are a class-A idiot.

ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:04:46 AM
responsible, law-abiding gun owners do not purchase .22s for their five year olds.

lets just get that out of the way

they also don't leave weapons within reach of children

or leave them unsupervised in the presence of a weapon

so..this was not a responsible gun owner

i just don't want you...or the rest of the anti-gun peas...to paint all gun-owners with the same brush

it's a tragic death that could have easily been prevented

gina


ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:07:15 AM
whether or not a five year old should have weapon...i'd say not a .22 ...but my grandaughter is six and has a bb gun

my sons did too (daughter wasn't and still isn't interested)

gun safety begins very early if you are in a family that handles weapons

that bb gun is handled as if it were a shotgun

gina

Maryland
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:08:17 AM
I feel so bad for the 2 yr. old child.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:17:28 AM
Heck, I feel badly for the five year old. What a burden.

I recall people here being upset that pediatricians were asking re gun ownership and storage at check-ups. I hope these incidents serve to clarify the reasons behind that.



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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:17:34 AM
Guns for a 5 year old's birthday. Unbelievable.

Reminds me of the dad that got his 10 year old a rifle for Christmas and the child used it to kill his dad's pregnant wife.

Very sad.


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aprilfay21
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:18:53 AM
Such a sad story.


whether or not a five year old should have weapon...i'd say not a .22 ...but my grandaughter is six and has a bb gun

my sons did too (daughter wasn't and still isn't interested)

gun safety begins very early if you are in a family that handles weapons

that bb gun is handled as if it were a shotgun
This is pretty much how it was in our family. I got my first shotgun at 12, a single shot 410. From the time we were born we were taught not to touch the guns unless dad said it was okay, and to always, ALWAYS treat them as if they were loaded and ready to shoot. Not sure if it was just us kids listening well, or my dad's parenting style, or what but we NEVER touched a gun without permission, even as small children.




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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:19:11 AM

The Crickett website features three different .22-caliber rifle models for kids, with shoulder stock colors ranging from pink to red, white and blue swirls. "My first rifle" is the company's slogan.

So let me get this straight: guns are being marketed to children?




ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:23:06 AM

ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:25:16 AM
this weapon came with an internal lock


Q. What is the purpose of the internal safety lock?
A. It's function is to stop the bolt from closing. Therefore impossible to shoot the rifle, when the lock is engaged. Note: Keys are required to unlock the rifle.

Peppermintpatty
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:26:42 AM
That is the most disgusting and vile thing I have ever heard of. You DO NOT market guns for children. Children should NEVER USE, HANDLE, OR EVEN BE AROUND A GUN!





delilahtwo
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:33:29 AM
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

That's the rhetoric, right?

The OP poses an interesting question however. Technically, the weapon is the child's as it was a gift to him. And if a child (or anyone) owns a gun, they should have appropriate training to use it...but that would fall on the parents. Gun is the kid's....responsibility is the parents...however, that child will have long term psychological problems. Can you imagine living with that?

scrap-up
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:34:13 AM

That is the most disgusting and vile thing I have ever heard of. You DO NOT market guns for children. Children should NEVER USE, HANDLE, OR EVEN BE AROUND A GUN!


I think that NERF would strongly disagree with you.


Julie

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ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:34:22 AM

Children should NEVER USE, HANDLE, OR EVEN BE AROUND A GUN!


really?


cdnstorelady
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:39:30 AM
So if you need to key to relase the lcok, does that mean it wasn't locked or that a 5 year old was able to use the key to disable it by himself?


As much as it's the parent's fault..I do feel sorry for her because I can't imagine what a horrible burden it would be to carry the knowldge that your actions or insctions were directly responsible for your own child's death.

And unlike others whomhave commented in similar cases...I don't think that burden is pinushment enough...a think a jail term is appropriate...

melanell
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:43:56 AM

Heck, I feel badly for the five year old. What a burden.


I agree. My heart breaks for that poor child and for the tween/teen/adult he grows to be. Because I imagine this is something he will deal with repeated times as he ages. Poor little guy.



ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:45:08 AM
hard to tell

and i am just heartbroken for the entire family

gina

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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:51:14 AM
The parents of those children should be prosecuted for being so stupid giving such a young child a weapon .....not only give a child a weapon but to leave the child with it unsupervised!! They were totally irresponsible. A child of 5 isn't going to be aware of how dangerous the rifle is.

Tragically they've paid a huge price for their foolishness.
How is that poor 5 year old going to feel when he is old enough to realise he killed his sister.

