Rabbi Cahn tells about the miracle and mysteries of Hanukkah

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Posted 11/12/2012 by Skybar in NSBR Board
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MergeLeft
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Posted: 11/14/2012 9:27:05 AM
I know it's not quite the same thing as those who identify as culturally Jewish, but to help clarify that for some, you only need to look around at all the people who identify as agnostic or atheist or "nothing" and yet are, for all intents and purposes, culturally Christian. We celebrate Christmas and Easter, and our worldview and ideas about right and wrong tend to be shaped by some Christian teachings because our society remains predominanty Christian, and frankly, even if we're not believers now, chances are we come from a long line of Christian believers.

We don't stand out here as we're still part of the mainstream culture, but if I moved to, say, Saudi Arabia, I might be considered an atheist/agnostic who identifies culturally as Christian, based on the holidays I celebrate and the fact that I might have a different world view and ideas about right and wrong than my mainstream Muslim neighbors. I could also point back in my family tree to having come from a long line of Christians regardless of my personal belief system today.

The point is that, no matter how much some might wish it otherwise, cultural identification couched in religious terms is valid and pervasive. Otherwise why does the woman who owns the nail salon I go to simultaneously wear a cross around her neck and have a Buddha statue in the corner, complete with offerings of fruit? Why did early Christians bring so many of their pagan beliefs and rituals with them into their new religion? Religion is far more than belief; it is an ingrained part of our culture that lingers even when belief dies away.



Fraidyscrapper
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Posted: 11/14/2012 10:26:42 AM
Merge - thank you. That is exactly what I was thinking of - people who are not believers but celebrate Christmas. Thanks!


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy

lucyg819
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Posted: 11/14/2012 10:33:08 AM

Skybar I need your help on spreading the word for DR Jill Stein for 2016. It's about time we have a woman president.
Sorry for hijacking the thread but we need to focus on the war on women and Skybar needs a new hobby

I shouldn't, but ... LOL.


LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



lucyg819
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Posted: 11/14/2012 10:47:10 AM
Merge, that's freakin' brilliant.


LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



Sharna_G
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Posted: 11/14/2012 11:41:18 AM

Yes! I for one am sick and tired of the way they're all trying to take the Judah Maccabee out of Chanukah.

Can NOT stop laughing!!!


~~Sharna
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desertpea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 1:02:27 PM
Look, just because someone asks questions about my faith doesn't mean I am going to beat them over the head for it.


as noted on this thread - not everyone thinks so


As I said in my post, there are different sects of Judaism with different beliefs and opinions. Jews debate each other all the time. You can ask one question and get five different answers. It is one of the reasons why a lot of people are turned off by Judaism.

Even such basic things like how to conduct a Passover Seder differs between movements and individuals. There is a major movement who thinks the Torah is not the word of Hashem but man's interpretation of it. They think they are fulfilling Hashem's covenant, but I do not. That doesn't make them less Jewish. Hashem is the judge.



The OT is not the Torah -- far from it.



I know - but the Torah is in the OT. at least vs being in the NT (tho parts of it are in the NT).



Christians incorporating whatever they want from Judaism into their own religion via a bunch of people in Constantinople or Henry VIII's little Bible council doesn't bother me. You are Gentile, and I have to respect your religion regardless.



Hashem said very specifically the Torah was the be all, end all and that no other books would follow.



does that mean you don't read / believe in the books of the prophets and other writings?



Reading is not belief. Again, you either believe the Torah is Hashem's word or you don't. It doesn't matter in the end; we all have a place in the World to Come. Instead, be happy that many Jews are rejecting their secular upbringing and rediscovering Judaism.

joyce.k.b.
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Posted: 11/14/2012 1:28:09 PM

And DH is Jewish by ethnicity. I know this contradicts Batya, but that's what it is. He is a Sephardic Jew and considers his ethnicity to be "Jewish." A Sephardi Jew is a Jew descended from, OR who follows the customs and traditions followed by, Jews who lived in the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and modern Spain), before their expulsion in the late 15th century. But in this day and age it's not just about cultural customs, there are genetics involved too. So to DH being Jewish is purely ethnical but has zero to do with religion.


Is their much difference culturally between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews? And is it disparaging to say Jew vs. Jewish person?

I find this a fascinating discussion. Thank you to the Jewish peas for answering questions








Carey Ayn
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Posted: 11/14/2012 1:33:38 PM
I shouldn't even try, but I'm going to jump in and reiterate what Merge said.

I grew up Catholic/Christian. I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I no longer accept the tenants of the faith.

However, I will always have a connection to the church. I still secularly celebrate Christmas and Easter with my family. When my grandmother passed away last week, I went to her Catholic funeral. When my nephew gets ordained in a few years, I will likely fly out to DC to attend it.

Why? Because it is part of my heritage. It is part of my family life. It is part of what makes me who I am today.

