s/o Eagle Scout rank-is the BSa controversy going to impact...

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Posted 5/1/2013 by shescrafty2 in NSBR Board
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shescrafty2
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Posted: 5/1/2013 8:03:41 PM
...how the accomplishment of attaining the Eagle Scout rank is perceived?

I know it takes lot of work, time, commitment, etc., to become an Eagle Scout. But I do wonder if it will not be seen as such a high accomplishment in the future b/c of the BSA policy on not accepting gays and atheists. It is now clearly an organization that is controversial and exclusionary, I wonder if it will still be considered such an honor as it is now?


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Posted: 5/1/2013 8:50:14 PM
It might for some but really why would the perception be different of someone who has worked so hard to attain the rank of Eagle Scout? Contributions are done with all the news coverage.


I think it will continue to be a respected accompplishment for young men. There are plenty of College Frats that exclude groups very publically and are very respected so what is the difference?

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Posted: 5/1/2013 8:54:31 PM
No.

The controversy does not diminish the individual's accomplishments. It's an awesome feat.



ajsweetpea
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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:00:29 PM

The controversy does not diminish the individual's accomplishments. It's an awesome feat.


Agreed. And just because someone is an Eagle Scout, it does not mean they agree with some of the exclusionary policies the scouts have in place. Many I know are hoping they'll be overturned.


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tamhugh
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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:07:54 PM

Agreed. And just because someone is an Eagle Scout, it does not mean they agree with some of the exclusionary policies the scouts have in place. Many I know are hoping they'll be overturned.



My 19 year old Eagle Scout has already written letters to his former council and to National, stating his opinion that it is time to accept gay Scouts. I know that at least one of his friends from his troop has done the same. I think that we, as a society, don't give our young people enough credit. So many of them are politically and socially aware and motivated.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:16:03 PM
Are you insinuating that allowing gays to participate in the Eagle Scout Rank will somehow lessen the accomplishment? Cheapen it?

I really hope that's not what you're getting at.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:29:50 PM

Are you insinuating that allowing gays to participate in the Eagle Scout Rank will somehow lessen the accomplishment? Cheapen it?



No, she's insinuating that the reputation of the BSA organization itself is going to be tarnished by their anti-gay stance and, by association, so will the accomplishment of the rank of Eagle Scout be diminished.

Which is what I have been wondering for a couple of years myself as my boys have gotten older.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:31:52 PM
I think in the future, it will not be seen as such a great thing.

I really feel that not accepting gay LEADERS will be a detriment to the organization. In order for them to remain relevant as well as the religions to remain relevant, they will have to accept gay leadership. I don't see corporate sponsors coming back by this minor change.

I think we will eventually get to the point where we'll shake our heads in embarrassment. Like when interracial marriage was not allowed and there was segregation. Or when it took years for equal rights for women to be acknowledged.

Their policy change also does not make sense. When a young man obtains his eagle he is supposed to promise to continue on in the organization and mentor others. If he is gay, that is not possible. So what does he say in the ceremony when they ask him to help? Says I can't, I'm gay? Does he get his Eagle?

tamhugh
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Posted: 5/1/2013 9:48:10 PM

Their policy change also does not make sense. When a young man obtains his eagle he is supposed to promise to continue on in the organization and mentor others. If he is gay, that is not possible. So what does he say in the ceremony when they ask him to help? Says I can't, I'm gay? Does he get his Eagle?


If I remember correctly from DS's Court of Honor, they are asked to continue to help others up the trail, as others helped them. It doesn't say they have to be a troop leader anywhere in the service. Many of these boys who have made Eagle continue on as Scouts in the troop until they are 18, so they can mentor and help in that way. You can be a merit badge counselor without being a troop leader. DS had help from the property manager at the park where he did his Eagle project. That is a way to mentor and help without being a troop leader. There were dads in the troop who had been Eagles and were not troop leaders who called, texted, and encouraged DS along his trail.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:00:42 PM
I think it will. They are on the wrong side of history here. To say it's ok for the scouts to be gay now but not Leaders is ridiculous. Are they afraid it's going to rub off? Silly.



