Rabbi Cahn tells about the miracle and mysteries of Hanukkah
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 11/12/2012 by Skybar in NSBR Board
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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 12:58:40 PM
My understanding in study, he could have but there's no cold hard fact. In fact, Judaism isn't really bothered by it.

It's like me asking you, do you believe Mohammed existed? Have you talked about it in Church? In your study group? What relevance does the Koran have to your religion? And in what context do you talk about it? Not as prophesy, ok. But historically?


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Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:09:08 PM

Christians-the Messiah came, some of you may have heard of him?


^^^ Funniest part of this thread!


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Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:11:09 PM

My understanding in study, he could have but there's no cold hard fact. In fact, Judaism isn't really bothered by it.

It's like me asking you, do you believe Mohammed existed? Have you talked about it in Church? In your study group? What relevance does the Koran have to your religion? And in what context do you talk about it? Not as prophesy, ok. But historically?


I'm glad you said this. I've always wondered what bearing Christ has on Jews and their beliefs. I learn all kindsa stuff here!


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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:17:17 PM
I hope you know I'm saying it with no disrespect. From what I've read and learned, he sounds like a wonderful leader and teacher. Just not mine. Also not someone who has any bearing on my religion or my beliefs. When I say that, it isn't to discount anything you cherish, but to clarify that it has no bearing on a religion that was established long before. He didn't change anything for Judaism or have any impact on it except for the people he took with him.

So when you say where does Christ fit in Jewishly, the answer really is, nowhere. It's like asking a creationist where Darwin comes in.


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scrappitypea
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:24:16 PM
I wasn't really asking where Christ 'fits into' Judaism, as I know that he doesn't. I was just asking if Jews acknowledge or deny that Jesus was a man who roamed the earth. Just as there are atheists who believe that he existed, but do not accept him as their savior. Not being snarky, just clarifying.








Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:37:03 PM

I hope you know I'm saying it with no disrespect.


Oh, no offense taken at all! I have just always wondered exactly what another poster asked you: Do Jews believe the Christ came/died? Do they believe he's a myth, etc?

But your answer put it perfectly in my mind - You think about Him (and His life and existence) just about as much as I spend time thinking about Mohammed or Buddah. They're really a non-issue when it comes to my faith. Nothing really to think about or consider. That really put it in perspective.


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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:38:23 PM
He could have. Or not. I don't think it's historically proven, so I don't know. I don't give it terribly much thought.


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twinsmom-fla99
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Posted: 11/13/2012 1:51:58 PM

There is no Jewish nation. So it can't be like being German or American.

There is Jewish culture but that's not a religion.

Once you accept Christ, you can call yourself a Jew, a Christian a carrot or an alien. But by definition if Christ is your savior, you are a Christian. Any Christian or Jew can tell you that.

Messianic Jews are Christians who still follow Jewish rituals.

You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time any more than you can be atheist and Christian or Muslim and Christian. You just can't.

The central tenet of Judaism after you take away all the bells and whistles of ritual and works and everything else is that the messiah has not come and we are still waiting.

The central tenet of Christianity is you have accepted Christ, the messiah who ALREADY CAME, as your savior.

Once you strip it all bare and you take away the arguments and the christmas tree and the religious symbols and the buildings and the denominations, etc. you are left with:

Christian-messiah came
Jew-messiah didn't come

So you pretty much have two belief systems that are diametrically opposed at their core.

You can be a Christian who has Jewish heritage. For example, lets say you come from a long line of Jews who converted during the Spanish Inquisition and no you are all Christians of some kind. You still have heritage of a long line of Jews. But that doesn't make your religion/belief system Jewish. And there is no Jewish 'race' (That was a Nazi belief. Jews can be white, black, Asian, etc) So what you have are Christians who have ancestors who were once Jewish. Who may still practice rituals b/c their ancestors did.

I am a Jew. I can sing Ave Maria. But it doesn't make me Pavoratti.

