Rabbi Cahn tells about the miracle and mysteries of Hanukkah

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Posted 11/12/2012 by Skybar in NSBR Board
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Skybar
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Posted: 11/12/2012 3:03:59 PM
he's on the Jim Bakker show again this week. it's on TCT now (AZ time 2 pm) and will repeat in the evening on TCT (377 on directv).

I love hearing him tell about the Bible from his Jewish (Hebrew) knowledge of it.

He speaks a bit about 9/11 (The Harbinger) and then onto the Miracle of Hanukkah in the 2nd half hour of the show. (after some other stuff on food storage, water filters etc)

He says that Hanukkah is prophecy in the OT (Daniel) but not celebrated until the NT. ?? Feast of Dedication. In John 10. who knew?

He gives an overview of Maccabees (history) and the rededication of the Temple.

That's the best explanation of Hanukkah I've ever heard - not that I've heard much about it.

I'll have to rewatch it and take notes but doubt it's something I'll forget.

Christians should want to know their Jewish heritage - Jesus was a Jew. It gives a huge insight and understanding of the NT.


He also has a mystery of Christmas to 'reveal' (I don't know what it is so have no idea how much of a 'mystery' it is). This won't be on today but another day this week.

I do know that from other times I've listened to him that I want to hear more. His rendition of Ruth was incredible.



batya
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Posted: 11/12/2012 3:09:06 PM

He says that Hanukkah is prophecy in the OT (Daniel) but not celebrated until the NT. ?? Feast of Dedication. In John 10. who knew?


This is obviously not Jewish belief since Jews do not believe in the New Testament.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 11/12/2012 3:52:56 PM
But wouldn't that just be a timeline thing? The timing between prophecy and officially celebrating would still be the same; it's just that Christians identify it as a NT occurrence.

Don't know if I'm explaining myself well. Sorry.

batya
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:02:43 PM
Not necessarily b/c it wouldn't be a prophecy that was carried out, it wouldn't have the same significance or meanings, the NT is totally irrelevant to Chanukah... the interpretation sounds like nothing I've ever heard an I've been Jewish for 38 years and counting.

She's saying he gives an explanation. And it uses supposed history and reasoning that has no relevance to the story at all.

I guess anyone can put spin on whatever they want to make a point. And if it gives her some comfort to have that explanation, why not. But by no means does it have any Jewish significance and anyone reading this should know that.

Skybar
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Posted: 11/12/2012 5:34:09 PM

This is obviously not Jewish belief since Jews do not believe in the New Testament.

is it celebrated in the OT?




lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 11/12/2012 6:39:02 PM
I totally agree with Batya.
It's nice that you want to understand our holiday, but there is no connection to the nt.

lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:06:08 PM
Rabbi Cahn is a messianic Jew.
Basically he wants to convert us to Christianity -

I'm fine with being a Jewish person. Thanks.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:24:35 PM
Another Jew standing with Batya and Lindy on this one---the NT has no bearing on my beliefs or practices as a Jew.

scrapmaven
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:34:24 PM
Are you referencing Jonathon Cahn? FTR- He is not a practicing rabbi. Instead he's a practicing minister who calls himself rabbi. Do you know which rabbinical school he attended? A practicing Jewish rabbi would not believe in the NT; on the contrary, a practicing minister would believe in the NT. That is what differentiates the two religious leaders.

lucyg819
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:44:08 PM
I've had this argument so many times before that you'd think I'd know better, BUT ...

Rabbi Cahn is neither Jewish nor a rabbi. He's a Messianic Jew (aka a Jew who converted to Christianity but still calls himself a Jew, at least when it's convenient to do so).

In other words, he's a Christian.

If skybar and others enjoy hearing what he has to say, that's great. Just don't confuse him with an actual Jew.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:00:37 PM
You know, Lucy, I only seem to have this ridiculous argument here. All my IRL friends who are Christian can tell the difference between Judaism and Christianity. It is not subtle, actually.

