How does scrapbooking paper become "outdated"?

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Posted 3/11/2011 by TheBiscuitScraps in General Scrappin'
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TheBiscuitScraps
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:26:13 PM
This is a s/o of the thread about finding a package from a few years ago. Basic Grey Black Tie. Love that paper and I still have a set unopened in my scraproom.

Almost all the paper I buy is paper I really like. It doesn't become "outdated" to me. I keep hearing people talk about paper being outdated.

Doesn't compute. Scrapbooking has come a long way since the 1990's. A lot of paper goes through stores each year. It is discontinued and not printed again, but if it fits the photos and I like it, I just don't see it as "outdated".

You?


Carol
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SDeven
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:28:33 PM
I don't think it becomes outdated as much as *no longer new*. And no longer able to be acquired.






artistsdaughter
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:29:10 PM
I agree with you. There is always a use for something--even if it is in collage making, altered art,etc.

blackberry lou
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:32:24 PM
I think there is a current style trend you need to think about- I mean, a shirt's a shirt, but would you want to wear the trendy shirt you were wearing 15 years ago, even if it was in perfect condition?

That being said, I find plenty of old paper that still works great for me. Somethings are just classics.



aJerseyGirl
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:40:01 PM
The only paper that I would personally consider outdated is some that I bought 11 years ago when I first started scrapping and it wasn't very good quality. But once I started buying better paper, I don't care if the patterns are 8 years old, it's not outdated to me.

TheBiscuitScraps
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:41:45 PM
I guess I'm just not into trends. I usually buy things on sale and by that time, they are "passe".

I just bought AC Dear Lizzy Spring & Christmas, AC Abode, AC Walk in the Park, and AC Merrymint at TJ Maxx for $6 a pack. Great price and the paper is very pretty. It doesn't look trendy to me. I'm having a ball with it. I would not call it trendy....just cute scrapbooking paper.

I don't buy into trendy clothes either and I get a new car and drive it until it dies. What can I say.


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MaryMux
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:46:22 PM
I love almost every paper, sticker or embellishment I have bought for the last 12 years. I have really good taste, though,


Scrapn Nana
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:55:02 PM
I think it depends on how trendy you want to be. I like some of the older papers and don't always care for some of the newer papers, but then, I don't worry about being trendy. If I like a trend, I'll use it, but I'm not driven by trends or styles.

One of the best teachers at the LSS (or anywhere IMO) can take older products and use them in fresh, fun ways. She always has awesome projects.

I had some paper I thought I'd never use, but I hung onto it. I eventually had a set of photos that it was perfect for, so I used it even though it was really, really old by anyone's terms.

I don't really care if something is outdated or not, but then I don't care if I'm using the latest and greatest or not. Who's going to know in 10 years, anyway? No one in my family would have any idea, except me, and it's not important to me.


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ScrapinCT
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Posted: 3/11/2011 3:56:16 PM
I do see things that are outdated.

Like if you saw a paper from 1997 you could see it right away that it was "older".

No one is to say what you should use though! I get sick of things ALOT so I am always using new designs



Characterfan
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Posted: 3/11/2011 4:01:04 PM
It's really just the trendy stuff that becomes "outdated" like in 2 years all the papers with owls on them, banners, and such might not be the in thing and people will "over them".
I don't buy a lot of trendy stuff, but if I do I try to use it so in 2-3 years when I'm purging I don't go why in the world did I ever buy this. Though don't look in my closet it'll bore you. Only solids, and my Disney shirt collection.

I have some older BG "Oh Little Boy" and "Silly Me" time frame and I was just using it this week. I wish I still have some Black Tie and Motficia, but this was brand new when I started scrapbooking and hoarding or saving some for future use didn't even cross my mind.



jallen27
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Posted: 3/11/2011 4:07:28 PM
I really don't think it matters if the paper is old or not especially if the photos look good with it. I recently used some old, old Mustard Moon Grandpa's Overalls and it was perfect for what I was working on. Every once in awhile I find a use for some of my older stash and I doubt anyone really notices.

Dancingfish
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Posted: 3/11/2011 4:56:33 PM
I can tell you I have some paper that is outdated... It is over a decade old--It came in a pad.. Paper Pizzazz made some of it and provocraft made some it... lets just say there are some peices that have square to put your picture on and fake lace going across the top! lol not attractive at all!!