I am not a practicing Catholic, and I would not identify myself that way, but when pressed, I would indentify myself as being a Catholic by tradition. I can still sing the songs, say the prayers, respect the beauty of the mass and sacraments and honor my family members who are sill active in the church. None of those things makes me a Catholic. Pretending to believe what the church believes does not make me a Catholic (but I could get away with it if I so choose). Believing the core tenets of the faith makes me a Catholic.

I am simply an agnostic/deist who grew up catholic and still embraces some of the traditions.



Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/14/2012 1:33:49 PM

Is their much difference culturally between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews? And is it disparaging to say Jew vs. Jewish person?


Sephardic, think Middle Eastern, southern European, African

Ashkenazi, think, Northern European into Russia

Jew or Jewish, there's nothing disparaging about the name.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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It makes the peas taste funny, But it keeps them on the knife.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 1:49:09 PM
Sephardic has some extremely cool traditions. Me so jelly.

I appreciate the Catholic comparisons, but it is still way different that Judaism. You aren't born a Catholic because your mother is Catholic. Jewish is by birth, so even if you are an extreme atheist, you can be granted Israel citizenship as long as you were born to a Jewish mother.

You can reject all Judaism and still be a Jew. You are secular, and no matter how much Jews argue about it among themselves, only Hashem can judge who gets what in World to Come, which again is something here on this earth and not the afterlife.

Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 11/14/2012 2:53:14 PM

Is their much difference culturally between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews? And is it disparaging to say Jew vs. Jewish person?


They just came from different places in the world. MsLiz is correct.
And I edited my post above, my DH is Ashkenazi, not Sephardic, I don't know why I mixed those two up....ugh.




Meow!

kshenkar
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Posted: 11/14/2012 3:07:42 PM
Such an interesting conversation--aside from the "you must not be reading the OT correctly" comment Got to love that when so many people read translations!

I think there are volumes upon volumes debating if Judaism is a belief, ethnicity, etc. I'm Orthodox and identify religiously more than culturally, but I definitely know people who identify strongly as Jewish but don't regularly observe. Interesting discussion.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 3:20:52 PM
It happens. Try to keep all the different sects of Judaism straight -- it is challenging compared to the cultural origin differences..

desertpea
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Posted: 11/14/2012 5:04:29 PM
Kshenkar: if you don't mind me asking, what kind of orthodox are you?

Skybar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 5:15:39 AM

your "brilliant" TV description of Judaism is wrong and has been repeatedly refudiated by a wide variety of Jews here

evidently you haven't read all of the posts here. As for the rest of your post, I could say the say about you - and many other peas here.





"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

Skybar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 5:22:35 AM

My DH is Jewish, simply due to being born to a mother who is Jewish. He will identify himself as Russian-American Jew who is an atheist.

another Jewish person who doesn't believe in God.



Skybar - please refrain from using my comments to support ANYTHING you have to say.

And DH is Jewish by ethnicity. I know this contradicts Batya, but that's what it is.

you posted it here.




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

Skybar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 6:22:52 AM

I wonder if some people use the term 'believe in' referring to simple belief in the existence of Christ, and if others are using the term referring to acceptance of Christ as the Messiah.

they surely do. That's what I did the first 27 yrs of my life - as did those in my family and friends / other Christians I know. What we humans today consider 'believing' is not what the Bible means by it. The Bible means trusting with your whole being - your total life. Not just now and again when convenient or when you agree with Him. He IS first in your life - over your friends, your family, your spouse, your kids, your prev way of life. It's a complete change of your heart - from things of this world to Him.


It is always incredible to me how narrowly the OP defines "Christianity"

thank you - How does God define it in His Word? " Narrow is the way..."


Hashem said very specifically the Torah was the be all, end all and that no other books would follow.



does that mean you don't read / believe in the books of the prophets and other writings?



Reading is not belief. Again, you either believe the Torah is Hashem's word or you don't.

I totally understand that 'reading isn't belief'. My question on it comes from my reading up on the requirements for the Jewish Messiah. What I'm reading lists requirements coming from books in the OT other than the Torah. Wouldn't requirements coming from any of those other books involve more than just reading of them?

While I'm asking these questions, I have another. Who determined which verses make up these requirements?

I haven't yet had time to look up all of the verses to read more than what is listed. I've looked up one and plan to look up the others.

Another question - do all of the divisions of Judaism go by the same list of requirements for the Messiah? (if not I'll need to look up more than 1 list)


You aren't born a Catholic because your mother is Catholic. Jewish is by birth, so even if you are an extreme atheist, you can be granted Israel citizenship as long as you were born to a Jewish mother.

I agree and I also posted that earlier in this thread. They can't be compared to each other.

It's the same with Christianity, no one is physically born a Christian. That takes being born again (a separate spiritual birth).

So one can be Jewish without believing in the God of the Bible?





"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/15/2012 8:39:55 AM


"Hashem said very specifically the Torah was the be all, end all and that no other books would follow."

does that mean you don't read / believe in the books of the prophets and other writings?


