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leftturnonly
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 |  Posted: 9/13/2012 12:51:23 PM
President Barack Obama, 9/13/2012
"I don't think we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy. They are a new government that is trying to find its way," Mr Obama said in a television interview with Spanish-language network Telemundo.
Cairo has been key US ally since 1979 Egypt-Israel peace deal, and the US gives more than $1 billion in military aid to Egypt every year.
Egypt was a close and vital Middle East ally of the United States while outsed President Hosni Mubarak was in power.
President Barack Obama, 9/12/2012
"There's a broader lesson to be learned here," Mr. Obama told "60 Minutes" correspondent Steve Kroft at the White House. "And I -- you know, Governor Romney seems to have a tendency to shoot first and aim later. And as president, one of the things I've learned is you can't do that. That, you know, it's important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts. And that you've thought through the ramifications before you make 'em."
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raindancer
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 1:56:23 PM
I have not had a lot of time to follow this story and all the sordid details. But I have a question.
What would we do, were a group of protestors to get out of control and breach the walls/fences/defined space around our White House or our congress?
What would the response be to those groups of people if they were armed and trying to kill those people?
Would we try to negotiate and make excuses? Or "take aim" first, all while trying to be "understanding" of their plight? Or would we shoot?
I think that if we would shoot in that context, we should shoot in the context of our embassies as well.
Regardless of why we think they might be unstable.
It isn't relevant. Our embassies are sovereign and the people serving in them should be better protected. |
~Heidi~
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raindancer
Capt. Sparrow's Pirate Wench
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 1:56:26 PM
I have not had a lot of time to follow this story and all the sordid details. But I have a question.
What would we do, were a group of protestors to get out of control and breach the walls/fences/defined space around our White House or our congress?
What would the response be to those groups of people if they were armed and trying to kill those people?
Would we try to negotiate and make excuses? Or "take aim" first, all while trying to be "understanding" of their plight? Or would we shoot?
I think that if we would shoot in that context, we should shoot in the context of our embassies as well.
Regardless of why we think they might be unstable.
It isn't relevant. Our embassies are sovereign and the people serving in them should be better protected. |
~Heidi~
"You can make excuses or you can make progress but you can't make both."
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hop2
AncestralPea
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 1:59:40 PM
"I don't think we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy. They are a new government that is trying to find its way," Mr Obama said in a television interview with Spanish-language network Telemundo.
That is a scary statement to me. | |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 2:12:06 PM
I'm waiting for the peas who think that Romney looks too weak in foreign policy to come on here and explain Obama to me.
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Nightowl scrapper
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 2:49:04 PM
Apparently we used to think they were our ally and just a super friendly bunch of folks, as there are reports coming out that Marines in Egypt had no live ammo. The ambassador to Egypt would not allow the Marine guards to carry live ammo. According to reports.
Now, I'd like all the folks who fervently wish Sec Clinton were president to explain HER to me. She's in charge of the state dept, she hires the personnel, she oversees operations. If these reports about basically disarming Marine guards is true, she must have known they were winging it with beanbags and rainbows. Surely the fact that an embassy in a country that is just getting on its feet after a bloody revolution, a country with a sizeable population opposed to our country, was being protected by Marines not permitted to actually have lethal ammunition MIGHT have come up at some point. 'Cuz I'd like to think there's a state dept policy that the guards are actually armed unless the Secretary approves otherwise. Maybe that's just me thinking.
This is a 60's peace protester's dream come true. Wonder if they had daisies popping out of the ends of their rifles. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 2:54:17 PM
Apparently we used to think they were our ally ...
Being an ally of the US is not the same thing as being on someone's Facebook friends list.
It's not supposed to be that fickle.
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lovetodigi
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 2:55:18 PM
From the OP's link
"I don't think we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy. They are a new government that is trying to find its way," Mr Obama said in a television interview with Spanish-language network Telemundo.
He said that so far Egypt's government has "said the right thing and taken the right steps" but it has also responded to other events in ways that "may not be aligned with our interests".
President Obama also said that he expected Egypt to protect the US embassy and its staff.