Short version-
being Jewish is not a nationality
being Jewish is a religion
being Jewish is a cultural identity (bagels, yum)
having Jewish ancestors but having converted to Christianity, does not make you Jewish

BUT-you will always be considered Jewish to the Jewish community and will not have to convert formally back to Judaism if you want to come back to it.

So- this 'Rabbi' Cahn, if he wants to renounce Christ/Christianity and come back to Judaism may do so without a formal conversion (classes/ritual circumcision) if he chooses.

Thank you for allowing me to thoroughly confuse you.
Okay Batya--I'm a visual learner. Would you please put all of this in a venn diagram (or maybe a flowchart?) for me so I will no longer be confused?

Actually, it is a cool explanation, even if I need a little time to digest all of it LOL.

lucyg819
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Posted: 11/13/2012 2:23:54 PM
Just for the record, I'm about as different from Batya as you can get and still be Jewish. Different generations, different coasts (makes a big difference), different branches of Judaism (I believe she's Orthodox, and I'm a member of the pretend-not-to-be-Jewish-most-of-the-time wing of Reform).

And I agree with every single word she's said here. Believe her.


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Skybar
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Posted: 11/13/2012 3:09:13 PM

do you actually think that you can create a new interpretation of the roots of your religion?

no. It isn't new - except maybe to those who don't know it. That really doesn't make it 'new', just previously unknown to them. It's always been in the OT.


Jews-waiting for the messiah

Is there something in the OT that tells them He has not come yet?
Something that came after the OT that tells them that?


If you grow up Jewish and now believe in Christ, you've CONVERTED.

Otherwise, dear, you are STILL CATHOLIC.


What happened to that being Jewish depended on having a Jewish mother? That's been posted on previous threads about being Jewish.

Being Catholic doesn't depend on having a Catholic mother.


by throwing out unrelated points to what is being discussed here? What does what other people think about Christians have to do with your incorrect understanding of what it means to be Jewish?

They aren't unrelated but might seem to be to an atheist.

Many here saying a Christian can't be Jewish are the same who say they think anyone who SAYS they are Christian is a Christian...


Why do you believe what you see on one TV show over what the real, practising people of the Jewish faith are trying to tell you?

ah... why do you think I believe what I saw on 1 tv show (gads!). Just out of the blue? Where did I post that? There are many, many Jewish people who have accepted Christ. They were and still are practicing Jews. Much of what the Jewish people believe and practice IS the root of Christianity. Like the Passover. Cahn does explain Hanukkah and how it bridges the Jews and the Christians. Watching it /listening to him won't make you a Jew or a Christian - but might give you more of an understanding.


Can you show me in scripture where Jesus uses a label to define his religious beliefs? Where Mary does?

really? a label? His 'religious beliefs'? Mary's?


Then you won't mind me continuing to call myself a Christian even though I no longer accept Christ as my personal saviour.

Many on here think that's just fine - unless of course you are a Jew and do it.
BUT, the difference is the Jewish person who accepts Christ DOES NOT deny or reject the God of the Bible. They are accepting all that God promised them thru out the OT.


To listen to the knowledge of how the OT reveals the Christ and how the feasts and prophesies are forerunners of what is to come. Then fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Because of their deep understanding of the OT it's such a blessing to listen to their teaching through the knowledge of Truth.

you would totally enjoy listening to Rabbi Cahn - if you haven't already.


BUT-you will always be considered Jewish to the Jewish community and will not have to convert formally back to Judaism if you want to come back to it.

WAIT... you say 'will always be considered Jewish'?
aren't you 'of the Jewish community' and saying Cahn can't be Jewish and a Christian?




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Posted: 11/13/2012 3:58:02 PM
Here's what I was taught in its most simplistic form:

Roses are red.
Violets are Bluish
If it weren't for Jesus
we'd both be Jewish.

