Question about Rape

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Posted 8/24/2013 by BergdorfBlonde in NSBR Board
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BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:43:36 AM
This topic came up a few times this weekend because one of our nieces met up with a guy she befriended on the internet. She's 21. Everyone warned her about the dangers of meeting up with someone you don't know. That being said, there are dangers with anyone you first date...........

My question is this: Is rape ever justified? What if someone has a flirtatious relationship with a new friend, and that friend immediately crosses the line and not only makes it sexual, but rapes the person? Isn't rape always WRONG, and something obviously against your will??? I've heard a few people this weekend indicate that if you give off the vibe that it could be a sexual relationship, then it's understandable that it could turn into rape. This INFURIATES me since I was raped once. I didn't ask for it. I didn't expect it. So, what do the Peas say??









Tlcpea
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:48:06 AM
No always means no. I don't care if clothes are off and entry is about to be made. If a persons says no or stop then sorry, no sex for you.


Tara

Belia
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:49:03 AM

Is rape ever justified?


No. Not ever.

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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:49:30 AM
ALWAYS!!
The very idea that it is not is WRONG!!



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BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:49:50 AM
Thank you, Tara. I'm really surprised by some people (especially women) who think that it's somehow expected or they have the sentiment, "you asked for it when.............." It's disturbing to me.









BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:51:37 AM
Thanks, Peas. I just can't figure out how anyone could ever justify it.









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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:53:37 AM

Is rape ever justified?
No. Never. Not ever. For any reason. At all. Ever.






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khazlett
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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:58:32 AM

I've heard a few people this weekend indicate that if you give off the vibe that it could be a sexual relationship, then it's understandable that it could turn into rape.


No, no it's not understandable! I don't care what "vibe" anyone give off. That is just a self-righteous woman looking down on the actions of another woman or a man making excuses for poor impulse control.


Rape is NEVER okay in any circumstance.

scrapnchick
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:01:49 AM
I don't think rape is ever justified, it will always be horribly wrong!

That being said, there have been people I know who have certain behaviors and I haven't been surprised when they ended up hurt because they continually put themselves in those situations.

If you go out half naked and throw yourself at men over and over, I'm not surprised when eventually you find the wrong guy who is going to force himself on you. I'm not saying its ok, I'm not saying he is justified, I'm just less surprised that it happened to that type of girl than I am when it happens to the modestly dressed girl who is walking to work, or her next college class.

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molove
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:07:13 AM
No is a complete sentence.
No means no.

I won't drone on. Here is a great flow chart about consent.
It's basic, but there is so much confusion and murkiness about this, I think it needs to be.

Consent


NativeNewYorker
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:31:10 AM
No means no.


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IleneScraps
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:35:04 AM
Rape is never justified for any reason. That's the definition of rape - it's done against another's will, without their consent, and is a violent act against their person and body.



llnutswife
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:36:36 AM
How you are dressed or not dressed does not mean you are asking to be raped. To say you aren't surprised that this "type" of girl gets raped is outrageous. Take responsibility for raising your sons properly to respect a woman's choice If my sons were to force a woman I would be in jail cause I would beat them for that and when they were growing up I made darn sure they knew that I meant it. We should be teaching our sons to respect women and graciously accept no as a final answer


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PierKiss
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:37:06 AM
NO IT IS NEVER EVER JUSTIFIED! A woman could go on a date with a man and be stark naked and make sexual suggestions all night long and it still wouldn't be okay for her to be raped!!!

Peabay
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:38:28 AM
Ew. I can't believe anyone thinks that forcibly having sex with someone is ever justified.

What a repulsive idea.



Janeliz
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:39:56 AM
As a mom of two daughters, it scares the hell out of me that anyone could even begin to imagine a justification for rape.

BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:42:51 AM

How you are dressed or not dressed does not mean you are asking to be raped. To say you aren't surprised that this "type" of girl gets raped is outrageous.
Thank you! ITA with this! And also this:

NO IT IS NEVER EVER JUSTIFIED! A woman could go on a date with a man and be stark naked and make sexual suggestions all night long and it still wouldn't be okay for her to be raped!!!
Yet in my conversations these past few days, people very close to me said otherwise. I'm floored. I had to check in here, because I thought I might be extra sensitive having been raped in the past.