In case it is still escaping some one, JEWS DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST. Simple.

TXDancermom
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:21:04 PM
I have a co-worker who is jewish, and she and I have had some interesting conversations regarding traditions. I think that every christian should spend sometime learning about those traditions, because those are the roots of christianity.


Skybar
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:40:00 PM
If you haven't listened to him on it or haven't read the NT on it then you have no idea if or how it relates to the NT.

He is Jewish, I don't think he stopped being Jewish because he now believes in Christ - Who was also Jewish.

John 10 -

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."



scrapmaven
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:49:00 PM
He is not a rabbi. All of our rabbis are practicing and devout Jews. He is a Christian by choice. You're either one or the other. Again w/the kosher ham argument.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:49:10 PM
I have read the New Testament. More than once. I have also read parts of the Koran. I have read chunks of the Bhagavad Gita. I have read many, many things. That does not mean that any of those texts have any bearing on my beliefs or practices as a Jew.

peano
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:50:15 PM

If you haven't listened to him on it or haven't read the NT on it then you have no idea if or how it relates to the NT.


Tap. Tap. Tap. Is this thing on? Helloooo. We don't care if or how it relates to the New Testament. The New Testament is immaterial to Jews.


He is Jewish, I don't think he stopped being Jewish because he now believes in Christ - Who was also Jewish.


Yes, Skybar, once he starts believing Jesus is the Messiah, he is no longer Jewish.

GrinningCat
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:56:18 PM
Seriously Skybar... you're wrong. Again. You'd think you'd clue in to how wrong you always seem to be.

I'm an athiest... I don't subscribe to either Christianity (particularly your incredibly bizarre version of the religion) or Judaism. But you know what? I know a hell of a lot more about both than you do. If you really want to learn about Judaism, learn from an actual rabbi. This fraudster is not a rabbi. At all. Even I know that. And I'm one of those big bad athiests you love to hate.

lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 11/12/2012 9:19:01 PM
Oh dear- I went for dinner and this is what happens?
Ill check back later

batya
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Posted: 11/12/2012 10:12:35 PM

I don't think he stopped being Jewish because he now believes in Christ


He has to.

Do you think someone stops being Christian just b/c they start believing in Allah, Mohammed? They still believe in Jesus, don't they? They do!


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Posted: 11/12/2012 11:38:29 PM
He is not a rabbi! He is not a Jew! He is a follower and believer of Jesus. This makes him Christian!!! You can't be Jewish and accept Jesus as your savior.

enjoytotheend
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Posted: 11/12/2012 11:43:30 PM
Wow you are arguing with women who have grown up Jewish. You really think that one Christian "Jew" knows more than them? Really?

dynalady
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Posted: 11/12/2012 11:59:56 PM
You know, telling Christians they don't know what Christianity really is is bad enough, but trying to tell Jews what is or isn't Jewish is just beyond arrogant, not to mention insulting. And using a NT reference to prove a point regarding Judaism is like referencing the Koran to prove a point regarding Christianity. Add stupid to arrogant and insulting.

Skybar
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:47:24 AM

Yes, Skybar, once he starts believing Jesus is the Messiah, he is no longer Jewish.

so, Jesus didn't believe in Himself? Mary (His mother) didn't believe in Him?


I know a hell of a lot more about both than you do. At all. Even I know that. And I'm one of those big bad athiests you love to hate.

maybe about being Jewish - but not about being a Christian.

you don't even know what you think you do about me. I don't hate atheists. but go ahead and call me a hater...


Do you think someone stops being Christian just b/c they start believing in Allah, Mohammed? They still believe in Jesus, don't they? They do!

Allah and God are not the same. The God of the Bible - that Jews and Christians believe in is the same God. Christ is the fulfillment of the OT prophecy.

Have you read Isaiah 9?

So because he believes in Christ (the prophecy of the OT) he loses his birth heritage? no. Neither did Christ or the Apostles. Jesus even said He came first to His 'own' but they rejected Him.