Now here is what I know, as a Jew: You cannot be a Jewish Christian; likewise, you cannot be a Christian Jew. There is no middle ground there. No gray area. You're either Jewish or Christian. This is fact. A Christian who was born to a Jewish mother might call themselves Jewish, but that is a fallacy. It's impossible to be both. There are books written on this subject. While I have great respect for all faiths and all beliefs, I am a Jew. I'm not a Buddhist; nor am I am a Catholic. I'm neither Pagan nor athiest. I am a Jew, period. If I choose to believe that Jesus Christ is my savior then I will be a Christian who used to be Jewish, but is no longer Jewish, because I have converted to Christianity. I could put it to poetic dance, but that won't stop others from trying to make kosher ham.

As for this

I was taught that Jesus was a Jew. Historically, whether he is or is not the Messiah, he is still a Jew. Is that a universal belief?


I was raised to believe that Jesus was a Jew, a teacher and a good person, but just a human being and not the son of G-d. Now, just because I believe that doesn't make me right. But it does make me Jewish. I was raised w/great respect for all religions and non-religious people, too. That is why I would never presume to tell someone of another religion what their religion teaches!


_____________________________________________________

I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?

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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:29:58 PM

Then you won't mind me continuing to call myself a Christian even though I no longer accept Christ as my personal saviour.

Many on here think that's just fine - unless of course you are a Jew and do it.
Many?!? Name one. One person here that would say I am a Christian even though I don't believe in Christ. One.

I'll wait.


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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:42:01 PM

Just for the record, I'm about as different from Batya as you can be and still be Jewish. Different generations, different coasts (makes a big difference), different branches of Judaism (I believe she's Orthodox, and I'm a member of the pretend-not-to-be-Jewish-most-of-the-time wing of Reform).




This will confuse Skybar even further Lucy

Skybar -


He says that Hanukkah is prophecy in the OT (Daniel) but not celebrated until the NT. ?? Feast of Dedication. In John 10. who knew?

He gives an overview of Maccabees (history) and the rededication of the Temple.

That's the best explanation of Hanukkah I've ever heard - not that I've heard much about it.



I would suggest that you research the orgins of the " Festival of Light"(Hanukkah) a bit further being that you haven't heard much about it, except for what you have wrongly interpreted here.

Just because it was mentioned in the New Testament doesn't mean it wasn't celebrated before that. It just happened to be going on when Jesus entered the temple at that particular time.
The Hanukkah dates back to about two centuries before Christianity when the temple was re-built after the war with the Syrian king who tried to make the Jews worship a statue of a Greek God which they refused to do so.

I'm not Jewish, I'm a Christian BTW !

All Christians descend from Jews Skybar. Some of them decided to follow Jesus when he proclaimed he was the Messiah,so became the birth of Christianity. That doesn't make you, me or any other Christian right. it's just a different set of beliefs.

Some of your interpretations of Christianity or any other faith for that matter does boggle my mind at time though !!

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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:44:13 PM
Believing in Jesus is different from believe that he is the messiah. A fundamental Jewish belief is that the messiah has not yet come. Messianic Judaism is not accepted by the Jewish establishment. My mother is a messianic Jew.
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lucyg819
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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:44:21 PM

Many here saying a Christian can't be Jewish are the same who say they think anyone who SAYS they are Christian is a Christian...

I plead guilty. But you know, it's those old apples and oranges.

If they say they're Christian, I will take them at their word. If I subsequently see them praying to Mecca, I will assume they are no longer Christian. Based on their own actions, not because their Christianity doesn't meet your standards.

Same thing for the Jews who accept Christ. If they tell me they're Jews, I will take them at their word. If they then show me that they are believers in Jesus, I will know they are no longer Jews. It doesn't matter what they say or what you say. People who believe in Christ are Christians. Not Jews.


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dottyscrapper
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Posted: 11/13/2012 4:59:54 PM

If they say they're Christian, I will take them at their word. If I subsequently see them praying to Mecca, I will assume they are no longer Christian. Based on their own actions, not because their Christianity doesn't meet your standards.