For you pro gunners, would you allow a young child to 'play' with sharp knives? let them play with matches? of course you wouldn't because they are dangerous, but you let them 'play' with guns???
The response is always ... responsible parents will train the children blah blah blah but its the irresponsible people that result in innocent people being shot as you hear of so many shooting accidents!!!

The sad thing about this is it could have been prevented by not giving children access to weapons!


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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:52:51 AM

Children should NEVER USE, HANDLE, OR EVEN BE AROUND A GUN!
Your opinion, not mine.

My brothers and I grew up around guns. We were taught early on to respect all firearms, how to shoot them, and to care for them. None of us ever shot anyone.

My grandchildren (the 14, 11, and 6 year old) are being taught responsible gun ownership: how and when to use them. A time-honored family tradition that I don't have a problem with.

Like Gina said:

responsible, law-abiding gun owners do not purchase .22s for their five year olds.

lets just get that out of the way

they also don't leave weapons within reach of children

or leave them unsupervised in the presence of a weapon

so..this was not a responsible gun owner


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Sharna_G
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:57:56 AM

The Crickett website features three different .22-caliber rifle models for kids, with shoulder stock colors ranging from pink to red, white and blue swirls. "My first rifle" is the company's slogan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:01:13 AM
before anyone judges the cricket company

go up and click on the link i provided

they promote safety and education - along with the opportunity to purchase a rifle that is made with a child in mind

it's much more safe for anyone to learn on a weapon that fits them

children are being taught to shoot a rifle...not how to murder someone

gina

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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:04:24 AM
Gina, that's all well and good that they're promoting education. Marketing to children is not okay. Shoot, we pitch a fit when other unsafe/unhealthy things are marketed to children, but a gun is ok?

ETA: if for no other reason, the brains of children are not mature enough for certain adult activities. In particular, the prefrontal cortex (which controls impulsivity and foreseeing consequences among other executive functions) doesn't reach maturity until 25--weakening the effectiveness of the Cricket company's safety and education initiatives.

Link



bgpa
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:08:03 AM

children are being taught to shoot a rifle...not how to murder someone


Obviously, the teaching did work in this case.

A five year old does not have the mental capacity to understand the responsibilities of gun ownership. It appears that this poor child's parents didn't understand it either.


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ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:09:15 AM
i think the difference is that guns can be kept, handled and used safely

there is a market for firearms that are sized for children

i teach my children how to keep, handle and operate a car

i teach my children how to keep, handle and operate a firearm

with both there is a chance for operator error (with possibly deadly results) - but with education and training the odds decrease - for both

we may just disagree on whether or not children should use a weapon - but whose choice should that be?

gina


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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:12:48 AM
There's a huge difference in children of age 12 and older and children aged 5. I think it's completely irresponsible to give your 5 year old a loaded weapon, whether you're in the room or not (and leaving it with them while you go outside puts you up top of the 'stupid motherfucker' list).

That said, my 12 year old nephew just completed the Hunter, Trapper, Safety Ed course in our state. And on his 12th birthday his grandfather gave him a rifle, the exact rifle his cousins got on their 12th birthday, all in sequential serial numbers. None of the children in their family are ever, EVER, left alone with a loaded weapon.

This whole story is completely tragic for the 5 year old and the 2 year old.

~dawn

ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:15:30 AM

children are being taught to shoot a rifle...not how to murder someone


Obviously, the teaching did work in this case.

A five year old does not have the mental capacity to understand the responsibilities of gun ownership. It appears that this poor child's parents didn't understand it either.


Barb

that's a disturbing thing to say
murder - by definition - is done with intent
is that what you are saying?

your attempt at being witty - failed

again, it's the parents ultimate responsibility - their inability to responsibly own a firearm resulted in the death of their child - and caused their other child a horrible burden that he'll carry for the rest of his life



*Erin
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:15:45 AM

there is a market for firearms that are sized for children
Of course there is. But just as with the underage market for cigarettes, it deserves tighter regulation and strong marketing restrictions.



bgpa
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:16:50 AM

i teach my children how to keep, handle and operate a car


You teach a 5 year old how to drive???


Barb

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ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:21:51 AM
yep
i taught them to drive their powerwheels
i taught them to ride a fourwheeler
i taught them to drive their cars


bgpa
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:29:21 AM
I was not attempting to be witty.

Your defense of the company that is marketing guns to children is that they are all promoting safety and education.

In this case, it didn't work, and a child died. I don't see how the comment is disturbing. If the parents had the education that the company is promoting, why did this happen??

You are the one who said murder...I copied and pasted a direct quote from your post. I don't think it was murder, I think it was a horrible situation, which could have been prevented.

Your defense of a company that markets weapons to children that are capable of killing someone...fail.