IScrapCrap
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:05:03 PM

You can be a merit badge counselor without being a troop leader.


I don't understand the BSA's reasons for no gay leaders, but I still see merit badge counselor as a leadership position. My dad did that for numerous years. Many scouts came to our house on their own. There wasn't a second leader or another boy with them.

If the BSA is scared about abuse (which is stupid) that would be an easy time to do it. My mom was always there, but there was not supervision. Sometimes meetings would go longer, especially if they were close to getting their eagles.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:17:02 PM
Your dad would have been violating the 2 deep leadership law as it stands. No one is supposed to be alone with the boys- not even merit badge counselors. I recently watched the child protection video, and that was a BIG no-no.


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wholarmor
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:18:59 PM

The controversy does not diminish the individual's accomplishments. It's an awesome feat.


Agreed. And just because someone is an Eagle Scout, it does not mean they agree with some of the exclusionary policies the scouts have in place. Many I know are hoping they'll be overturned.

I agree with that, too.


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IScrapCrap
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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:21:05 PM

Your dad would have been violating the 2 deep leadership law as it stands. No one is supposed to be alone with the boys- not even merit badge counselors. I recently watched the child protection video, and that was a BIG no-no.


That was a few years back. I honestly don't know when he stopped being a counselor and the new rules started.

I still think it's weird they would allow a merit badge counselor to be gay and not a troop leader. If the 2-deep rule always applies, it shouldn't matter the orientation of the leader.

Ignoring whether someone is gay or not, I think it is an excellent rule. It protects the kids from abuse and leaders from allegations of abuse. We knew of one family who was "sue happy" and that rule was never ever ever broken. Their child was a hellion.

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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:45:12 PM
I will be honest, I think it does diminish it, and I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout.



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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:48:58 PM
I think it will be.

See to someone like me? It is not an "honor". I'm glad your kid achieved his goal and good for him, is pretty much all I think about it.

But if, to you (or her or him or them) it is an honor, then you will continue to think so. KWIM?


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Posted: 5/1/2013 10:49:47 PM

I will be honest, I think it does diminish it, and I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout.


Same here.


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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:01:09 PM

Posted: 5/1/2013 10:45:12 PM
I will be honest, I think it does diminish it, and I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout.



Well not a wife .. But a mom of an openly gay Eagle Scout .. But the funny thing is .. JEREMY is very proud of his Eagle rank .. and feels that he will lead the change by example .. by showing by the way he lives his life. That he is not a bad person because he is gay AND that he is someone ALL the scouts can look up to ..
Cheri


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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:49:05 PM
"Posted: 5/1/2013 10:45:12 PM
I will be honest, I think it does diminish it, and I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout.


Well not a wife .. But a mom of an openly gay Eagle Scout .. But the funny thing is .. JEREMY is very proud of his Eagle rank .. and feels that he will lead the change by example .. by showing by the way he lives his life. That he is not a bad person because he is gay AND that he is someone ALL the scouts can look up to ..
Cheri "


That's wonderful Cheri
Did they know he was gay when he got his eagle rank?


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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:55:14 PM

I still think it's weird they would allow a merit badge counselor to be gay and not a troop leader. If the 2-deep rule always applies, it shouldn't matter the orientation of the leader.

Ignoring whether someone is gay or not, I think it is an excellent rule. It protects the kids from abuse and leaders from allegations of abuse. We knew of one family who was "sue happy" and that rule was never ever ever broken. Their child was a hellion.

Oh, I'm totally with you there. I think it's funny that they allow women to be den leaders, but not gay women- who would have even a less risk of molesting a boy. I don't understand the thinking, either.