I like your level of observation Lucy

I don't think that my level of Christianity would ever meet Skybar's standards or a few others on this board for that matter, not in a million years

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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:18:38 PM
I think I'm asking an obvious question, but I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists. So they are basically saying that they are culturally Jewish, but do not believe in G*d...is this correct?






peano
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Posted: 11/13/2012 5:57:58 PM

I think I'm asking an obvious question, but I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists. So they are basically saying that they are culturally Jewish, but do not believe in G*d...is this correct?



My father always said he is an agnostic, but he definitely always considered himself Jewish. I don't know that he even thinks about it as being "culturally" Jewish.

What I've always loved about being a Jew (at least my experience coming from an extremely small reform Jewish community in Arkansas) is that we always had the freedom to question, learn and explore.


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Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:14:53 PM

I think I'm asking an obvious question, but I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists. So they are basically saying that they are culturally Jewish, but do not believe in G*d...is this correct?


I also know Jews of this sort. I think they are given room to question or experience lack of belief, as the previous poster suggested, so their athiesm is "tolerated" by the liberal Jewish community. Their religion isn't really called into question unless it is replaced by another belief system such as Christianity, Islam, etc. Then, we call it conversion.

ETA, I don't care for the word "tolerated," but I can't think of a word to replace it.



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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:20:11 PM
Lucy, I'm Conservative, not Orthodox.

Skybar is Catholic. B/c you are what you were even if you became something new. That's what she said!


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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:24:07 PM

Skybar is Catholic ??? No, you're mistaking her with another Pea.



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irishscrappermom8
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:49:56 PM
I always thought Skybar was a bit more of the evangelical, holler roller, fire and brimstone kind of Christian.

I am Catholic, went to Catholic school, am Irish, blah, blah, blah and we never got all bat shit crazy like her. I remember learning a great deal about the Jewish faith and how many of the traditions of Christians came from Jewish rituals. I found it all quite fascinating.

I also think it's supremely arrogant to believe that your way is the only way. If Skybar wants to think that fine, but she needs keep silent about others religions or at least be respectful, which she unfortunately has not learned in all her years in pea land.





peano
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:52:20 PM

Skybar is Catholic ??? No, you're mistaking her with another Pea.


Skybar cannot be Catholic, because everyone knows that Catholics aren't Christian.


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scrappower
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Posted: 11/13/2012 6:53:18 PM
What batya is saying is that Skybar was raised catholic as a child, so since skybar says once a Jew, always a Jew, batya is saying the same about her being catholic.



Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/13/2012 7:00:09 PM

What batya is saying is that Skybar was raised catholic as a child, so since skybar says once a Jew, always a Jew, batya is saying the same about her being catholic.


Thank you. That went right over my head. And yes, it's a great comparison too.



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lucyg819
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Posted: 11/13/2012 7:38:36 PM

Lucy, I'm Conservative, not Orthodox.

oops, sorry, Conservative!


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Posted: 11/13/2012 7:47:39 PM
I'm coming to this late but had to comment


So- this 'Rabbi' Cahn, if he wants to renounce Christ/Christianity and come back to Judaism may do so without a formal conversion (classes/ritual circumcision) if he chooses.


This made me *SNORT*. He's probably already had the ritual circumcision if he was born Jewish.



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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:04:28 PM
And btw, just to confuse people a little more---Chanukah is a minor holiday. Not one of our most important holidays at all.



batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:25:56 PM
Right, Shosh. Which is why it's part of the apocrypha and it isn't in a canonized text like the torah (the five books), neviim (Prophets-Joshua, Kings...) or Kethuvim (Writings, Ruth, Song of Songs, etc). It's simply a story that isn't of primary importance.



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Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:42:33 PM


And btw, just to confuse people a little more---Chanukah is a minor holiday. Not one of our most important holidays at all.


Right, Shosh. Which is why it's part of the apocrypha and it isn't in a canonized text like the torah (the five books), neviim (Prophets-Joshua, Kings...) or Kethuvim (Writings, Ruth, Song of Songs, etc). It's simply a story that isn't of primary importance.


