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lynlam
Don'tcha wish your girlfriend had spurs like mine?
PeaNut 46,248
August 2002
Posts: 6,378
Layouts: 41
Loc: Ohio
 |  Posted: 10/8/2012 3:09:11 PM
"Companies don't move to other countries so they can take advantage of a "moving expenses" tax break. Nor would companies decide to keep their company in the US just because they would lose that "moving expenses" tax break. In the overall expenses of a company, the tax deduction they get for moving is pretty small.
Companies move to other countries because it costs so much less to do business there and export it back into the US.
Closing the tax loophole will have no effect on whether companies stay in the US or not."
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Ding ding ding!!!!! Winner winner, chicken dinner! 
Obama is once again using fuzzy math and outright lies to whip the masses into a frothy frenzy. |
 
"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge
Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill. | |
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desertpea
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,267
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 3:54:36 PM
And now I'm reminded of my high school Latin teacher when I propose, Reductio ad absurdum, that we offshore all manufacturing, legal analysis, medical transcription, software development and anything else that can be moved off shore. I'll include surgical procedures and nursing because we've shown that a remotely controlled robot can do it just as well. What will be left in the US. Backyard gardens? Barter? The sex trade? I guess so. Would you be happy, DesertPea.
Oh for crying out loud... you finally nailed the straw man of all straw man arguments trying to make it out that I, a fiscal conservative, want all business to leave the US. Really, the debate loss affected you that much?
I don't support policies designed to restrict economic freedom and provide anemic job creation. I certainly do not support everyone's taxes going up by an average of 50% in less than 90 days either. Obviously, that isn't a priority for the President or the Senate.
So now we're back to your original theory that every Republican pointed out was false, and most supporters of Obama self-identified on the far left that Obama appears a centrist to them. I am not surprised in the slightest. | |
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
Posts: 9,384
Layouts: 0
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 5:22:02 PM
Companies don't move to other countries so they can take advantage of a "moving expenses" tax break. Nor would companies decide to keep their company in the US just because they would lose that "moving expenses" tax break. In the overall expenses of a company, the tax deduction they get for moving is pretty small.
Companies move to other countries because it costs so much less to do business there and export it back into the US.
So make it more expensive to export it back into the US. Or even go a step further - stop 'em at the border. Don't ALLOW them to export it back into the US. You're an "American" company and want to base your operations in China/Singapore/Indonesia or wherever? Well, I hope they can afford to buy your products, too, because you won't be allowed to sell them in the USA. And the rest of the first world should get on board and refuse to take the goods as well.
Force them to create the jobs at home or they won't have anyone to sell their products to. |
-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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Sue_Pea
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 36,163
April 2002
Posts: 9,867
Layouts: 5
Loc: here, there and everywhere
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 5:22:15 PM
And let's make sure we are honest about what the effect will be. The federal government might realize a tiny, tiny bit more revenue because the company can't take the deduction. However, the company and the jobs will still move out of the US. So closing the loophole should not be done because we think we are saving US jobs. It should only be one small part of tax reform and spending cuts to reduce the deficit. [\quote]
I agree. They have every right to move, but we should not provide any subsidy, no matter how small. I also agree that we need comprehensive tax reform. |
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jonda1974
The new Rhinestone Cowboy
PeaNut 107,564
September 2003
Posts: 8,465
Layouts: 0
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 9:41:40 PM
I agree it just wouldn't work putting the extra tax on the companies for exactly the reasons you've made BUT
as I said earlier, they shouldn't benefit from the deductions that they are allowed to claim in the same way that companies who re-locate within the US do.
I don't disagree with you on this. Even though it is a small amount, it will affect prices. But as others have said, it won't stop businesses from relocating. Unless we find ways to make manufacturing more cost effective in the US, then regardless of that deduction, businesses will still move overseas.
And punishing them with high import taxes, only forces higher prices on those who can least afford the hike. |
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jackieb410
PeaWee
PeaNut 543,253
February 2012
Posts: 7
Layouts: 0
Loc: Alabama
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 10:31:41 PM
Romney could start speaking alien. He still has my vote. It's all about jobs and the economy. He is a math geek just like Ryan. These guys will turn this mess around. |
Jackie
Www.jackiebarfield.blogspot.com
Stampin' Up! Demo | |
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aka_sasha
PeaNut
PeaNut 507,933
May 2011
Posts: 415
Layouts: 0
 | Posted: 10/8/2012 11:33:56 PM
I never thought he was really anything but center -- he just pandered to the hard right.
Personally, I want centrists be in Republican or Democrat. Not a fan of extremism in either direction. | |
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
Posts: 9,384
Layouts: 0
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
| Posted: 10/9/2012 12:22:17 AM
And punishing them with high import taxes, only forces higher prices on those who can least afford the hike.