"If they take actions that indicate they are not taking those responsibilities, as all other countries do where we have embassies, I think that's going to be a problem," Mr Obama said.
Again...context is everything 
ETA: more from the linked article
After last year's uprising and the resurgence of the once-banned Muslim Brotherhood, question marks have been raised over the future of the relationship.
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 2:59:04 PM
You don't need to wink. I put the link in so you could see the whole thing in context.
They *are* our ally, though. Whether they continue to be our ally based on this new government may have been a better way for Obama to have stated his intention.
With all this talk about what makes Romney look weak, *I* think this makes Obama look weak.
ETA - notice also that I included the "nor an enemy" in my title. |
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Mimima
Stay Gold, Ponyboy
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:02:36 PM
I guess that's the question, Lefty - when the government changes, does their ally status change? What about Iran - we were allies with them when the Shah was in power.
That's honestly how I look at it - it's a true statement. We were allies with Egypt when Mubarak was in power, we aren't sure of our status at this time with Morsi (sp?) in power.
(on a side note, and this is not a Two Peas thing, but a FB vent I'm bringing here. If I see one more person talk about us being ally's with Egypt I'll reach through the monitor and strangle them  ) |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:05:51 PM
We were allies with Egypt when Mubarak was in power, we aren't sure of our status at this time with Morsi (sp?) in power.
So our huge financial aid *might* be in question?
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Sarah*H
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:11:39 PM
Chuck Grassley was on MSNBC this morning and he said essentially the same thing; he said if Egypt is no longer going to abide by the Camp David accords, they should no longer receive aid but that it's too soon to make that call. It's a new government, I don't think anyone on Two Peas or in our government has a crystal ball. |
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hop2
AncestralPea
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:13:23 PM
I guess that's the question, Lefty - when the government changes, does their ally status change? What about Iran - we were allies with them when the Shah was in power.
This is exactly why that statement is a scary statement to me. I clearly remember that time period. And all the 'context' in the link doesn't make it any less scary. The statement in the first post is not out of context and all the further info in the link doesn't change it's meaning.
If you were working to maintain the status as ally with the new government then you wouldn't announce to the world that they weren't your ally. That would not make sense. So he is confirming that we have lost an ally (though not gained an enemy.... yet ) | |
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Nightowl scrapper
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:13:25 PM
So our huge financial aid *might* be in question?
Well, now you're getting ridiculous. If we're going to throw money at Pakistan begging them to be our friends (after they beat and jailed the dr who gave us bin Laden), surely your hard-earned tax dollars can be shipped off to Egypt. |
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mom_to_a_girl
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:13:34 PM
"I don't think we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy. They are a new government that is trying to find its way," Mr Obama said in a television interview with Spanish-language network Telemundo.
I think the last figure I saw is that we gave Egypt $1.6 billion this year. So we routinely give that much (borrowed) (taxpayer) money to someone we don't consider an ally? Huh. | |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:14:40 PM
It may be a new govenrment, Sarah, but when did that official status of ally get moved officially into the grey area?
And if they aren't officially in a grey area, then this was a big gaffe by Obama.
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WannaPea
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 3:15:35 PM
If we're going to throw money at Pakistan begging them to be our friends (after they beat and jailed the dr who gave us bin Laden),
That was sure a kick in the ass, wasn't it? |
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wren*walk
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 3:16:22 PM
I don't see what is hard to understand.
They have just elected a new government and their ally/enemy status is as yet unproven and unknown.
They don't get automatic allyship just because the previous administartion was with us. If that were so, we would still have been allies with Germany when the the Nazis took over.
Don't you understand that? | |
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Sarah*H
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:23:58 PM
And if they aren't officially in a grey area, then this was a big gaffe by Obama
Possibly. Or possibly it could be a coordinated message from our government to Egypt after the events of the last 2 days - get your act together. |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:31:03 PM
wren, many countries continued to keep diplomatic relations open when the Nazis first came in to power, so that's not helpful here.