Barb

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ginacivey
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:33:34 AM
we'll have to agree to disagree

i've said that the parents are irresponsible

you won't get me to say that children should not have the opportunity to learn to handle and operate a firearm

just like i won't sway your opinion

so instead of making things all personal - i'm out

gina

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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:40:04 AM

If the parents had the education that the company is promoting, why did this happen??


Because all the education in the world cannot prevent someone from doing utterly stupid things (ie - leaving a 5 year old alone with a loaded weapon).

~dawn

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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:46:34 AM
Disgusting. And what a waste.

What moron buys their five year old a gun? Seriously. Just another example of why civilians should not own firearms.



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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:47:06 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your defense of a company that markets weapons to children that are capable of killing someone...fail.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The company only sells to adults. If a child could walk into a store and put his pennies on the counter and walk away with a functioning rifle I would say your anger at the company is well-placed. It is not.

This is not a company problem. This is not a child problem. This is a stupid negligent parent problem.


ITA.

It is up to each parent to decide what they feel is appropriate for their child and their family. If they decide that buying a gun their child could use, they are responsible for making sure the gun is kept safely and used safely. These parents failed to do that.






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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:51:35 AM
This happened in my Grandmother's hometown - we were just there for a Family Reunion late last year. Heartbreaking all the way around.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:02:12 PM

For you pro gunners, would you allow a young child to 'play' with sharp knives? let them play with matches? of course you wouldn't because they are dangerous, but you let them 'play' with guns???



Not sure what your definition of a pro gunner is but I'll bite.

We don't let our children "play" with sharp knives. We don't let them "play" with matches.

We also don't let our kids "play" with guns. They are not toys, and are not treated as such.

We have our guns locked in a gun safe, like the majority of responsible gun owners.


Tammy C





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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:03:35 PM
this is so sad...


Gail

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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:06:47 PM
i see no reason for a 5 year old to have a gun, regardless of whether you're a gun family or not. i'm not, i'll admit, but those i know who are sensibly wait until 10 or 12. five??? that's insane.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:15:28 PM

Children should NEVER USE, HANDLE, OR EVEN BE AROUND A GUN!
Perhaps in your world. In many other people's lives guns are a tool that is part of the families life.

In a family/household where guns are a basic part of life it is important to expose children to guns and focus on teaching gun safety and safe gun handling.

I was raised in a home with guns. I had a single shot 22 rifle when I was quite young. It had been my fathers when he was a child and everyone in the family first learned about guns using that little rifle. Mostly I remember learning about cleaning guns and basic safe handling (treat all guns as though they are loaded, never point any gun at anything you are unwilling to shoot, never put your finger ont he trigger until you are ready to shoot etc.)



For you pro gunners, would you allow a young child to 'play' with sharp knives? let them play with matches? of course you wouldn't because they are dangerous, but you let them 'play' with guns???
"pro gunners"? That's a new one.

I would not allow an unsupervised child to 'play' with a sharp knife. However I would teach them how to safely use on - whittling, learning to cook. Using a knife is a basic life skill that parents should teach their children.

I would not allow an unsupervised child to 'play' with matches. However I woul teach them hos to safely use them to lay a campfire or fireplace fire in a safe, supervised manner.

I would not allow any child to 'play' unsupervised in a pool or beach but I would work with them to teach them to be a strong swimmer because swimming is a basic life skill.

I don't *personally* think that 5 is old enough for an unsupervised child to do any of these activities, but I do think that parents should take the time to teach their children how to handle dangerous things when they think their child is mature enough.

Do you think that matches or sharp knives or pools should be outlawed because children could hurt themselves?


This is not a company problem. This is not a child problem. This is a stupid negligent parent problem.
exactly





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luckywife
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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:17:12 PM

For you pro gunners, would you allow a young child to 'play' with sharp knives? let them play with matches? of course you wouldn't because they are dangerous, but you let them 'play' with guns???


Responsible gun owners do not allow young children to "play" with guns. Responsible gun owners keep the gun and ammo locked in separate places, with the keys hidden. The exact details have not been released, but responsible gun owners only allow children to handle a gun when 100% supervised, and when in a safe space, such as a shooting range, NOT their unsupervised living room.

I have incredible sympathy for the 5 year old, as he will have to live with this for the rest of his life, as well as his mother, and his poor sister.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:23:40 PM

Just as I was going to post the OP deleted her thread & title (I know this because I got an short lived error message & she said "I'm out" - what a fool.....
The title might be gone but the OP is still there for me.


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melanell
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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:28:49 PM

If the parents had the education that the company is promoting, why did this happen??