I think it's an excellent rule, too. Usually parents stay and help at our den meetings in Cub Scouts. I had a lady drop off a kid at the last meeting without even coming in to see if there was anyone there(I guess she saw my van and figured I was there). But I didn't have any adults there at the time she dropped him off. I had to get on her case because I could get in trouble for not having at least another parent there. I happen to know the lady personally, and I guess she trusts me, but trust isn't enough. Plus, she's the nanny, so she gets paid while I'm voluntarily babysitting him(and he's ADHD, so it's not an easy task).


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wholarmor
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Posted: 5/1/2013 11:59:55 PM

Well not a wife .. But a mom of an openly gay Eagle Scout .. But the funny thing is .. JEREMY is very proud of his Eagle rank .. and feels that he will lead the change by example .. by showing by the way he lives his life. That he is not a bad person because he is gay AND that he is someone ALL the scouts can look up to ..

Good for him! I hope that people will foster that attitude more and bring change from within.


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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:01:40 AM
no, it's still hard work. a persons beliefs, do not affect how hard they work or the requirement it take to achieve a goal. If someone where to believe that Eagle wouldn't be an accomplishment, I would clearly know they didn't know what it took into earning that rank.

There are many organizations in our country with varying beliefs. BSA is a private organization. If someone doesn't like what they believe they can choose to belong somewhere else. Tolerance goes both ways. This isn't a violent organization that promotes violence against others or one that tries to force others into believing the same thing.


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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:14:50 AM

I will be honest, I think it does diminish it, and I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout.


I feel the same way.


This isn't a violent organization that promotes violence against others or one that tries to force others into believing the same thing.


No, it just tells some young men that the way they were born is bad or inferior.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:22:26 AM

no, it's still hard work. a persons beliefs, do not affect how hard they work or the requirement it take to achieve a goal. If someone where to believe that Eagle wouldn't be an accomplishment, I would clearly know they didn't know what it took into earning that rank.

There are many organizations in our country with varying beliefs. BSA is a private organization. If someone doesn't like what they believe they can choose to belong somewhere else. Tolerance goes both ways. This isn't a violent organization that promotes violence against others or one that tries to force others into believing the same thing.



No but it does discriminate. My dh who is an Eagle Scout will not have anything to do with the BSA until they change their stance on gays overall. He is not the only one that feels this way. It is their right, but we also have the right to think it is wrong and speak out against it. He does feel is diminishes the good they do and what it means.



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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:37:40 AM

My dh who is an Eagle Scout will not have anything to do with the BSA until they change their stance on gays overall.


I read this a lot. Is it a case of knowing better now, so doing better now? Did he use it on his college apps and early resumes? Because it was a discriminatory policy when your DH was a boy and it must not have bothered him then.

I'm hoping all former Eagles and parents are actively working to have this changed. My son is in Scouts btw and his troop is promoting policy change.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:40:17 AM

I read this a lot. Is it a case of knowing better now, so doing better now? Did he use it on his college apps and early resumes? Because it was a discriminatory policy when your DH was a boy and it must not have bothered him then.

I'm hoping all former Eagles and parents are actively working to have this changed. My son is in Scouts btw and his troop is promoting policy change.


Because it wasn't talked about 20-30 years ago when he was a scout. It was just a different time.



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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:47:37 AM
Tolerance goes both ways? I think when you 'tolerate' discrimination, you're called a bigot.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




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Posted: 5/2/2013 11:09:45 AM

That's wonderful Cheri
Did they know he was gay when he got his eagle rank?


Some did and some didn't .. so I am not sure how that played into the board of review .. BUT he was awarded the rank ..

along this same thread .. our local council (Sam Houston Area) just voted to KEEP the ban .. I am very sad and disappointed and cannot in good conscience support them any longer .. I am going to have some difficult conversations soon with our neighbors because we have ALWAYS supported her boys in the past .. I want to tell the BOYS why (they are all 12 and older) but my DH thinks I should tell the parents and let them explain .. I am not going to back down on this one ..