But I still have it in my stash because I can paint on it... use the back side of it.. cut letters out of it.. etc etc etc


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stampcrazychick
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Posted: 3/11/2011 5:54:29 PM
I've just always ignored the whole "outdated" thinking. I only buy what I like and I don't care when I get around to using it. When I come across older papers or embellishments in my stash I get a kick out of looking at them and remembering when I bought them and I still enjoy using them all these years later.

Judes4
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Posted: 3/11/2011 5:55:25 PM
I don't think it becomes outdated. A shirt has a cut to it, paper is just paper.


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scrapinmomof5
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Posted: 3/11/2011 6:33:49 PM
I like what I like and don't care if it's "out dated". I have to laugh when I see posts from people saying I want to redo my old scrapbooks because they look outdated or I now don't like the style I used back then. To me that's like going back to your pictures from the 70's and photo shopping your current hair style.

We all change and the point of scrapbooking( at least to me) is to record my memories and what we all looked like through the years. I have paper from 1998,the year I started buying scrapbooking supplies and still use it today. I've scrapped all my life,before there were "scrapbooking papers" so I don't care about the trends or what's in or out.



scrappingolfer
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Posted: 3/11/2011 6:41:15 PM
I'm not into "trendy" either, if I bought it I liked it, so why not use it at any time. I was going through my paper hopper last week, and run across some very cute paper that had gotten pushed to the back of the container. I pulled it to the front, and intend to use it on some of the next few layouts. (old or not)??


Jan*

Laura_J
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Posted: 3/11/2011 7:09:38 PM
Are you all really saying that your scrapping tastes haven't changed at all over the years??? I'm not trying to be trendy, I'm not trying to please anyone but myself with my scrapbooks, but I do look at some stuff I bought years ago and I no longer like it. Guess what? That's ok...I'm changing in other ways as well, it's not unreasonable to have my tastes change in scrapping.

That's what makes something outdated to me...not how old it is, but how I might respond to it...if my tastes have changed and I no longer care for it, it's outdated to me.

TheBiscuitScraps
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Posted: 3/11/2011 7:33:42 PM
Laura, in my OP, I said, almost all the paper I buy...

I buy some paper and pretty soon after, think..."what was I thinking"? I've never purchased the paper that has place printed on it to place the photo or inexpensive brands where the print is not very rich. I realize that those of you who started SBing in the 1990s did not have as much to choose from...

...but, for the most part, when I really like a paper, I don't veer off my love for it. Of course, my tastes change a bit...but more often than not, it is the WAY I use the paper that has changed.

If the design is really good, to me, I would be hard pressed to say it is "outdated".

I would never say Picasso, Monet, Van Gogh is outdated...granted, scrapbook paper is a far cry from their talent, but classic is classic, for me.


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seansmommy
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Posted: 3/11/2011 8:43:11 PM
My tastes definitely change, but there are some things I just love forever. A few weeks ago I went to a LSS that has a ton of Wild Asparagus paper. I went wild, buying one of pretty much all of it (except the pink ones...I don't DO pink!) and two of the one I really loved. I've never gotten tired of Wild Asparagus.





gmcwife1
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Posted: 3/11/2011 8:46:42 PM

Basic Grey Black Tie. Love that paper and I still have a set unopened in my scraproom.




That is my favorite line of paper

I was just looking at a co-workers photo book of quilts she has made and she mentioned some of her quilts being outdated and that pattern is so 80's.

I told her that just like our scrapbooking, the people that use her quilts have no idea what year our supplies were 'in'.