Because you can promote something until you are blue in the face and not everyone will accept what you are saying and follow up on it.

Because you can educate until you are blue in the face and not everyone will choose to learn by listening to your words alone. Many people learn their lessons the hardest ways imaginable. This is yet another case of that.



Lumo
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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:36:51 PM

children are being taught to shoot a rifle...not how to murder someone


That's just an unfortunate side effect.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:40:07 PM

Responsible gun owners do not allow young children to "play" with guns. Responsible gun owners keep the gun and ammo locked in separate places, with the keys hidden. The exact details have not been released, but responsible gun owners only allow children to handle a gun when 100% supervised, and when in a safe space, such as a shooting range, NOT their unsupervised living room.


I suspect the parents of the 5 year old thought they were responsible gun owners. I suspect the parents of the 4 year old who killed the women standing next to him with a gun thought they were responsible gun owners. I suspect the parents of the 4 year old who killed his 6 old playmate thought they were responsible gun owners. In fact I'm pretty sure that most if not all of the parents where their kids got a hold of loaded gun and killed someone thought they were responsible gun owners as well.

They think something like this will never happen in our house because we are responsible gun owners. And then it does. That is the tragedy of guns in the homes with children.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 12:43:53 PM

This is a tragic situation on many levels. I agree with many of you, that a five year old child is not responsilbe enought to own a gun. But the parents didn't take the necessary safety precautions.

Why was the amuniton available to the five year old? If he'd had access to the gun and the safety was disabled BUT it didn't have amunition there would have been no accident. If the amunition had been locked up, away from the gun this entire situation could have been avoided.

It's a terrible situation. Unfortunately, one that this family will have to live with for the rest of their lives.


~Laurie~
aka momtoemily

PeaNut 63,864
January 2003
Posts: 11,128
Layouts: 1
Loc: South Dakota

Posted: 5/1/2013 12:49:34 PM

For you pro gunners, would you allow a young child to 'play' with sharp knives? let them play with matches? of course you wouldn't because they are dangerous, but you let them 'play' with guns???


Would I let my dd's play with knives? No
Matches? Nope.
Guns? Nope.

Would I let me dd's own a gun? Yup...because I know my dh is a responsible gun owner. I know that my dd's would take a gun safety course. I know that we would not allow dd's to play with a gun when we weren't around. I also know that dd's would not even be able to access a gun without us. That is what RESPONSIBLE gun owners do.

I know this seems shocking but a child can own a gun and not "play" with it...if they have responsible parents.




Just as I was going to post the OP deleted her thread & title (I know this because I got an short lived error message & she said "I'm out" - what a fool.....

As for the OP - I guess it got too hot in the kitchen for her


Psst...Gina wasn't the OP. The OP is cdnstorelady. Furthermore, the thread is still here (obviously since we are posting on it ) and the OP is also still there.


Laurie


Mary Kay Lady
I'm thinking . . .

PeaNut 367,913
March 2008
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Loc: The state of Confusion!

Posted: 5/1/2013 12:54:13 PM

Since the OP has deleted the thread title I thought I'd past in the initial post just because it might get deleted, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/index.html#cnn-disqus-area

web page

So who would be considered the gun owner here? The parent who bought the gun or the child...obviously it would be the parent since the child couldn't go through a backgound check. .. But if the person bought the gun with the intention for someone other than themselves to use it...isn't that the strawman purchaser thing that's illegal? Or does it not come into play when the user of the gun is intended to be a minor?

I personally can't wrap my head around the fact that there are guns designed to be used by small children...how can we expect children to learn how to use such a weapon safely at that age? We don't allow or encourage parents to let their children drice a vehicle with a child on their lap on the theory that early experience will make a better safer driver....


~Laurie~
aka momtoemily

PeaNut 63,864
January 2003
Posts: 11,128
Layouts: 1
Loc: South Dakota

Posted: 5/1/2013 12:58:09 PM
I believe from the very beginning the OP didn't have a thread title. I assume it is because she forgot to type one and not because she had some nefarious intent of deleting it.


Laurie


ginacivey
prey-sniffing bully

PeaNut 32,477
March 2002
Posts: 25,680
Layouts: 32
Loc: Out in the boondocks

Posted: 5/1/2013 1:21:30 PM
hold the boat

i am not the OP

and i didn't delete anything

in fact, in the 10+ years i've been here i've never deleted a post

everything i said here ... is still here

and the 'kitchen' didn't get too hot - i merely said that my opinion wouldn't change..nor would i be changing anyone's opinion

get YOUR facts together before you open your pie hole

gina
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