Cheri


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Posted: 5/2/2013 1:17:25 PM
Cheri, good for you! and you're right, I think the boys are old enough to understand it's the local troop you're not supporting, not them personally and why you're not doing it.

Mrs Tyler, your statement:
I think part of tolerance is allowing others to have their views without demanding everyone change to fit my definition of right and wrong.

I love, and completely agree with. I work with someone who as VERY different views on many things I hold sacred. I wish I could express this to him without it becoming ugly.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 1:26:33 PM
For me personally, with the BSA's current policies on both homosexuals and atheists, everything connected to that organization is tainted. I agree that they are a private organization and can discriminate if they choose, but I don't need to support the BSA, nor will I laud the individuals that choose to participate in it.



Kristen, lucky mom and proud retired Army wife!




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Posted: 5/2/2013 1:33:02 PM
everything connected to that organization is tainted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Kinda like the army until they decided to change policy?

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Posted: 5/2/2013 1:48:18 PM

everything connected to that organization is tainted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Kinda like the army until they decided to change policy?


Yes, actually. My views on homosexuality have evolved over the past six or so years, beginning after we had already been in the military for over 15 years, and were planning on retiring. Neither my husband nor I were happy with DADT, but at that point it wasn't worth giving up a life-time of retirement security for. My husband actually participated in focus groups when the military was researching the repeal of DADT, and helped fight for that repeal, so in this case it was good he was working on the "inside", and we were both thrilled when DADT was repealed.

I believe the BSA is only looking seriously at policy change now because of the continued pull-out of big-name sponsors and negative press. I believe that and a dwindling amount of support from the public, especially the younger generations, are the only things that will really make that organization change its stance.


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Posted: 5/2/2013 2:26:31 PM
Thanks for explanation, Stittysgirl.. Crazy that a much smaller institution like BSA is moving slower.

Cheri, so sorry to read about Houston! Is Austin in that same council/ area?

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Posted: 5/2/2013 2:40:42 PM
Despite some similarities and connections, the BSA and the US military are still two totally different animals, and their motivations for change are going to be different.

FWIW, the BSA's offensive policy against atheists is what would directly affect my family right now, if we were contemplating Boy Scouts for our sons. I've seen the lines between church and state blurred several times while in the military, but they still have no such policy against atheists.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 2:44:25 PM

I want to tell the BOYS why (they are all 12 and older) but my DH thinks I should tell the parents and let them explain .. I am not going to back down on this one ..


I'm with your husband on this one. Address the issue with the parents and allow them to decide if, when and how to deliver your message to their children.

I know I'm "old school". I just feel it's inappropriate to have an obviously important discussion with someone's else's children without first getting their clearance to do so.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 2:50:45 PM

For me personally, with the BSA's current policies on both homosexuals and atheists, everything connected to that organization is tainted. I agree that they are a private organization and can discriminate if they choose, but I don't need to support the BSA, nor will I laud the individuals that choose to participate in it.


This is how I feel as well.


~Heidi~



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Posted: 5/2/2013 2:59:08 PM
I understand, I think. But as a non military person I see their change as bowing to political will, there were opportunities for change before but they choose not to do it. Similar to BSA bending to corporate pressure. Fwiw I don't care what causes the pressure I want it to change.

Our troop has so many different religions Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, I suppose they are more but those are family friends. One Mom is an atheist, but her son is exploring and undecided. I forget it could be a problem. Sorry. Do you encounter oversights like mine often?

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Posted: 5/2/2013 3:11:40 PM

Our troop has so many different religions Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, I suppose they are more but those are family friends. One Mom is an atheist, but her son is exploring and undecided. I forget it could be a problem. Sorry. Do you encounter oversights like mine often?