I'm not a trendy scrapper (or person) at all, so my stuff doesn't get outdated so much as my tastes have become more refined as I've aged. Just like my decorating has


~ Dori ~

nikomoon14
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Posted: 3/11/2011 9:17:31 PM
Thank you for this post. I've been thinking About this since like three weeks ago, when a Pea said something about Dear lizzy paper on TJ Max And it been outdate. I was like WHAT? I feel like I just noticed the brand in the magazines!!! and I was thinking about buying it for my 1 month old niece. I have a three years old so I kind of not scrapbook as often as before. but I think paper used to be considered new in stores for a littlebit longer...or no? All I know is that I always thought I was trendy until I started to get back here in the MB no I know I'm an oldie, who still has grany's kitchen scraps, and the full first line of colorful from KI memories and can't find the heart to throw away the left over chipboards of Heidi Swapp...

stampcrazychick
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Posted: 3/11/2011 10:17:12 PM

Are you all really saying that your scrapping tastes haven't changed at all over the years??? I'm not trying to be trendy, I'm not trying to please anyone but myself with my scrapbooks, but I do look at some stuff I bought years ago and I no longer like it. Guess what? That's ok...I'm changing in other ways as well, it's not unreasonable to have my tastes change in scrapping.


I never said my scrapping taste hasn't changed. It has, of course, but I find that if I buy what I love, it doesn't ever matter when I get around to using it -- I do still love it. Yes, even the stuff I bought 10+ years ago. The only difference is how I might use it or what I might put with it. I never, ever care about what's popular in scrapbooking . . . I buy what I love, use it how I want and only care about making myself happy with my finished pages/projects.

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Posted: 3/11/2011 10:41:01 PM
IMHO it's a term used by paid designers (which are also members of this site). They create pages for the purpose of selling supplies, so only currently available/active sku numbers are used. Any supply older than the latest release is typically considered "outdated."

Since I'm theme-challenged, I generally purchase & use only classic patterns (e.g. stripes, plaids, dots). Unless familiar with scrapbooking/manufacturer releases, you likely couldn't tell what year the patterned paper was produced when featured on a page in an album.

HTH & happy scrapping!

yellow5
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Posted: 3/11/2011 11:25:47 PM
THIS is outdated scrapbooking paper:

HOTP Our Holidays and Season

A line from AC, Basic Grey or whatever is not going to look outdated to me...you're right, cute s/b is cute s/b paper...except when it comes to the example above.

Trust me, I OWN THIS PACK. It is awful. In my defense though, I bought it at a garage sale for a quarter several years ago.

That said, J's still sells this paper in their open stock collection!!!

And I will say, that even if I was a non-scrapper, I would think paper like this is outdated. It has a very 90s feel to it. DH thinks it's outdated and he obviously does not scrap!

scrapinmomof5
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Posted: 3/11/2011 11:49:23 PM



THIS is outdated scrapbooking paper:

HOTP Our Holidays and Season

A line from AC, Basic Grey or whatever is not going to look outdated to me...you're right, cute s/b is cute s/b paper...except when it comes to the example above.

Trust me, I OWN THIS PACK. It is awful. In my defense though, I bought it at a garage sale for a quarter several years ago.

That said, J's still sells this paper in their open stock collection!!!

And I will say, that even if I was a non-scrapper, I would think paper like this is outdated. It has a very 90s feel to it. DH thinks it's outdated and he obviously does not scrap!




Well,that's your opinion and you are welcome to it but to someone else that style of paper or scrapping might not be "outdated". To me it's like decorating ones house,you might not like their taste but that's fine you don't have to live in their house. I just don't get it,I've always believed that there is no right or wrong way to scrap. Years ago BEFORE scrapbook paper was available I used wrapping paper and also made my own paper designs. Live and let live,buy what you like and don't worry if it's old,new,outdated or trendy because in the end your scrapbooks are for you and your family to enjoy.



EllenPea
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Posted: 3/11/2011 11:55:00 PM
I guess one problem I have with the so-called "outdated" paper is that if I have it, it is slightly harder to use because I can't buy new coordinating papers and embellishments. I can still use it if I want to mix things up, but if I don't, I have to use newer paper.

And another is that when I'm cruising the gallery for ideas, if I can say "I have that PP!" or "I can get my hands on that PP!", then I am more likely to use that PP. Harder to find new ideas when the PP is outedated.

But minor annoyances. I have a tower of outdated PP and a box of outdated PP. I am pretty sure some of it was even outdated before I bought it.



Gem Girl
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Posted: 3/12/2011 12:34:38 AM
What if we substituted the word "classic" for "outdated" in the sentence? Would that change how we viewed it?

Judes4
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Posted: 3/12/2011 2:01:02 AM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No right or wrong.