So many of you say Christians can believe what they want and still be Christian - but Jews can't? lol!


Wow you are arguing with women who have grown up Jewish. You really think that one Christian "Jew" knows more than them?

he grew up Jewish too - as did many other Jews who now believe in Christ.


but trying to tell Jews what is or isn't Jewish is just beyond arrogant, not to mention insulting

sorta like the atheists who know more about Christianity than Christ does?
or someone who says they're a Christian but they don't believe what Christ says?
right.

If Jewish people haven't studied the NT how would they know Hanukkah doesn't have anything to do with Christianity? It seems it does - even into the book of Revelation.

Christianity has deep roots in Judaism.




lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 11/13/2012 2:16:09 AM
Skybar, do you actually think that you can create a new interpretation of the roots of your religion?

I don't think that. You should continue this "discussion"

I'm glad you like the story of Hanukkah as it was told to you by this guy who calls himself a rabbi.

There are many stories and books about Hanukkah written by Jews.

I hope we can sleep with peace - Shalom

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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:13:36 AM

You know, telling Christians they don't know what Christianity really is is bad enough, but trying to tell Jews what is or isn't Jewish is just beyond arrogant, not to mention insulting. And using a NT reference to prove a point regarding Judaism is like referencing the Koran to prove a point regarding Christianity. Add stupid to arrogant and insulting.


Yep. Geez Louise SB. You need a hobby. And not this one.

Mrs Smarty Pants
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:18:45 AM
Isn't the Jewish faith based on the fact that they are still WAITING for the messiah? So the ENTIRE New Testament is null? Or am I just too simplistic in my own understanding?

batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:04:40 AM
MSP-you are SPOT ON.

Jews-waiting for the messiah - NT means nothing

Christians-the Messiah came, some of you may have heard of him?

Skybar-

you're saying you can be Jewish and still believe in Christ.

that is the same as saying

you can be Christian and believe in Mohammad or Allah

It's being the prior religion and believing in the supposed god that came next.

You can say one million times that I'm wrong, but I am completely correct, it is a valid analogy.

If you grow up Jewish and now believe in Christ, you've CONVERTED.

Otherwise, dear, you are STILL CATHOLIC.


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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:07:05 AM
batya... have I mentioned that I love you?

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:10:36 AM
For the record, once again, BELIEVING IN CHRIST MEANS YOU ARE NOT JEWISH.

And also for the record, I continue this debate not because I have any belief that I am going to change Skybar's opinions, but because I don't want anyone else opening her threads and being misled.

batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:14:12 AM
GC-that might only be legal in Canada, I'm sad to say.

ETA: Ditto Mamashosh.

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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:15:54 AM
Skybar, why do you deflect honest questions and reasonable discussion, by throwing out unrelated points to what is being discussed here? What does what other people think about Christians have to do with your incorrect understanding of what it means to be Jewish? Do two wrongs ever make a right? Why do you believe what you see on one TV show over what the real, practising people of the Jewish faith are trying to tell you?


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Posted: 11/13/2012 10:21:59 AM

so, Jesus didn't believe in Himself? Mary (His mother) didn't believe in Him?
Can you show me in scripture where Jesus uses a label to define his religious beliefs? Where Mary does?


Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:12:52 AM
Skybar's posts aside, can the Jews here help me a little? I want to understand the differences in our beliefs.

I was taught that Jesus was a Jew. Historically, whether he is or is not the Messiah, he is still a Jew. Is that a universal belief?

I understand you do not belief the NT with regard to Jesus's ministry, but are there historical references in the NT that are considered authentic in the Jewish faith? IOW, is there anything, any kind of historical references in the NT that coincides with teachings of Jewish history at all? Or is the entire NT considered a fallacy?

kshenkar
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:17:33 AM
Oh, my. As I'm fond of saying, there IS a religion for Jews who believe in Jesus--it's called CHRISTIANITY. "Jews for Jesus" uses Judaic symbols and terminology to convert Jews who don't have enough of a Jewish education to sort out the theological inconsistencies. It's no surprise that they heavily target USSR immigrants since they had no formal Jewish education.