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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:45:11 AM

No is a complete sentence. As a mother to two sons I've been working to teach them to respect women.



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pennyring
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:46:30 AM
The fact that we're labeling it "rape" means it's not ok. Ever. That's a given.




BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 11:49:05 AM

The fact that we're labeling it "rape" means it's not ok. Ever. That's a given.

Of course I agree with this, which is why I'm shocked to hear intelligent, reasonable women add in, "but you were too friendly/too trusting/too sexy-looking, etc........................" as though you ASKED for it to happen.









moveablefeast
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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:04:52 PM

if you give off the vibe that it could be a sexual relationship, then it's understandable that it could turn into rape.


This would infuriate me, too.

I think rape is never justifiable. For one person to force sexual activity after the other person has said no or stop is rape.

I have had friends say that they thought that it wasn't rape if you were making out, or that it was understandable if a young man "lost control" during heavy petting, because making out is arousing, and arousal is hard to control. I disagree - I don't care what you were doing, when you say stop it means stop.

marycain
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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:07:03 PM
There are never, ever any justifications for rape. Ever. Rape by definition is non-consensual. No one has the right to impose any type of sexual activity on you unless you are a willing partner and fully capable of giving consent.

We have four sons. From the time they were old enough to talk about sex, we've emphasized that they are to respect boundaries with a partner. No means just that, no. No excuses; no justifications; no qualifiers.

Taking advantage of someone who is too young to legally consent, or drunk, or otherwise incapacitated = all just as wrong as physically forcing sex on someone. Playing the "if you really love me, you'd have sex with me" game is mental coercion, equally wrong in a moral sense even if there isn't the same degree of legal culpability.

And because boys are vulnerable, too, we've also talked about not allowing themselves to be pressured, guilted, or emotionally blackmailed into having sex before they are ready, and also what to do if an adult like a teacher or coach is behaving inappropriately. I think sometimes we as parents (and society in general) are guilty of assuming that rape is primarily a danger for women, and not doing enough to educate and protect our sons.

CountryHam
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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:13:05 PM
Rape is always wrong.

Waking up the next day and regretting what you have done is no excuse to claim "date rape" either. I have seen too many reputations ruined by that.



UkSue
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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:28:45 PM

I do think it is ALWAYS wrong. That being said, I never wanted to give any guy any reason to justify forcing me to have sex. I do think we need to be careful about the situations we put ourselves in but in no way does that give anyone permission to rape another person. I know I don't want to send any mixed messages so I am very careful about where I go, who I'm with, and how I present myself to be 100% clear of my personal intentions.

I do understand how sometimes guys get mixed messages and think a girl has the same desire he has. But if she says "No" he needs to run away as fast as possible. Regardless of the messages she may have sent up until that moment, once she says no, that's it. No means no. This is what I plan on telling my own boys.


Mrs Tyler said exactly what I believe.


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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:38:04 PM
It's even more than no means no in my mind. Consent has to be given. Has to be given.

That is the whole that I will teach my son.


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cmpeter
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Posted: 8/24/2013 12:43:14 PM

Is rape ever justified?


Good gravy, no. It's never justified. It doesn't matter how you are dressed or how flirtatious you are being, at the moment you say "no", there is no sex or it's rape. It's also insulting to men to imply that if a woman is acting flirtatious they are powerless to stop if she says "no".


Cindi

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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:01:04 PM
mrs tyler is an idiot. the idea of mixed messages is victim blaming. even if two people are naked in a bed together, if one says no, that's the end of it.

BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:21:55 PM
Okay, I'll put more info about my specific case out there so it could be judged easier. I was in a different State with my DD (she had a convention to go to but she stayed with friends, so I got a hotel room alone and thought I'd use the time to just ponder over huge lifechanges that were about to happen to me). I got a call from an internet friend. By all accounts he seemed to be upstanding. He was going to show me around. He made it seem all too easy, saying he'd pick me up in my hotel room. Having been out of the "game" for so long, I stupidly agreed. He came in and that was that. This was NOT agreed upon, nor expected. It was the most terrifying, horrific couple of hours I had ever experienced. I didn't know if I would live or die (it was that bad!)...