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An idealogue knows he is right. A person of faith knows only that he doesn't know.
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I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.
----Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820

KimmyS
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Posted: 3/12/2011 2:08:34 AM
Carol, I am right there with you. I only but paper I really like and use it up pretty much within the year (or two).
Just because I bought it over a year ago does not mean it is outdated to me. Paper doesn't expire and it is quite funny to see how many craft bits have come back into "fashion" after they were classed as outdated for many years (stickers and decoupage anyone???)


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pelirroja
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Posted: 3/12/2011 6:41:26 AM
I really like the quilting analogy.

I don't think papers become outdated. I buy what I like and use it when it's the right fit for a layout. Sometimes that means a new design and sometimes I choose something "seasoned" or "classic".

Between getting organized and purging what isn't my style, I have bought very little paper in the past two years. What I've got works and works well, since I don't care for the muted palettes and colors I see lately. I still love my Paperfever, KI bangles, and Doodlebug splash papers and will use them until they're gone.



Pelly





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Posted: 3/12/2011 7:30:18 AM
I recently unpacked boxes that had been packed for 6-7 years because I wanted to scrapbook again. I went through every embellishment and paper.

I think I might have only tossed 8-10 sheets of patterned paper. I did have some "wth was I thinking, that cr@p is fugly" moments, but not as many as I would have thought. Just like clothes, paper styles and designs might change, but I still lean towards the same colors/textures.

And for Basic Grey, there isn't a paper they make that I don't love, whether 6 years ago or today, I love them all.



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Laura_J
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Posted: 3/12/2011 8:39:26 AM

Laura, in my OP, I said, almost all the paper I buy...

I buy some paper and pretty soon after, think..."what was I thinking"? I've never purchased the paper that has place printed on it to place the photo or inexpensive brands where the print is not very rich. I realize that those of you who started SBing in the 1990s did not have as much to choose from...

...but, for the most part, when I really like a paper, I don't veer off my love for it. Of course, my tastes change a bit...but more often than not, it is the WAY I use the paper that has changed.
Carol, my post was more directed at some of the responses than to your OP. Some took a very hard line and it made me wonder "really??? are you really being honest with yourself on this one???" I guess my response was more to the "I don't have to be trendy" defense...I don't feel the need to be trendy, as I said before, I don't scrapbook to please anyone but myself, but I do look back at stuff and go "what the heck was I thinking" about some past paper purchases, lol!


I never said my scrapping taste hasn't changed. It has, of course, but I find that if I buy what I love, it doesn't ever matter when I get around to using it -- I do still love it. Yes, even the stuff I bought 10+ years ago. The only difference is how I might use it or what I might put with it.
Well then you're doing better than me in this regard...perhaps sometimes I buy what I think I love and then later I realize it was only a crush


THIS is outdated scrapbooking paper:

HOTP Our Holidays and Season
Couldn't agree with you more on this one...thanks for the laugh!

scrappinJudy
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Posted: 3/12/2011 8:47:24 AM
i still have the original SEI color blocked sets. i don't go to them to use them often, because they are not as 'interesting' to me (& i"ve looked at them for a looooooooooong time!), but i don't want to get rid of them! [I actually used one of 2 lines in a Bali travel album!]


my scrappy goals for 2012:
. finish all the bits and pieces on LOs which are missing a letter, or a picture needs to be reprinted, etc.
. finish up H's albums
. make an acrylic album
. finish my heritage albums
. sort Dad's genealogy stuff
. try to finish up the several albums that are started; label them; move them downstairs where they can be enjoyed
. make mini albums
. oh, yeah, get my [s]crap place organized & KEEP IT NEAT!


Duchess of Stuff
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Posted: 3/12/2011 9:30:12 AM

I love almost every paper, sticker or embellishment I have bought for the last 12 years. I have really good taste, though,




Love that quote. I am always buying Daisy-D so guess I like old stuff. I do not like *cutsy*, *bright* except in limited amounts for the toddler set. I have a lot of the HOTP books and still use some for matting or I tea tye it, really changes the look. When I first started reading this type of thing here I was thinking I had no taste. Now I think I just have MY taste and that is OK since no one else sees it anyway.

queenofshoes
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Posted: 3/12/2011 9:32:58 AM
I find sometimes paper loses it's appeal to me after time. What I once thought was cute paper, I know longer do. That's when it goes to dd.