I think so many people still don't know the exact BSA policies concerning homosexuals and atheists, although the homosexual policy gets more focus at this time. I wouldn't ever want my children to have to lie about believing in a deity (or their sexual orientation) just to stay and progress in an organization, although they are free to choose what they believe (and my oldest son did tell me today he believes in Zeus ). Neither son has shown any interest in boy scouting anyway, so their possible involvement hasn't been an issue for us. My extended family are all LDS, and all very active in the BSA, so I do have to occasionally explain to them why I won't support the BSA.


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Posted: 5/2/2013 3:38:31 PM
I read recently LDS supported lifting the ban. We're a predominantly Catholic state, doubt we'll see a letter from them. And agree with you about not having children lie - or be recruited / bullied / ostracized- for their beliefs.

I've enjoyed talking to you about this, since you wrote about reason to stay in army I feel like you understand conflicted feelings.

ETA to remove quote, I didn't want to sound like back-handed bitchy.

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Posted: 5/2/2013 4:53:54 PM

Are you insinuating that allowing gays to participate in the Eagle Scout Rank will somehow lessen the accomplishment? Cheapen it?

I really hope that's not what you're getting at.


Not at all-my point/question is that I feel like the rank of Eagle Scout will be lessened b/c of the bigotd policies of the BSA.


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Posted: 5/2/2013 5:07:42 PM

For me personally, with the BSA's current policies on both homosexuals and atheists, everything connected to that organization is tainted. I agree that they are a private organization and can discriminate if they choose, but I don't need to support the BSA, nor will I laud the individuals that choose to participate in it.


ITA.



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Posted: 5/2/2013 8:20:46 PM

It is now clearly an organization that is controversial and exclusionary, I wonder if it will still be considered such an honor as it is now?


I'll go one step further, I think it will become a detriment in some circles. My son is 15 and I don't know of any friends of his that are still part of the BSA. When they started a troop in our elementary school 10 years ago they had five boys in the troop. Even back then in my ultra-religious/heavily republican neighborhood people were shunning the Boy Scouts. I don't know if it's just my area, but boy Scouts are not seen as something to respect among my son's peer group.

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Posted: 5/3/2013 9:49:50 AM

I'll go one step further, I think it will become a detriment in some circles.


I might agree with you. These aren't boys who are making the decision to persue the Eagle. They're young men who are old enough to be informed about the issues their organization is facing. If they choose to persue Eagle, they are choosing to align themselves with BSA's POV.

It might not look so good on that resume after all.



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Posted: 5/3/2013 10:50:58 AM

It might not look so good on that resume after all.


Do people really put stuff from high school on their résumé? Unless it was someone coming straight from college (first job and trying to fill up the page) I can't imagine putting that on there. A resume of a grown man with "Eagle Scout" would go straight in the trash.

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Posted: 5/3/2013 11:56:04 AM

No, she's insinuating that the reputation of the BSA organization itself is going to be tarnished by their anti-gay stance and, by association, so will the accomplishment of the rank of Eagle Scout be diminished.


Is the reputation of the Catholic church, LDS church, and many other major religions' reputation "tarnished" due to THEIR stance on homosexuality.

AND,

by the way, the National BSA just voted to not exclude homosexual youth members.


For me personally, with the BSA's current policies on both homosexuals and atheists, everything connected to that organization is tainted. I agree that they are a private organization and can discriminate if they choose, but I don't need to support the BSA, nor will I laud the individuals that choose to participate in it.


This is how I feel as well.


Part of the Oath that each Scout takes (youth and adult) is their "duty to God", therefore an atheist cannot take that oath.

Are you so "intolerant" of the many religions that believe that homosexuality is a sin?. With all the LDS women who are crafters and are on this board, where is their voice?

tikibay
PeaFixture

PeaNut 51,706
October 2002
Posts: 3,996
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Loc: South Jersey Girl

Posted: 5/3/2013 12:04:19 PM
First let me put this out there:


In February, the Boy Scouts of America embarked on the most comprehensive listening exercise in its history to consider the impact of potential changes to its membership standards policy on the organization and gather perspectives from inside and outside of the Scouting family. This review created an outpouring of feedback from the Scouting family and the American public, from both those who agree with the current policy and those who support a change.