Not if you put in price controls, thereby setting a limit to their profit margin and, again, taking away any benefit to them moving their manufacturing out of the country, thus essentially forcing them to stay. And again, even better - treat them as foreign companies. Set a limit to the % of foreign owned companies allowed to operate within the US economy. Make that # so small that most of these companies are no longer ALLOWED to sell their merchandise on US soil. If you take away their markets and the only way they can get them back is to play ball - start creating decent jobs FOR Americans IN America - they will fall into line.
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-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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Skybar
Perfect Peaing
PeaNut 188,727
January 2005
Posts: 24,010
Layouts: 0
Loc: AZ desert
| Posted: 10/9/2012 1:23:30 AM
Would you want a President to speak without thinking? Used car salesmen talk quickly too, but I would put one in charge of the nuclear codes.
that's just what you have in BO
You're an "American" company and want to base your operations in China/Singapore/Indonesia or wherever?
A LOT of American companies also have locations in other countries.
Force them to create the jobs at home or they won't have anyone to sell their products to.
force 'em - eh? Well, no wonder you're a supporter of BO. He will. Didn't he attempt to keep a bz from opening a new operation in SC? (or was it NC?) He thinks he can just order everyone around to do what HE wants and thinks they should do. At the rate he's going (and if re-elected) there won't be many businesses left in this country - so then where ya gonna work?
Doctors are planning to retire early, businesses are cutting back and discontinuing healthcare for their employees. anyone who wanted bz to survive here wouldn't be doing the things he is doing. He wants most everyone to be 'owned' by the gov / him for survival - not their own job/talents of choice.
yeah. great idea to force people. Maybe they'll gladly leave this country under dictator BO.
So much for a free country and free people. The American Dream.
His hatred for this country is becoming more and more obvious every day.
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"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt
On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:
"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."
Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:
"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."
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rainbow_scrapper
I'm in NO SHAPE to exercise patience.
PeaNut 308,697
April 2007
Posts: 7,644
Layouts: 18
Loc: where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet
 | Posted: 10/9/2012 3:26:05 AM
Not if you put in price controls, thereby setting a limit to their profit margin and, again, taking away any benefit to them moving their manufacturing out of the country, thus essentially forcing them to stay. And again, even better - treat them as foreign companies. Set a limit to the % of foreign owned companies allowed to operate within the US economy. Make that # so small that most of these companies are no longer ALLOWED to sell their merchandise on US soil. If you take away their markets and the only way they can get them back is to play ball - start creating decent jobs FOR Americans IN America - they will fall into line.
IOW put them into a tiny little box and shrink that box smaller and smaller until you get exactly what you want. FYI they didn't start that business for YOU. They started it for themselves. If anyone else is hired and makes any money then good, if not too bad. If you don't like how their company is then start your own. Nobody is stopping you. This is a FREE country. Or it was. BO and the socialism crap has to GO. |
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lynlam
Don'tcha wish your girlfriend had spurs like mine?
PeaNut 46,248
August 2002
Posts: 6,378
Layouts: 41
Loc: Ohio
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
Posts: 9,384
Layouts: 0
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
| Posted: 10/9/2012 2:59:03 PM
Lynn - there are already some things I'm forced to do because it's for the greater good of society. That's life, and yes, I'm happy with that. We must have a balance between the desires of the individual vs. the greater good. And that balance, imo, should tip towards favouring the greater good over the individual when necessary.
I admit that the whole, "Ban these companies who outsource from being allowed to sell their goods in the USA/Canada/the 1st World! That'll show 'em!" was a wee bit of over-the-top hyperbole.
I would, however, treat a company that outsources as a foreign company and I would set limits to foreign investment. Trudeau did it in Canada to give our companies help against American competition. He was right to do that, and we need to get back to that. We have got to put up some kind of fight against these multi nationals that outsource jobs, and it can't just be, "Pretty please, bring some business back home." There has to be some expectation, as part of the social contract, that if you want the priviledge of owning a business, you have certain social obligations. That business license comes with responsibilities to the greater good of society as a whole - not just to the desire of shareholders and execs who want to get rich.
FYI they didn't start that business for YOU. They started it for themselves. If anyone else is hired and makes any money then good, if not too bad.
They should be starting businesses because they want to contribute to the world. They should have a certain obligation to contribute to society, not just their own profits.
Extreme, full-on Marxist communism is admittedly very likely not the way to go. But this rampant, laissez-faire capitalism that doesn't set any expectations for business beyond profits, regardless of the social cost, is no better. |
-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.
PeaNut 416,788
March 2009
Posts: 19,591
Layouts: 0
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World, again.
 | Posted: 10/9/2012 3:06:17 PM
There has to be some expectation, as part of the social contract, that if you want the priviledge of owning a business, you have certain social obligations. That business license comes with responsibilities to the greater good of society as a whole - not just to the desire of shareholders and execs who want to get rich.