Lesa



myshelly
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Posted: 3/12/2011 9:37:06 AM
I don't think paper gets outdated as quickly in your *stash* as it does in a *store*.

If I walked into a *store* and the paper lines weren't from the current CHA, but were from before that, I would think it was outdated.

But, when I go to my stash or look at blogs or galleries, I don't think stuff from summer CHA or even last year's winter CHA is outdated.


yodlo
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Posted: 3/12/2011 9:42:17 AM
I live near the HOTP warehouse, and in the past they often had warehouse sales so I have a TON of their paper (as do a lot of scrappers in the area.) One of the local gals used some of it to make a mini-album with what some might call "outdated' paper- but she "updated" it by distressing, inking, misting, stamping, etc. It was amazing how it changed the character of the paper, which now looked "vintage" in the current style.

I am also doing the Counterfeit Kit challenge and found at least 2 of those old HOTP papers that worked perfectly in my Counterfeit kit. I have the space so I don't purge, and it gives me plenty to share with my dd when they want to do a project.




M

scrappinJudy
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Posted: 3/12/2011 10:28:59 AM

or I tea tye it


what does that mean? "Tea tye????"


my scrappy goals for 2012:
. finish all the bits and pieces on LOs which are missing a letter, or a picture needs to be reprinted, etc.
. finish up H's albums
. make an acrylic album
. finish my heritage albums
. sort Dad's genealogy stuff
. try to finish up the several albums that are started; label them; move them downstairs where they can be enjoyed
. make mini albums
. oh, yeah, get my [s]crap place organized & KEEP IT NEAT!


scrapprincess2002
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Posted: 3/12/2011 10:33:22 AM
i dont think i have any pp i would say i wouldnt use or is outdated I liked it when i bought it and i still like it
funny thing when basic grey first canme out with the smudgy messy card stock i didnt like it at all now i buy any i can find i love it even from the very first lines and its getting harder to find sad but hey if there are some gals out there that wanna cast off some old out dated stuff we scrappy lovers will be there to catch it and make it look awsome on out pages right!!

I am Jen
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Posted: 3/12/2011 1:20:44 PM
Many strong opinions on this subject


My thoughts are that it is certainly like fashion going in & out of style. Doesn't the scrapbooking design industry follow fashion trends, like a lot of design does. Doesn't fashion start many color trends for the upcoming seasons for furniture, decorating, home design etc? I don't think you have to be into following trends or a trendy dresser to notice a style trend that was out in the 80's or 90's. But classic pieces never go out either. As far as scrapbooking goes, I would not consider something from the past few years to be out of style at all, but I definately agree that the first years of "printed scrapbooking papers" do look outdated and scrapbooking has found a classier look overall. But of course, this is just my take and opinion on the subject.




paperpea
PeaFixture

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Posted: 3/12/2011 3:15:20 PM
It depends on the paper. If you like the trendy woodland creatures then yes, it will look dated. I steer clear of that kind of stuff.


tracy

"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.“ Thomas B. Reed (1886)

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul." George Bernard Shaw

Twins Rock
PeaAddict

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Posted: 3/12/2011 3:49:48 PM
Some of the crap I bought at my first scrapping event my cousin dragged me to would be considered outdated, but I didn't pick it out - just sort of got pushed into buying it. Since then, I would say that I would use most of what I have bought since starting in 2004 and not considered it outdated. I am not a big trend follower - I just pick what I like.

jalapenette
PeaAddict

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Posted: 3/12/2011 4:12:50 PM
I don't worry about whether or not a paper is "outdated", but I do not use a paper I do not like. And some way or another, (I blame my obsession with buying paper stacks) sometimes I end up with paper I don't like. And yes, I would agree that certain papers from the dawn of scrapbooking were never very fabulous and are now outdated because the overall design of papers has improved, but for the most part it's all good.