Wow. Now THAT is news to me! I've always thought Chanukah is to Jews as Christmas is to Christians. Now, I'm tucking my tail and off to study my Old Testament.


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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:47:44 PM
Chanukah only became big b/c Christmas as so big culturally. B/c it was the same time of year it was made into something bigger than it is. Religiously, it's nothing much at all. In fact, it's not even my favorite fun Jewish holiday. Purim is.

Our most holy day of the year is Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Then Rosh Hashanah 10 days prior, our New Year (we also use a lunar calendar). Then I'd say Passover is pretty big.


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batya
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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:49:03 PM

He's probably already had the ritual circumcision if he was born Jewish.


RIght. But even circumcised men who want to convert to Judaism have to have a symbolic bit of blood drawn from the site.


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Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/13/2012 8:57:04 PM

Chanukah only became big b/c Christmas as so big culturally. B/c it was the same time of year it was made into something bigger than it is. Religiously, it's nothing much at all. In fact, it's not even my favorite fun Jewish holiday. Purim is.


Wait. So Jews suffer from the commercialization of Chanukah?? Heeee heeee!
And here we Christians thought we were the ones being persecuted...


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irishscrappermom8
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Posted: 11/13/2012 9:12:49 PM
I went to college in update NY and there were a lot of Jewish girls on my floor that I got to know the first two years I lived in the dorms. I remember one girl that was joking that the 8 days of presents of Hanukkah was to compete with Christmas. She said when she was little it was hard to explain to Jewish kids why others got lots of presents and she and the other Jewish kids didn't.

It was so interesting to learn things about others religions. That year we had a variety of Christian denominations, Jews, an atheist, a Wiccan, a Muslim, Bhuddist, Greek Orthodox, and Zoroastrian. It was very cool!





Simply_Lovely
AncestralPea

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Posted: 11/13/2012 9:17:02 PM

I think I'm asking an obvious question, but I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists. So they are basically saying that they are culturally Jewish, but do not believe in G*d...is this correct?


Correct. My DH is Jewish, simply due to being born to a mother who is Jewish. He will identify himself as Russian-American Jew who is an atheist. So that means that he will light the menorah during Hanukkah and then eat a bacon cheeseburger on a Friday night. So he appreciates the tradition of his people, but does not believe in God, Jesus, or any other such entity. Thankfully, he is not obnoxiously atheist and tolerates my beliefs quietly.




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biochemipea
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Posted: 11/13/2012 9:24:46 PM


by throwing out unrelated points to what is being discussed here? What does what other people think about Christians have to do with your incorrect understanding of what it means to be Jewish?


They aren't unrelated but might seem to be to an atheist.
And, there you go again! How twee of you. BTW, it has nothing to do with being an atheist. But probably a lot to do with you not really wanting to look for understanding, but rather just wanting to back up what you already believe.






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mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea

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Posted: 11/14/2012 12:15:08 AM

Ight. But even circumcised men who want to convert to Judaism have to have a symbolic bit of blood drawn from the site.


Though I rarely disagree with Batya, especially when it comes to issues related to Judaism, I do think I need to clarify the need to draw a symbolic bit of blood is usually only for Orthodox or Conservative Jews. Some Reform Jews also require that but not all (my ds was adopted at birth and was circumcised in the hospital. When I asked about conversion, one Reform Rabbi told me that she would need to draw a bit of blood. The other Reform Rabbi (the Temple we ended up joining) said he was my son, so he was Jewish, no need for a conversion, and I know they do not take blood when men become a "Jew By Choice"



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/14/2012 2:10:14 AM

Is there something in the OT that tells them He has not come yet?
Something that came after the OT that tells them that?


Jesus didn't meet the requirements as messiah as Hashem laid them out in Torah.

You refer to the OT as it is what the Jews believe. The OT is not the Torah -- far from it. I would suggest that you learn Hebrew and actually read the Torah in its original form; you'll notice a huge difference right from the start.