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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:23:08 AM
Kshenkar, ITA.

As far as Judaism is concerned, the NT is a Christian religious document. It is not an historically verified document. So Jesus is someone who may or may not have existed and is not relevant to Judaism in any way shape or form. You are looking at Judaism through a Christian lens. We don't see it that way.

If Jesus existed, he was a Jew.

There is nothing about the NT within the Jewish Faith. So there is nothing about it to be believe or agreed up on or looked at in anyway in the Jewish faith. That's like asking if any parts of the Koran, although not prophecy, are considered authentic in the Christian faith. It's a non issue. You don't even consider it. It is extrinsic and has nothing to do with you. It's like asking me whether Lord of the Flies is looked at a certain way in the Jewish faith. It's just some book that other people read. It's out there, but it has nothing to do with me. So in my mind, I'm not even sure why you're asking me about it. KWIM?

I wouldn't say fallacy. It's a non-entity. If you want to say fallacy, sure. But we don't even get that far b/c our religion doesn't deal with it.

GrinningCat
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:25:37 AM

GC-that might only be legal in Canada, I'm sad to say.


Oh I'm pretty sure athiests and jews can marry in the States.

batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:27:45 AM
*snort* I know lots of mixed marriages like that at my synagogue.

Dalai Mama
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:28:27 AM

I don't think he stopped being Jewish because he now believes in Christ
Cool. Then you won't mind me continuing to call myself a Christian even though I no longer accept Christ as my personal saviour. I mean, I still sing Christmas carols so it's all good.

Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:35:06 AM

I don't think he stopped being Jewish because he now believes in Christ
Cool. Then you won't mind me continuing to call myself a Christian even though I no longer accept Christ as my personal saviour. I mean, I still sing Christmas carols so it's all good.


I know the Dreidel Song, what does that get me??? =P

Skybar - Jewish can mean religion or ethnicity. So he can still be ethnically Jewish and religiously a Christian, which is what he is as Batya explained to you.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:36:24 AM
That's fascinating. Thank you for the explanation.

All I have ever known of Jewish belief is that they do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

The indifference to his existence is a new facet to me.

I still don't quite understand the argument about Messianic jews being only Christians. I get that they're not Jews by faith, but I thought being Jewish was also equivalent to being American, or Polish, or German. I thought there was as much identity is your blood as there would be in a faith. Obviously not, according to the posts, but can you expound on that a bit?

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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:45:23 AM

Cool. Then you won't mind me continuing to call myself a Christian even though I no longer accept Christ as my personal saviour. I mean, I still sing Christmas carols so it's all good.
That's what gets me - that this is coming from someone who declares that many self-declared Christians are not, in fact, Christians. Makes my head spin.

I guess that's on me. If I am looking for logical consistency, I should get what I deserve.

CountryHam
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:47:52 AM
Some of the most fascinating Christians I have met are those who come to the full knowledge of Christ out of the Jewish faith. They spent years studying the prophecies of the coming Messiah and when they finally realized that promised Messiah has already come it's awe inspiring. To listen to the knowledge of how the OT reveals the Christ and how the feasts and prophesies are forerunners of what is to come. Then fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Because of their deep understanding of the OT it's such a blessing to listen to their teaching through the knowledge of Truth.


batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:52:04 AM
There is no Jewish nation. So it can't be like being German or American.

There is Jewish culture but that's not a religion.

Once you accept Christ, you can call yourself a Jew, a Christian a carrot or an alien. But by definition if Christ is your savior, you are a Christian. Any Christian or Jew can tell you that.

Messianic Jews are Christians who still follow Jewish rituals.

You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time any more than you can be atheist and Christian or Muslim and Christian. You just can't.

The central tenet of Judaism after you take away all the bells and whistles of ritual and works and everything else is that the messiah has not come and we are still waiting.

The central tenet of Christianity is you have accepted Christ, the messiah who ALREADY CAME, as your savior.