They should be starting businesses because they want to contribute to the world. They should have a certain obligation to contribute to society, not just their own profits.
Oh honey. Most people start businesses because they need to earn a living for their families.
It isn't a privilege to open a business in America. It isn't something reserved for the few. Anyone can do it, whether they realize or recognize that potential or not.
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If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.
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PunchPrincess
PeaNut 17,063
June 2001
Posts: 12,662
Layouts: 0
Loc: where 71 and 70 meet
| Posted: 10/9/2012 4:53:19 PM
But this rampant, laissez-faire capitalism that doesn't set any expectations for business beyond profits, regardless of the social cost, is no better.
Amen to that.
Let me as the Peas one simple question. If there were a medication that would stop your child's cancer in its tracks and there were only enough vials of it to last a very limited time and the drug company that holds the patent doesn't plan on making it, how would that make you feel?
It happens in this capitalistic, hedonistic society every day. Medications, called "orphan medicines," exist but because the disease they were made for is so rare and the cost so high (according to the way the drug company calculates costs) that rather than distribute the drug, they keep it under lock and key. I agree that "most' people start businesses to feed their family -- but seriously, after a few generations of feeding your family VERY WELL, would you be the proud member of a family owned company that keeps life saving medicine off the shelf in order to make a few more bucks?
If you do, you have a black, black soul.
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PunchPrincess ( def. A long, long time ago when I first started scrapping I discovered punches -- round, square, squiggles, cars, etc. You name it. Like coat hangers they multiplied, under the bed I think until they were threatening to take over that precious space that we all covet and refuse to cede to other family members. Thus I became PunchPrincess. )
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momofkandn
PeaAddict
PeaNut 159,041
July 2004
Posts: 1,041
Layouts: 0
Loc: Maryland
| Posted: 10/9/2012 5:32:07 PM
Let me as the Peas one simple question. If there were a medication that would stop your child's cancer in its tracks and there were only enough vials of it to last a very limited time and the drug company that holds the patent doesn't plan on making it, how would that make you feel?
It happens in this capitalistic, hedonistic society every day. Medications, called "orphan medicines," exist but because the disease they were made for is so rare and the cost so high (according to the way the drug company calculates costs) that rather than distribute the drug, they keep it under lock and key. I agree that "most' people start businesses to feed their family -- but seriously, after a few generations of feeding your family VERY WELL, would you be the proud member of a family owned company that keeps life saving medicine off the shelf in order to make a few more bucks?
If you do, you have a black, black soul.
Of course I would be livid with the drug company and do anything and everything I could to change their minds about making the drug.
However, through the entirety of human history, we have learned that a governmental body cannot successfully legislate morality or ethics. All governments and religions have tried it. It never works. It always turns into oppression and the "greater good" is quickly forgotten with the power that comes with the ability to regulate people's lives. So no, I don't look to a big brother government to come in and save the day by forcing a company to produce a product for any reason. Even if it was to my benefit. Today I might enjoy that kind of governmental control. But that gives them the power to also tell companies to stop producing things that I like.
Freedom has it's costs. There is no perfect system. But I'll take that any day over a government that thinks it knows better than me when it comes to running my life or my business. | |
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desertpea
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,267
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!
| Posted: 10/9/2012 7:10:35 PM
Let me as the Peas one simple question. If there were a medication that would stop your child's cancer in its tracks and there were only enough vials of it to last a very limited time and the drug company that holds the patent doesn't plan on making it, how would that make you feel?
It would make me think the person saying this has no idea how the pharmaceutical industry and tort works. | |
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
Posts: 9,384
Layouts: 0
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
| Posted: 10/9/2012 7:40:17 PM
However, through the entirety of human history, we have learned that a governmental body cannot successfully legislate morality or ethics. All governments and religions have tried it. It never works.
That's not entirely true, actually. I don't have a textbook nearby, sadly, but social psychologists have shown over and over again that you can change attitudes by mandating behaviour. You absolutely CAN legislate morality.
We've seen it with the civil rights movement. People may balk initially - and when the schools we desgregated, they did - but eventually, their thinking 'catches up' to the laws. And yeah, let's be honest and admit that sometimes those laws can have a negative impact. The rise of 'no fault' divorce, the state getting out of people's bedrooms, etc., has had an impoact in the increase in divorce, unwed mothers, adultery, etc., because there is no longer a tangible penalty that comes with those things. |
-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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momofkandn
PeaAddict
PeaNut 159,041
July 2004
Posts: 1,041
Layouts: 0
Loc: Maryland
| Posted: 10/9/2012 7:55:30 PM
I don't view civil rights as legislating morality. To me, that was protecting a citizen's constitutional rights regardless of race or gender. We didn't enact the amendments solely because it was morally right. We did it because we recognized that race and gender could not prohibit someone from being considered a US citizen and therefore they were entitled to all the rights under the constitution.