This is still being discussed with my peeps this weekend and I'm getting progressively more and more upset, so I'll leave it at that. No matter what I was wearing (I had on a pretty dress--nothing sexy) or no matter if he *thought* I was in it for $ex, he was wrong, and he knew it when I immediately said "no". But some people honestly think that I "asked" for it because maybe I flirted with him in the past, or maybe my profile pic was too sexy, or maybe he thought I was promiscuous. This is what's so hurtful to me. I was beaten and physically harmed. I was examined TWO days later by my doctor who took pictures and made a profile, ready for me to file charges (I didn't b/c I didn't want my kids to know about it). It was serious, and yet some people still look at it like I "asked" for it. That is so hurtful. No one ASKS to be raped. EVER.









marycain
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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:47:02 PM
First, I'm sorry that happened to you. It's a traumatic, terrifying experience, and you're obviously a very strong person to be able to even talk about it with other people.

Second, you weren't stupid. Most people think of a hotel room as a reasonably safe place, since it's a public location with other people around, and most hotel rooms aren't sound-proofed. Being blindsided by someone you had no reason to distrust isn't being stupid; it's just being unlucky.

Third, I've worked in the criminal justice system for over 20 years, and I can assure you that rape has little to do with sex; and what the victim was wearing or doing has very little impact on the rapist's behavior. It's about power and control, not sex. I've seen victims ranging from age 6 months to age 90. Would you blame them for being raped? You're just as much a victim of circumstance as they were, so don't blame yourself or let other people put doubts or negative thoughts in your mind.

Finally, I can also tell you from experience that many women blame the victim as a means of distancing themselves emotionally from her. If they can tell themselves that another woman was raped because she was flirting, or dressed wrong, or hung around with the wrong crowd, or somehow "asked for it", then rape becomes something that only happens to someone who puts herself in a situation to be raped. If they aren't "that type of woman", then rape is not something they have to fear. Blaming the victim is simply a comforting fallacy that keeps them from having to acknowledge that rape is a crime of violence that could just as easily happen to them as it did to you. It's a defense mechanism, a way of controlling their own fear and anxiety.

BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:50:45 PM
back to *pea*ality: (I don't see your post on here but I just read it in my inbox). Thank you for what you said. I'm not upset over what I've read here thusfar. I was looking for more input to see if I was just being overly sensitive about it. This situation happened to me 6 years ago, so I'm very much healed. I've discussed it in therapy too, but I know I could have done more to maybe help other women from putting themselves in dangerous situations.

The person I was speaking to about this (a family member, actually), had this to say, "What I said is that a woman who uses her sexuality and is promiscuous with the desperate and/or naive expectation of arousing a man or searching for what she believes is love and acceptance greatly increases her odds of attracting a nut job or, worse yet, a potential rapist..." And THIS is why I'm so very upset. It's presumptious and just wrong to assume women would attract dregs of society if they're flirtatious or even promiscuous. When a man and a woman enter into a physical relationship, does that make the woman promiscuous????? Maybe it's an age-thing--where older people think this sentiment is true. Nonetheless, no one deserves to be raped, even in a relationship.

marycain: THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! Your words helped enormously!!! I do feel like I'm being judged by my family member, for putting myself at risk. I don't like trying to explain it all away, because I don't enjoy discussing it. However, it came up because I wanted to help my niece be the safest she could be. My views were quickly dismissed because my situation was different in the eyes of many. I was a 40-something year old who should have known better + I was probably luring the guy and "asking" for it. That hurts......... What you said was very helpful. Thank you for that.









birukitty
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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:55:39 PM
I am so sorry this happened to you OP. How horrifying that must have been.

Please be assured that rape is NEVER justified! Not ever, not in any circumstance, not for any reason.