Scouting's review confirmed that this remains among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today. Even with the wide range of input, it is extremely difficult to accurately quantify the potential impact of maintaining or changing the current policy. While perspectives and opinions vary significantly, parents, adults in the Scouting community, and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting.

In May, the National Executive Committee is asking its approximately 1,400 voting members to consider a proposed resolution that would remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone and would maintain the current membership policy for all adult leaders of the Boy Scouts of America. The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.




From: Click Me


Second the Eagle rank will never be look down upon. So much hard work and effort goes into getting it. Probably one of the hardest thing a child can accomplish. The scouts are in it to have fun. There is no easy pass with it. And children should not be frowned upon being in scouts simply because at this point in time gays are not allowed.


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batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
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Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 5/3/2013 12:05:38 PM
Yes, the Catholic and other churches who discriminate are tainted for being intolerant so far as those who are inclusive. There are peas on this board who admit they left b/c of those policies.

No, saying it's ok if you may be gay but we will not let you fully be a scout, that is if we know you're gay you cannot be or will be stripped of Eagle status and cannot serve as a leader is not enough. Discrimination is discrimination. They are private and can do what they want. This is purely dollars and corporate sponsors for them. They are trying to have their cake and eat it, too. They won't be eating any of MY cake, that's for sure.

Exactly. You just pointed out that they are discriminatory against and intolerant of atheists. What's your point? She is saying that it is one of the numerous reasons she cannot support them. What's wrong with that?


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




shescrafty2
PeaFixture

PeaNut 178,427
November 2004
Posts: 3,491
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Posted: 5/3/2013 12:08:49 PM

Is the reputation of the Catholic church, LDS church, and many other major religions' reputation "tarnished" due to THEIR stance on homosexuality.




I think that those organizations may also be seeing their reputation tarnished by their stand on homosexuality, so I think it is comparable. There was a lot of negativity towards the LDS church because of how much they donated and how involved they were with Prop 8.


********************************************************
your true character is shown not by how you treat people you agree with, but how you treat those you don't


*maureen*
Bad Wolf

PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 6,033
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Loc: Wheaton

Posted: 5/3/2013 1:03:11 PM

Is the reputation of the Catholic church, LDS church, and many other major religions' reputation "tarnished" due to THEIR stance on homosexuality.


Yes, and it's one of the reasons I have decided to leave the catholic church.


Are you so "intolerant" of the many religions that believe that homosexuality is a sin?.


Yes. I do not donate time or money to an organization that is not in align with my personal beliefs.

stittsygirl
I AM SHER LOCKED

PeaNut 9,640
January 2001
Posts: 9,044
Layouts: 131
Loc: Deep in the heart of...

Posted: 5/3/2013 1:11:32 PM

Are you so "intolerant" of the many religions that believe that homosexuality is a sin?. With all the LDS women who are crafters and are on this board, where is their voice?


I was born in Utah and raised LDS in the most Mormon county in the world. I was a believer and active member until my mid-thirties, to include serving a full-time mission for the church. It was the LDS church's stance on homosexuality that started me on the way out of that organization about seven years ago, although it was only a part of what ultimately destroyed my faith. It was the LDS church's political participation in Prop 8 that made me decide to formally and publicly resign from the church, for which I faced quite a bit of harsh censure from family and LDS friends. Prop 8 was the last straw for both my husband and MIL as well (both life-long, active members to that point), and is what started them on the way out of the LDS church.

While what is taught from the pulpit of any church no longer directly affects me, any religion that works to deny civil rights to homosexuals, as well as promote fear of homosexuals and their "lifestyle", is on my tarnished list. The LDS church got a pretty good black eye from their Prop 8 involvement as well.



Kristen, lucky mom and proud retired Army wife!



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