An example of legislating morality in more recent times would be prohibition, prosecution for adultery, or your example of forcing a company to produce a product simply because some may need it. | |
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Wildcatmom
Right-Wing Extremist
PeaNut 27,343
January 2002
Posts: 21,230
Layouts: 6
Loc: in red country
| Posted: 10/9/2012 9:17:15 PM
You absolutely CAN legislate morality
You absolutely CAN NOT. Government can force BEHAVIOR but not THOUGHT. |
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"This will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave" Elmer Davis
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missbitts
Know-It-Most
PeaNut 273,938
August 2006
Posts: 5,228
Layouts: 50
Loc: Hawthouse
| Posted: 10/9/2012 9:21:17 PM
^^now I'm sittin' next to Wildcatmom | |
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
Posts: 9,384
Layouts: 0
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
| Posted: 10/9/2012 10:32:32 PM
You absolutely CAN NOT. Government can force BEHAVIOR but not THOUGHT.
Actually, that's fair. But the studies show that eventually, thinking will change to mirror behaviour. It's not really relevant though. I don't care what people think... their thoughtsa re their own. What matters to me is how they behave. Whether they like having to behave a certain way is their business.
People don't have to like seat belt laws, speed limit laws, blood alcohol and driving laws, no smoking laws... it's not relevant. But they don't get to simply ignore those laws because they disagree with them. If their thinking never changes, that's fine. But their behaviour had better bloody well be in compliance to the laws of the land.
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-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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AthenainCA
Right Pea on the Left Coast
PeaNut 230,510
November 2005
Posts: 18,306
Layouts: 10
Loc: SoCal
 | Posted: 10/9/2012 10:50:16 PM
But they don't get to simply ignore those laws because they disagree with them.
Yeah, they can.
There might be a penalty to pay, but anyone, anywhere can ignore the law for whatever reason. It happens millions of times a day, I'm sure, all across the country.
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desertpea
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,267
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!
| Posted: 10/10/2012 1:04:28 AM
There has to be some expectation, as part of the social contract, that if you want the priviledge of owning a business, you have certain social obligations. That business license comes with responsibilities to the greater good of society as a whole - not just to the desire of shareholders and execs who want to get rich.
Can you please put a name to this economic system you are advocating?
Businesses have a responsibility to their customers and their investors. I know this is a foreign concept to most on the hard left, but the more profits a company makes, the more they pay in taxes. That taxation and obeying laws is the extent of social obligation. | |
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jonda1974
The new Rhinestone Cowboy
PeaNut 107,564
September 2003
Posts: 8,465
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 10/10/2012 1:52:26 AM
We must have a balance between the desires of the individual vs. the greater good. And that balance, imo, should tip towards favouring the greater good over the individual when necessary.
That's not freedom.
We have got to put up some kind of fight against these multi nationals that outsource jobs, and it can't just be, "Pretty please, bring some business back home." There has to be some expectation, as part of the social contract, that if you want the priviledge of owning a business, you have certain social obligations. That business license comes with responsibilities to the greater good of society as a whole - not just to the desire of shareholders and execs who want to get rich.
I thought you believed in the global community. Are you saying that the people who are employed by companies overseas don't deserve the jobs they are given, because you or I need one?
Not if you put in price controls, thereby setting a limit to their profit margin and, again, taking away any benefit to them moving their manufacturing out of the country, thus essentially forcing them to stay.
You do realize that those kinds of totalitarian ideals go against the very grain of freedom. Not only that, but it is obvious from this statement that you don't work in manufacturing. Limit prices? Limit profit margin? You do realize that many of the things we enjoy have very very little margin. Take technology for example. Let's talk cameras, since this is a scrapbook message board. You realize that the retail margin on those is only about 5-7%, at least the last time I knew. Which means that to even be able to give that kind of margin to retailers, the profit margins on the manufacture is the same or less?
Not only that, but the profit margin doesn't go just into the pockets of the fat cat employers you think it does. You reduce profit margins, you reduce benefits, salary and employment for those people who work for that company. You also severely limit the growth of that company to be able to increase those very things. If as everyone says we have to recognize we are part of a global economy, then we have to deal with the competition being in a global economy brings. Produce the better mouse trap cheaper than anyone else, and that is where you make your profits. |
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AthenainCA
Right Pea on the Left Coast
PeaNut 230,510
November 2005
Posts: 18,306
Layouts: 10
Loc: SoCal
| Posted: 10/10/2012 2:09:59 AM
We must have a balance between the desires of the individual vs. the greater good. And that balance, imo, should tip towards favouring the greater good over the individual when necessary.
That's a huge shudder-inducing idea to me. |
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