...it was vitally important to present a rational image as a responsible European statesman while he established the NAZI Fuhrer state and launched a secret rearmament program. . Once in full control of Germany, he dramatically changed to a more aggressive German warlord. At the time that Hitler and the NAZIs seized power in Germany, they were vulnerable. They had many domestic political opponents, a free press, and an independent judiciary. In addition, the German military was militarily weak. It could not have effectively resisted an Allied intervention. Thus the Allies could have intervened in Germany and reestablished democratic rule. Hitler needed to play a careful political and diplomatic game.
The Reichskonkordat was negotiated with the Vatican and guaranteed the religious, but not the political, rights of the Catholic Church in Germany (1933). Much of Hitler's venem as he rose to power was directed at Poland which becaise of the Polish Corridor phyically divided Germany. Thus the signing of a Non-aggression Treaty with Poland relieved many Europeans (1934). This was seen as aihn that once in power, Hitler was becoming more moderate. This was followed by a Naval Arms Treaty with Britain (1935). A major factor in Britain's growing animosity with Germany had been the Kaiser's decesion to build a Highseas Fleet. The British-German Naval Treaty seemed to defuse tensiins between the two countries. Hitler also assured France that he had no designs on French territory. The Berlin Olympics provided the NAZIs the opportunity to show case NAZI successes (1936). After the games there was a substantial change in NAZI diplomacy.
link
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TheBiscuitScraps
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:38:56 PM
Possibly. Or possibly it could be a coordinated message from our government to Egypt after the events of the last 2 days - get your act together.
I was thinking the same thing, Sarah. |
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:40:36 PM
wren, many countries continued to keep diplomatic relations open when the Nazis first came in to power, so that's not helpful here.
Keeping diplomatic relations open is exactly what Obama is doing.
Again, do you not understand that when there is a major regime change in an ally's country, they should not automatically remain an ally? At some point, Germany was no longer an ally but an enemy of the US. Now they are an ally again. I'm trying to figure out what is so hard to understand. | |
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Me GOP
Movin On Pea
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 3:44:55 PM
But didn't we fund the new regime? |
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:51:07 PM
But didn't we fund the new regime?
The overall goal to keep Egypt as an ally is in our and Israel's interest. | |
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Fraidyscrapper
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:52:22 PM
I'm with wren. Not sure what the issue is. | |
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Me GOP
Movin On Pea
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:54:15 PM
Well obviously, but if we funded those who came to power, what changed for them?
It surely isn't about one movie for the new government to turn it's back. |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 3:56:37 PM
Again, do you not understand that when there is a major regime change in an ally's country, they should not automatically remain an ally?
I understand that.
That's not the point. Egypt IS our ally, Wren. The White House backed off Obama's statement.
President Barack Obama didn't intend to signal any change in the U.S.-Egypt relationship last night when he said Egypt is not an "ally," the White House told The Cable today.
And yes, we are funding them and incurring enormous debt to do so.
Sarah, I hope this means that their status may be quesionable, but I hardly think that was the way to inform them of that.
Rich, in the light of him saying that Romney shoots first and aims later.
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:01:47 PM
So what was the point again?
I must have missed something.
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:04:58 PM
The point?
Looking for some balance here on the board.
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Fraidyscrapper
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:06:44 PM
Lefturn, I don't think it's shocking to them that should they turn against the US (or Israel) and do x, y, and z that it would be a game-changer. | |
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scraps_of_time
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:07:50 PM
Hasn't there been some strain in that relationship since Egypt put the NGO workers on trial? |
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:08:10 PM
I don't have a problem with what he said.
It puts them on notice.
The ball is in their court to protect our people and our embassy. Or not.
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Nightowl scrapper
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:10:40 PM
That's not the point. Egypt IS our ally, Wren. The White House backed off Obama's statement.
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President Barack Obama didn't intend to signal any change in the U.S.-Egypt relationship last night when he said Egypt is not an "ally," the White House told The Cable today.
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I think this is of concern. If the idea is to put them on notice that they're on a slippery slope with us, far different wording should have been used, wording that didn't need to be walked back. Amateur hour is upon us when the POTUS says "they're not our ally" and a few hours later the word comes out "oh, no change is meant by the POTUS saying an ally is not an ally". |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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Me GOP
Movin On Pea
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:10:55 PM
True. But WHY did they not in the first place when we helped fund the regime change? |
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*Jenny*
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:13:46 PM
"There's a broader lesson to be learned here," Mr. Obama told "60 Minutes" correspondent Steve Kroft at the White House. "And I -- you know, Governor Romney seems to have a tendency to shoot first and aim later. And as president, one of the things I've learned is you can't do that. That, you know, it's important for you to make sure that the statements that you make are backed up by the facts. And that you've thought through the ramifications before you make 'em."