No means no. Stop means stop. If anything happens past that you aren't responsible. It's on the rapist now. Only he is responsible for his actions.

Might I suggest that you find a group like AA for rape survivors? And maybe a therapist experienced with working with women who were raped. Sometimes it really helps to let it out and speak with others who have been there. A therapist can be extremely helpful to help as a guide as you sort through all that has happened and as an alley who will tell you the truth about rape. Maybe it's time to limit speaking to your peeps about this since their responses aren't helping you, but making it worse?

I sending you lots of hugs and wishes for peace.

Debbie in MD.

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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:57:43 PM

back to *pea*ality: (I don't see your post on here but I just read it in my inbox). Thank you for what you said. I'm not upset over what I've read here thusfar. I was looking for more input to see if I was just being overly sensitive about it. This situation happened to me 6 years ago, so I'm very much healed. I've discussed it in therapy too, but I know I could have done more to maybe help other women from putting themselves in dangerous situations.


I did not send pea mail or respond on this thread. I did respond on the hysterectomy thread. In any case, wishing you peace.

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Posted: 8/24/2013 1:59:44 PM
birukitty: Thank you. I did discuss this when it happened, with my regular therapist, and thought I was "over" it. I thought I could give helpful advise to my niece, but when I heard that my situation was different or that I placed myself in danger (so it was almost to be expected), it set me right back. I guess my work isn't done.

back to *pea*: Oops, sorry--saw it in my in-box and I assumed it was for this thread. I have no idea why the other one was bumped so many months later.









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Posted: 8/24/2013 2:01:19 PM
I'm sorry that happened to you. What a terrifying experience.



FlaMom
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Posted: 8/24/2013 2:11:14 PM
This very question haunted me for years. I allowed myself to get into a position that led to rape. I blamed myself for five years, never telling a single soul. It took that long, plus some counseling, to finally accept that while I should have been more careful, I was not responsible for the rape. His actions were totally on him.


Tammy

M in Carolina
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Posted: 8/24/2013 2:12:19 PM
Also, as women we need to teach our teen girls that oral sex IS sex, even if the President of the USA said it's not really sex. (Yes, i came of age under the Clinton administration).

You might not get pregnant with oral, but you can still catch STDs that way.

Blue balls is a stupid myth perpetuated by teen guys and immature men trying to cajole the girls they are with to give them sex when they don't really want to freely give it. For whatever reason.

Get out of a relationship if your partner won't stop doing whatever when you say stop. If he won't stop feeling you up when you ask him to, or won't stop the heavy petting, then he's not going to listen when you say stop for sex. That is on him, and it's called rape. As a young girl new to these relationships, you need to look for signs of his respect for you. If he has none, he's not worth your time, and he's not worth being your first, or second, or.

Dh and I waited to have sex until we were married. I didn't realize at the time that I had severe reproductive system issues. I knew the first time was going to hurt a bit. It hurt A LOT. I thought that everyone who told me that sex was enjoyable had LIED to me. (My doctor put me on antibiotics for our honeymoon, which helped, and then it took me two years to get my diagnoses of what all was wrong. i wound up with a total hysterectomy. ) Poor dh. There's a reason why I married him. He was amazing. Even though we were in the middle of his fantasy scenario he'd been looking forward to for 7 years, he stopped when he saw I was in pain. He was so gentle.

That scenario is what every woman deserves--a man who respects the whole woman. Not some guy so interested in getting some tail that he doesn't recognize or even care that she's in pain, or isn't ready, so he stops when she says no. Sex should be about both people, not just one of them.

All the forensic psychologists and law enforcement professionals say that Rape isn't about sex. It's about CONTROL. It doesn't matter how the woman looks, or how she's been flirting, if she says no, that means no. For a man (or woman) to continue having sex with her after the no, it's not sex anymore. It's about CONTROL. HE says when they're through. HE says no, not her. --who is *she* to tell ME when we're done.--- That's the thinking behind rape.