Hashem said very specifically the Torah was the be all, end all and that no other books would follow.

Jews who break covenant with Hashem are not cast out in the World to Come; the just get a smaller share than observant Jews. Hashem gave rules for Gentiles to follow; they are in World to Come as well. Gentiles have to follow seven laws as given to Noah, while Jews have to follow over 600. Messainic Jews are still Jews if they were born Jewish; they have a place in World to Come but again, not as much as observant Jews -- they are on par with Gentiles.

World to Come is not the Christian version of Heaven or afterlife either. It is on this world, in this life, and it only happens when certain conditions are met.

This is why non-secular Jews are pro-life. Death is not to be celebrated or considered "the better way." Jews must respect all religions that believe in Hashem. And yes, that includes Islam.

The downside? We don't recruit Gentiles. We only recruit among each other to bring forth the Messiah, and any baby born to a Jewish mother has a chance to be the Messiah.

Being observant doesn't mean being Chasidic either. Jews differ in their religious views. Some even think the Messiah was a rabbi born in Brooklyn and died about ten years ago, and that we are living in the Messianic Age. I differ with that opinion, as probably most Jewish Peas would disagree with my explanations because they are not in the same sect of Judaism as me, which appeals to Jews who grew up very, very secular like Matisyahu or Alex Clare. There even Jews who are not secular and very, very Orthodox who don't believe Israel shouldn't exist as a country.

In the end, it doesn't matter anyway because there is no "right" way of Judaism. You either believe the Torah is Hashem's word, or you do not. I don't intend for that statement to be personally mean to Christians, but that's the deal and in order to be Christian, you have to reject that.

Skybar
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Posted: 11/14/2012 4:06:42 AM

That doesn't make you, me or any other Christian right. it's just a different set of beliefs.

right about what?


I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists.

you're saying they're both? then what makes them Jews?


My father always said he is an agnostic, but he definitely always considered himself Jewish.

oops, another one.


Skybar is Catholic. B/c you are what you were even if you became something new. That's what she said!

I wasn't born Catholic - or Christian.

when did you convert to Judaism?


My DH is Jewish, simply due to being born to a mother who is Jewish. He will identify himself as Russian-American Jew who is an atheist.

another Jewish person who doesn't believe in God.


Messainic Jews are still Jews if they were born Jewish;

as noted on this thread - not everyone thinks so


The OT is not the Torah -- far from it.

I know - but the Torah is in the OT. at least vs being in the NT (tho parts of it are in the NT).


Hashem said very specifically the Torah was the be all, end all and that no other books would follow.

does that mean you don't read / believe in the books of the prophets and other writings?





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"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

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GrinningCat
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Posted: 11/14/2012 6:13:54 AM
Skybar,

If you are really so obtuse and ignorant that you cannot understand that your "brilliant" TV description of Judaism is wrong and has been repeatedly refudiated by a wide variety of Jews here, then there's nothing more to say. You obviously consider yourself some kind of omnipotent, omniscient god like person, because you claim to know everything and are right about everything, even when faced with factual information that show your assertions to be wrong.

And it happens repeatedly.

It blows my mind that you cannot, under any circumstance, say that you were misinformed and thank you for the correct information. Admit your knowledge is erroneous, thank all the wonderful people here who took the time to give you correct information and consider yourself schooled.


WannaPea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 6:17:19 AM

I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists.


you're saying they're both? then what makes them Jews?
You really either cannot grasp the subject matter or you are being willfully ignorant.

Either case is a good reason to just stop your nonsense right now.


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Kelpea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 6:31:11 AM

I always thought Skybar was a bit more of the evangelical, holler roller, fire and brimstone kind of Christian.