I made a comment on this most excellent quote from our handslapper in chief y'day.
I'm still wondering at what point Obama learned this lesson about waiting for the facts before inserting his almighty opinion. Before or after Henry Louis Gates? Before or after Trayvon Martin was killed?
Rich. |
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Guatemama
StuckOnPeas
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:18:24 PM
I find his reply to be spot on. The status of Egypt being an ally shouldn't just be assumed to continue under new leadership. The new leadership in Egypt will need to prove, by their words and actions, that they will continue the tradition of being an ally. It's too soon to tell, but this situation will be a good first test. I'm patiently watching this tenses situation play out. IMO, it was an appropriate statement representing this place in time. | |
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:32:32 PM
If the idea is to put them on notice that they're on a slippery slope with us, far different wording should have been used, wording that didn't need to be walked back. Amateur hour is upon us when the POTUS says "they're not our ally" and a few hours later the word comes out "oh, no change is meant by the POTUS saying an ally is not an ally".
Geez. OK. I didn't know we were in the presence of an authority on diplomatic relations.
Then why don't you submit your resume and maybe they'll hire you to guide present and future presidents on how to address foreign governments in the midst of a crisis. Seems like you must be wasted here.
Really, these threads are getting ridiculous. If all you want to do is sling mud from now until November I think I'll bow out. You don't need any cute fake titles, just preface them "More Obama Idiocy:" and I'll know to give them a wide beth. Some of you are sounding really, really desperate. I guess that is a good sign for us. | |
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Anna*Banana
:blink:
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:41:34 PM
With the exception of Israel, I don't know that we can count on any of our so called allies in the middle east. I think it's all a game of chess and word games. One that would make my head hurt!
I am not going to second guess how, why or what is being said at this very moment as I think we're in such a precarious position in the area of world peace and safety for our citizens abroad.
The idea of buying allies and friendships with money and loan forgiveness is an extension of Jimmy Carters' check book diplomacy.  |
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desertpea
Jeepers PEApers
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 | Posted: 9/13/2012 4:48:15 PM
Their aid is dependent on the whether or not they are upholding the peace agreement with Israel, mutual recognition, etc.
The Muslim Brotherhood does not recognize Israel's right to exist. | |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 4:52:21 PM
Lefturn, I don't think it's shocking to them that should they turn against the US (or Israel) and do x, y, and z that it would be a game-changer.
The White House has said that this hasn't been a game-changer, and I'm going to add my personal "yet" to that.
Should this be something worked out diplomatically between the US and Egypt. Absolutely.
President Obama was out of turn speaking as he did. At the best, he jumped the gun speaking about something that isn't resolved.
At the worst, he made a diplomatically awkard gaffe.
Is it the worst thing possible he could have done or said? No. Neither was the statement Romney made that Obama deemed as being shot first and aimed later.
Yet look at the difference in the way the two different men are being portrayed here on the board.
Look at the difference in the responses on the thread about Romney's statement and this one.
There are a lot of people who aren't being represented by this imbalance, and that's why I posted this thread.
Don't like that Wren? Buh bye.
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wren*walk
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:04:25 PM
Yet look at the difference in the way the two different men are being portrayed here on the board.
Look at the difference in the responses on the thread about Romney's statement and this one.
There are a lot of people who aren't being represented by this imbalance, and that's why I posted this thread.
Oh, this is some type of experiemental thread. I see. So what are the stats? Do you have a control? Do you have the same population represented in this as that other thread?
WTF?
Maybe, just maybe, some people, like me, who didn't even post on that other thread, have NO problem with what Obama said and yet have a major problem with what Romney said. Because, oh I don't know, because they actually believe what Obama said makes sense (that ally-ship is not on auto accept after major regime changes) and that Romney was acting like a desperate, amateur, oppotunistic fool when he criticized the embassy statement.