(((B)) I am so sorry you were raped. I can't imagine how hearing those people in your life try to "justify" the horrendous assault called Rape must have made you feel. I hope it didn't tear open old wounds. You did not deserve what happened to you. I hope the people in your life that matter to you aren't causing you more pain.



llnutswife
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Posted: 8/24/2013 2:20:30 PM
I am so sorry you have gone through this. Let me tell you from experience it doesn't go away completely you just become more accepting of the past and learn to distance yourself better. Your family member is a douche. You did nothing wrong and by trying to help your niece her parent should be on blended knee thanking you instead of being so disrespectful So instead I will thank you for loving your niece enough to speak up


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BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 8/24/2013 2:27:39 PM
FlaMom: Sounds familiar. He left me not knowing how serious the repurcussions were. Still, I didn't press charges and I gave him the benefit of the doubt that it was a one-time INSANE thing that happened--that he was "out of control". That was stupid of me and I wish I would have proceeded with the charges, because I don't know if he continued to do the same thing (or worse). I didn't want my children or my family knowing about this. First of all, you'd hear all about how stupid you were for putting yourself in danger, right? You'd hear all accusations. So, I only told 1 sister and my therapist. Even now, years later, it's still a raw subject and many people perceive it to be something you asked for. I'm so sorry you went through this too. I knew immediately I wasn't at fault--I saw the need for control in his eyes and I knew enough to try not to get killed that day. Pretty scary.

M: Yes, it started out to be my attempt at helping ward off a dangerous situation for my niece, but it turned out to opening old wounds that obviously aren't healed. Maybe I'm not using the right words but I'm very much hurt at the thought that I played a part in getting attacked.

llnuts: Thank you.









PaperTulip
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:12:36 PM
My boyfriend raped me. Everyone said it didn't count because he was my boyfriend. Including the doctor I saw about the pains caused by it.

merlot1024
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:14:37 PM
No always means no. Stop always means stop. Rape is never justified.

I'm sad people would think otherwise.


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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:20:52 PM
PaperTulip: I'm so sorry. Even within a marriage, there could be rape. That's just ridiculous and your doctor was an idiot.









tinaev
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:25:51 PM
I haven't read all of the responses so I don't know if this has been brought up or not.

Of course we all logically know that rape is not ok, ever. There is never any excuse for it and it is wrong in all circumstances. The victim is just the victim.

However.... it is very easy to get scared when you hear about someone being raped. That's something awful and uncontrollable and could happen to you! So what do we do? We start to think about why it happened. And well, obviously that girl was dressing too sexy and sending mixed signals, etc. And since I WOULD NEVER do that.... I'm safe. It's a coping mechanism to think this way.

Laurel Jean
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:26:47 PM

many women blame the victim as a means of distancing themselves emotionally from her. If they can tell themselves that another woman was raped because she was flirting, or dressed wrong, or hung around with the wrong crowd, or somehow "asked for it", then rape becomes something that only happens to someone who puts herself in a situation to be raped. If they aren't "that type of woman", then rape is not something they have to fear.


This cannot be said enough.

NativeNewYorker
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PeaNut 15,878
May 2001
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:48:45 PM

many women blame the victim as a means of distancing themselves emotionally from her. If they can tell themselves that another woman was raped because she was flirting, or dressed wrong, or hung around with the wrong crowd, or somehow "asked for it", then rape becomes something that only happens to someone who puts herself in a situation to be raped. If they aren't "that type of woman", then rape is not something they have to fear.

This cannot be said enough.


True. If it was merely a crime of a sexual nature then it wouldn't happen to babies and the elderly.


Staci
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This Black Butterfly

BergdorfBlonde
Getting blonder every day

PeaNut 162,956
August 2004
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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:57:56 PM
The more I read, the more upset I'm getting. I suppose it never goes away. Here's another doozie: A family member said they weren't entirely convinced it really happened (maybe I had sex with someone and I regretted it and just used the term "rape". I am repulsed by this notion. I told them that I'm sure my doctor could pull up his records of the rape. HE was the one who documented everything even though I wasn't interested in pressing charges at the time, but he said that I might change my mind in a few days (I didn't). So, the proof is definitely there. But to even say that it might not have happened is just such denial. I can't wrap my head around it. All I'm discovering is that this isn't a topic people (women especially) discuss too often. It took a long time to discuss it with additional people, and now I'm reminded why.