Once you strip it all bare and you take away the arguments and the christmas tree and the religious symbols and the buildings and the denominations, etc. you are left with:

Christian-messiah came
Jew-messiah didn't come

So you pretty much have two belief systems that are diametrically opposed at their core.

You can be a Christian who has Jewish heritage. For example, lets say you come from a long line of Jews who converted during the Spanish Inquisition and no you are all Christians of some kind. You still have heritage of a long line of Jews. But that doesn't make your religion/belief system Jewish. And there is no Jewish 'race' (That was a Nazi belief. Jews can be white, black, Asian, etc) So what you have are Christians who have ancestors who were once Jewish. Who may still practice rituals b/c their ancestors did.

I am a Jew. I can sing Ave Maria. But it doesn't make me Pavoratti.

Short version-
being Jewish is not a nationality
being Jewish is a religion
being Jewish is a cultural identity (bagels, yum)
having Jewish ancestors but having converted to Christianity, does not make you Jewish

BUT-you will always be considered Jewish to the Jewish community and will not have to convert formally back to Judaism if you want to come back to it.

So- this 'Rabbi' Cahn, if he wants to renounce Christ/Christianity and come back to Judaism may do so without a formal conversion (classes/ritual circumcision) if he chooses.

Thank you for allowing me to thoroughly confuse you.

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Posted: 11/13/2012 11:55:11 AM
Country ham-I have no problem with that. They call themselves Christian and that's their interpretation? Fine. Have at it.

Muslims believe that Christ is one of their prophets and read what you call the OT and NT as prophesy to the Koran. How wonderful is that! Cool, right. When Abraham brought his son bound (the akedah) to be slaughtered on the altar and he was being tested by G-d, it wasn't Isaac they say he brought, but Ishmael.

Interpretation.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:03:03 PM
OK, Batya, I'm glad that you made that last comment, because I am definitely a bit confused.

I definitely get the difference between Jew and Christian.

I'm thinking my hangup is that some are cultural Jews who are practicing Christians. Those exist, or no?

I definitely thought there was a belief in a Jewish nation, despite the fact that Israel is split in belief.

I'm learning lots today. Thanks for your patience.

batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:06:59 PM
There are Israelis and that is a nationality like there are Germans and American. I am not Israeli. I am Jewish in culture, heritage and religion.

There are Christians who may be culturally Jewish but when you talk about Jews the implication is not them.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:14:25 PM

There are Israelis and that is a nationality like there are Germans and American. I am not Israeli. I am Jewish in culture, heritage and religion.


Is that the prevailing opinion of Jews? What is the general belief of Jews re: Israel?

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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:17:55 PM

*snort* I know lots of mixed marriages like that at my synagogue.
Heh. I'm sure there is... so we'd fit in well! (I've never been to synagogue. It's something I've wanted to experience. Shocking, I know.)

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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:46:45 PM
I don't have Israeli citizenship therefore I am not Israeli. Being Jewish, I have automatic right of return and I can file for dual citizenship here and there but I have not. I know many people, including relatives, who have.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Being Jewish is not a nationality b/c there is no nation Jew. The Jews were dispersed into the diapora and we have no nation. Israel accepts us, thankfully. So Israel is the nation and Israeli is the nationality. You can be religiously and culturally Jewish but it's not a nationality. When I'm asked my nationality, it's American, 100%. When my Israeli friends and relatives are asked, it's Israeli. And you can be Jewish anywhere in the world where they will accept you. Your religion or culture is Jewish but your nationality is the country where your domicile is. Just like anyone else.

If you want other Jews' opinions, maybe others on the thread can corroborate what I'm saying.

scrappitypea
Executive Director of The Madhouse

PeaNut 195,675
March 2005
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:55:45 PM
I am confused. I wonder if some people use the term 'believe in' referring to simple belief in the existence of Christ, and if others are using the term referring to acceptance of Christ as the Messiah. Do Jews believe that Christ existed?

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