-Rachelle


*Mommy to Adam, born October 2010, and Tommy, July 2012*



scrapper100
Budletsmom

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Posted: 3/12/2011 6:44:47 PM
I don't worry too much about something being outdated if I like it I like but I have to admit my tastes do often change and I seem to like the newer stuff better than the old. Today I have been putting page kits together and planning pages with "older" paper. None of it is that old but not what would be considered trendy right now. I made a really cute LO though so I am happy. I try and focus on the photos and not the paper and embelishments.


Patti

scrapper2k
BucketHead

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Posted: 3/12/2011 8:41:14 PM
I have paper I bought years ago that I still love and paper I bought recently and don't like at all. Trends come and go but it makes no difference to me. If I like it, I use it. If I don't, I get rid of it.

The thing with following trends is, that then we look in our books and wonder what we were thinking. I'm not a designer or interested in being published so I don't care. I don't think clothing is a good analogy. My books stay in my house and a new page created with 10 year old paper is still a new page.

oh yvonne
Pea-rom Queen

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Posted: 3/12/2011 10:27:36 PM
meh, I don't want to scrapbook with old stuff, I get tired of looking at it after a while.

I'm fickle like that.

I want the new. fresh and funky. Always.

to me, stuff does get old and stale. I can scrapbook occasionally with the equivalent of the 'basic cardigan and pearls' that's timeless, but only so much. If I've seen it in my closet for too many years and I've worn it, used it too much, I get bored.



******************
Yvonne, lover of old garden roses, my DH Enrique, Marissa and Dahlia Lynn!

"what is yvoone class prom queen or something of pea high? Thats gotta be the big joke here under the bleechers."
~the "great" pea~pea


ising2dlord
AncestralPea

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Posted: 3/12/2011 10:30:51 PM

Not outdated.

I think some people buy paper because it's the "latest and greatest" and feel that it's "outdated" whenever something newer comes out. But some people buy just what they like, and continue to like it even after there is something newer available.


Nicely said.


I like what I like and don't care if it's "out dated". I have to laugh when I see posts from people saying I want to redo my old scrapbooks because they look outdated or I now don't like the style I used back then. To me that's like going back to your pictures from the 70's and photo shopping your current hair style.


Lol...that is exactly how I feel! Why redo your book? Looking back at your old layouts is like looking back at history. It was a trend or style at the time, and your layouts are historical documents.

Also, I think many people confuse PAPERCRAFTING with SCRAPBOOKING. Scrapbooking is literally taking scraps of your life, ticket stubs, and misc. items and putting them in a book. Scraps of your life. Scrapbooking has changed into papercrafting where beautiful papers and layouts are designed using the latest and greatest. They are mini pieces of art. Nothing wrong with this. So, I say leave your old layouts alone. Use what you like. Keep on moving forward!


Andrea

SueSume
Sleeping with a Serial Killer

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Posted: 3/13/2011 12:50:08 AM

I agree the some of the problem maybe with the verbiage: "outdated" vs. "classic”. Outdated has such a negative vibe...

I amuse myself when I use paper from 2005 with this year's pictures and this year's paper with photos from 1996. I imagine the confusion of some distant scrap-archeologist unearthing my books and trying to "understand" them historically



*********Sue Who? *******


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klh54
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Posted: 3/13/2011 5:54:39 AM
So funny, I was just going through my papers trying to find some specific colors and realized I still love all the "classic" Basic Grey (I adore Motifica and Scarlet's Letter) and Chatterbox (remember all the rooms?) papers I "hoard" as well as the Scenic Route and SEI papers I have. I do have a few papers that I won't use just because I really didn't like them that much...can't even say it was a "crush" When I looked at the back (back in the days of one sided only papers) I see they were all marked down so must have been a big sale where I just bought papers indiscriminantly
I do use my "classic" papers, yet I can see why the designers cannot-as was stated by someone already, most of the "classics" are not available any longer and since they are selling product they have to use the current lines. Makes perfect sense to me...but I'm still going to use what I personally love over what is the "trend". I'd go broke trying to keep up



paperpea
PeaFixture

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Posted: 3/13/2011 6:22:43 AM
Chatterbox rooms are perfect examples of papers which are not outdated. Stripes, plaids, dots and floral patterns are pretty timeless. I <3 my stash of Chatterbox paper.


tracy

"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.“ Thomas B. Reed (1886)

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul." George Bernard Shaw
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