I am Catholic, went to Catholic school, am Irish, blah, blah, blah and we never got all bat shit crazy like her


A slight hijack, but there is a large, growing contingency of "Charismatic Catholics" which would incorporate the more modern, evangelical beliefs.



mlamarre
PeaFixture

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Posted: 11/14/2012 7:08:08 AM
Skybar I need your help on spreading the word for DR Jill Stein for 2016. It's about time we have a woman president.
Sorry for hijacking the thread but we need to focus on the war on women and Skybar needs a new hobby


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peano
Lead With Love

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Posted: 11/14/2012 7:14:11 AM

Wait. So Jews suffer from the commercialization of Chanukah?? Heeee heeee!


Yes! I for one am sick and tired of the way they're all trying to take the Judah Maccabee out of Chanukah.



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Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/14/2012 7:25:59 AM




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


you're saying they're both? then what makes them Jews?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My father always said he is an agnostic, but he definitely always considered himself Jewish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


oops, another one.



I'll say it again. Lack of belief in one religion is not the same as conversion to a second religion.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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moveablefeast
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Posted: 11/14/2012 7:40:31 AM

The central tenet of Judaism after you take away all the bells and whistles of ritual and works and everything else is that the messiah has not come and we are still waiting.

The central tenet of Christianity is you have accepted Christ, the messiah who ALREADY CAME, as your savior.

Once you strip it all bare and you take away the arguments and the christmas tree and the religious symbols and the buildings and the denominations, etc. you are left with:

Christian-messiah came
Jew-messiah didn't come


I have previously argued in favor of Messianic Judaism but have become a lot less certain about that over the last couple of years. So I am asking this question from the perspective of a Christian whose walk has really been enriched by - how to say it? - followers of Jesus with a Jewish heritage and a Jewish perspective on their faith in Jesus? - but like I said, I have a lot of new questions about Messianic Judaism that I don't have answers for yet.

Anyway. Background.

My question is this - if a central tenet of Judaism is that the Messiah has not come, what happens to Judaism when the Messiah does come? What does that look like?

Because I know how, for example, an orthodox Christian would answer that question, but I don't know how an observant Jew would answer that question. And I am curious.

katybee8
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Posted: 11/14/2012 7:52:02 AM
DH had a conversation with some folks from Jews for Jesus when he was at college at University of Chicago.

Jews for Jesus: We're Jews for Jesus

DH: Isn't that a bit like pigs for bacon?

JFJ: But Jesus loves us!

DH: I love bacon!

I just don't see why people have to put some sort of Christian spin on any part of Judaism.

This sort of misunderstanding and confusion about people and their religions and motives is why we have so many wars in the first place. UGH!

doesitmatter?
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Posted: 11/14/2012 8:48:03 AM
Thank you to our Jewish peas who have explained more about your faith. As a Christian, I have been curious about a lot of it- which of your theology is similar or different to Christianity. We have studied Judaism and also Messianic Jews - but naturally from a Christian perspective, so I found it helpful to hear it from your perspective. Thank you for explaining.


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Simply_Lovely
AncestralPea

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Posted: 11/14/2012 9:06:43 AM

My DH is Jewish, simply due to being born to a mother who is Jewish. He will identify himself as Russian-American Jew who is an atheist.

another Jewish person who doesn't believe in God.


Skybar - please refrain from using my comments to support ANYTHING you have to say.

And DH is Jewish by ethnicity. I know this contradicts Batya, but that's what it is. He is an Ashkenazi Jew and considers his ethnicity to be "Jewish." Ashkenazi Jews are ethnoreligious group who trace their origins to the Levant in South Western Asia, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north probably during the early Middle Age But in this day and age it's not just about cultural customs, there are genetics involved too. So to DH being Jewish is purely ethnical but has zero to do with religion.

ETA -- I meant Ashkenazi not Sephardic!! I am a horrible wife!




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guzismom
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 11/14/2012 9:18:21 AM
It is always incredible to me how narrowly the OP defines "Christianity" and how broadly she defines Judaism.

I'm a cradle Catholic but I'm sure in the OP's mind not a Christian.

Oh well...pass the bagels!


Marilyn (now in New Mexico!!)
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