How are those people who chose not to post being represented any better here on your experimantal thread btw? | |
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Fraidyscrapper
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:05:12 PM
The White House has said that this hasn't been a game-changer, and I'm going to add my personal "yet" to that.
Correct. Which is conveyed in the statement, neither a trusted ally nor an avowed enemy.
Glad we all agree.
Even as a misstatement, it is not a parallel to the Romney misstatement. | |
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leftturnonly
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| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:17:15 PM
Even as a misstatement, it is not a parallel to the Romney misstatement.
*I* think it was worse. *You* don't. That's OK.
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,544
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:24:19 PM
After last year's uprising and the resurgence of the once-banned Muslim Brotherhood, question marks have been raised over the future of the relationship.
I think we are cautiously optimistic about Egypt being our ally, especially after the recent change in administration there. Historically, Middle East countries (with the exception of Israel) have always been questionable allies. They don't like us, but they like our money, and they want to be able to call on us if they're in trouble, but I sure wouldn't put them in our BFF column. If it suits them to not be our friend, they'd flip in a heartbeat. | |
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~*kristina*~
Typical Liberal Pea
PeaNut 55,230
November 2002
Posts: 17,509
Layouts: 106
Loc: Hawkeye Nation
| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:27:53 PM
Even as a misstatement, it is not a parallel to the Romney misstatement.
Not even close to the blunder Mitt made.
I saw the interview with Telemundo last night on Rachel Maddow and I agree with him. It's a new government, untested as far as their loyalty to the United States....maybe they'll be a an ally, maybe they won't. Let's see how they handle what happened the other night. After the angry mobs from the other night, I think it's prudent to take a "wait and see" attitude.
"I don't think that we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy," the president said.
"I think that we are going to have to see how they respond to this incident," Obama said.
"Certainly in this situation, what we're going to expect is that they are responsive to our insistence that our embassy is protected, our personnel is protected," Obama said.
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Fraidyscrapper
Serious Interlocutor
PeaNut 38,100
May 2002
Posts: 12,479
Layouts: 0
Loc: Jersey Strong
| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:46:49 PM
Not even the issue, lefturn. It's not a parallel. |
| "The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy | |
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
PeaNut 481,431
September 2010
Posts: 1,822
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 9/13/2012 5:49:31 PM
Besides, none of us apparently were meant to post on this thread.
It was for the ones........that don't post to these threads? | |
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adak
BucketHead
PeaNut 429,191
July 2009
Posts: 990
Layouts: 0
 | Posted: 9/13/2012 6:06:42 PM
They have just elected a new government and their ally/enemy status is as yet unproven and unknown.
They don't get automatic allyship just because the previous administartion was with us. If that were so, we would still have been allies with Germany when the the Nazis took over.
Okay, but I would think that the president and his state department spokesperson would be on the same page. The president says no and his spokesperson says yes. Which is it? This really does make the president look like an amateur.
Maybe he should have stayed in DC and worked out this little detail with the state dept. rather than flying out to Vegas for his fundraiser.
Even as a misstatement, it is not a parallel to the Romney misstatement.
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*I* think it was worse. *You* don't. That's OK.
I agree with Lefty, Pres. Obama's is much worse because HE is the president.
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Edgy Coolness
PeaFixture
PeaNut 365,853
March 2008
Posts: 3,514
Layouts: 0
Loc: Dallas, Texas
| Posted: 9/13/2012 6:15:24 PM
I was always taught if you have to "buy friendship" then they really aren't your friends.
Make of that what you will but it very telling when our closest "paid" allies have spied on us for years with our very own citizens.
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
PeaNut 481,431
September 2010
Posts: 1,822
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 9/13/2012 6:19:31 PM
Okay, but I would think that the president and his state department spokesperson would be on the same page. The president says no and his spokesperson says yes. Which is it? This really does make the president look like amateur.
You say tomayto and I say tomarto. I don't pretend to know all the intricacies of diplmacy on the world stage, and refuse to second guess it
I guess that is why you vote Romney and I vote Obama. | |
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