*Delphinium Twinkle*
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Posted: 8/24/2013 6:12:10 PM
Rape is NEVER okay


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AnneMD
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Posted: 8/24/2013 6:16:28 PM
I'm horrified that a doctor would tell someone that it isn't rape if the perpetrator was a boyfriend. That is just plain wrong. Statistically, rape is not most commonly a "stranger in an alley" type of situation. Most survivors of rape know the perpetrator in some way. A woman can be raped by a boyfriend and even a husband. If she says NO and it still happens, then it is rape. No means no. There must be consent - enthusiastic consent! Rape is about power and control - not sex.



marycain
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 8/24/2013 7:20:26 PM

But to even say that it might not have happened is just such denial. I can't wrap my head around it. All I'm discovering is that this isn't a topic people (women especially) discuss too often. It took a long time to discuss it with additional people, and now I'm reminded why.


I'm so sorry you're having to experience the pain all over again. Just try to remember that their negativity and doubt isn't really about you - it's about their lack of understanding of what rape actually is. I know it's very hard not to take such things personally, but their misconceptions and lack of empathy do not reflect in any way on you. You know what happened; you were there - they weren't. You do not need to explain or justify anything to them.

Please don't let their attitudes get you into a mindset of second guessing yourself and your choices. Remember that hindsight is always 20/20. It's easy to fall into the trap of looking back and thinking about all the things you might have done differently, but the reality is that making different decisions could have led to an even worse outcome.

Meeting him in a hotel room might have saved your life, because the awareness of other guests, security cameras, and so on might have deterred him from even worse violence. If he'd been able to get you into a car, or a parking garage, or some other isolated place, you might have been hurt even more seriously, or even killed. And if you had chosen to press charges against him, he might have tried to retaliate against you or your family.

You didn't do anything wrong. Whatever guilt or shame these family members are trying to shove off on you, it is misplaced. The only person to blame in this situation is the person who raped you.

The bottom line is that you made the best choices you could based on the information you had at the time. Most importantly - you made the right choices to keep yourself alive. You survived. That is what's important, not the opinions of family members who haven't a clue what you went through.

PierKiss
What if everything is an illusion & nothing exists

PeaNut 82,319
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Posted: 8/24/2013 8:06:38 PM
Your family members need to be whacked upside the head. Like in that scene in Moonstruck where Cher hauls off and smacks Nicholas Cage and yells "Snap out of it!" Seriously, they need to be educated on facts and myths regarding rape. I am so sorry that this happened to you. . I'm even sorrier that you have to listen to your family say such nasty things to you.

BergdorfBlonde
Getting blonder every day

PeaNut 162,956
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Posted: 8/24/2013 8:31:20 PM
marycain: Thank you again! Your words bring me peace of mind. Seriously. I don't "go there" too often and when I do remember things about it, I can't believe it all happened. I do do the "what if's". But I never thought of it from your perspective. I didn't bring charges b/c he knew too much info about me (where I lived, the fact that I had "children", etc...) and I was too scared. Would have been really easy since I have the emails with him admitting his guilt. Ooh well...... I get freaked out when I see Adam Levine on t.v., because he looks like his doppleganger!

Pier: My family is usually the most supportive, loving, wonderful family. When they're faced with something they disagree with, they band together and they're vocal. I was the first one (out of 6 siblings!!) to get divorced, so that was a big deal. I also had "affairs" before the divorce was final (the ex was dragging his feet for YEARS on purpose, and I had it after a few years!), so I'm at fault for that. These things will NEVER be forgotten, even if I've repented, got counseling and dealt with it in my own church. Still not good enough. They can't understand how I placed myself in dangerous situations, so it's easy for them to just write it off as a midlife crisis and not be supportive. It's unusual, and it does hurt, very much. I'd NEVER call any siblings out about their behavior or about something I'd do differently. I don't see why certain family members think it's okay for them to do that. Grrrrrr.








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