It's my understanding that Judaism teaches that the Torah is the word of G-d, while other writings are inspired by G-d. There is also an oral Torah, which was finally written down after existing for centuries, that is different from the written Torah that is in our bible. I think it's also considered a Holy book (being more than inspired,) but I could be wrong.

When you ask "do we believe in" the other books, I'm not sure how to answer. There's much to learn from them, but I'm not sure what you mean by "believe in." I've never met a Jew who believes in a literal interpretation of any of our books.


My question on it comes from my reading up on the requirements for the Jewish Messiah. What I'm reading lists requirements coming from books in the OT other than the Torah. Wouldn't requirements coming from any of those other books involve more than just reading of them? While I'm asking these questions, I have another. Who determined which verses make up these requirements?
Judaism is growing, changing, evolving. It doesn't end with the Torah. We have centuries of rabbinic interpretations and teachings since that time that continue to influence it. I don't know that any one person or one body of thought "made up these requirements." Thought inspires teaching which inspires thought which inspires teaching.



Another question - do all of the divisions of Judaism go by the same list of requirements for the Messiah? (if not I'll need to look up more than 1 list)
Jews of any branch can look to all the teachings. This rabbi said this, and another rabbi said that, and someone else said the other thing but his name has been lost to the ages. If there's ever a time when there's actually peace on Earth, we may pay attention to those lists you mentioned, but until then, they don't really matter to most of us in our everyday lives.


You aren't born a Catholic because your mother is Catholic. Jewish is by birth, so even if you are an extreme atheist, you can be granted Israel citizenship as long as you were born to a Jewish mother. So one can be Jewish without believing in the God of the Bible?

If one is baptized Catholic and later converts to another religion, she can return to Catholicism without a formal conversion at a later time if she so chooses. Hence, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic."

Likewise, if one is born to a Jewish parent, and later converts to another religion, she can return to Judaism without a formal conversion at a later time if she so chooses.

Atheism is not a religion. It's defined by the absence of religion. Just as black is not a color but rather the absence of color. Defined by what it is not. So in the case of an atheist Jew, there is no conversion to another religion. The name Jew still holds.

In contrast, your Jonathon Cahn has converted to Christianity. He worships in a way that is not consistant with any Jewish teaching (Jesus) and is consistant with Christian teaching (Jesus.) Surely you can see that? He has converted. At a later time, if he so chooses, he can return to Judaism without a formal conversion. But for the present moment, he is a Christian.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I eat my peas with honey. I've done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny, But it keeps them on the knife.



kshenkar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 9:34:46 AM


Kshenkar: if you don't mind me asking, what kind of orthodox are you?




Not at all. If I had to pick a label, I'd say Modern Orthodox machmir/Dati Leumi. Not sure if that means anything to you I keep fully kosher in and out of the house, keep Shabbos, wear skirts only, cover my hair with a wig, don't own a TV, etc. None of those things define my observance but they can paint a picture for you if the above terms don't



PeaCeaRyder
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Posted: 11/15/2012 10:01:20 AM

Instead, be happy that many Jews are rejecting their secular upbringing and rediscovering Judaism.
That's interesting.



"It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God...and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln

Proclamation of a National Fast-Day, March 30, 1863.
Quoted in Marion Mills Miller, ed., Life and Works of Abraham Lincoln, Centenary Edition, In Nine Volumes: Volume VI (New York: The Current Literature Publishing Co., 1907), p. 156.

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." - George Orwell

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/15/2012 10:20:50 AM

You can ask one question and get five different answers. It is one of the reasons why a lot of people are turned off by Judaism


And it is one of the big reasons that I am "turned on" to Judaism. It is a religion that encourages thought and intellectual debate. It is no wonder that so man Jews have been academically successful---the very fabric of our religion encourages us to read and analyze and debate.

My understanding is that the meaning of the word "Israel" is "one who wrestles with G-d".

And to add to the confusion, while I agree Jews believe the Messiah has not come, waiting for the Messiah is not our primary occupation. We are much more focused on what we do right here right now in our lives, trying to behave with integrity and pursue justice.



Skybar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 1:48:57 PM

I've never met a Jew who believes in a literal interpretation of any of our books.

Do Jews not believe in a literal interpretation of the verses that support the requirements for the Messiah?

thank you for all of your replies.


If one is baptized Catholic and later converts to another religion, she can return to Catholicism without a formal conversion at a later time if she so chooses. Hence, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic."

That's still different than it being a birthright. I can't think of any 'religion' that doesn't allow one back in w/o jumping thru hoops. They are usually just glad to have you back and many have never taken you off of their 'count' of followers anyway. The CC will continue to consider one C even if they don't believe in the basic teachings of the CC.

Atheism is a religion - and considered one by our SC. Everyone has a god - whether they are their own god, or their work is or money is or sex or drinking or something else of this world is.




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

Mimima
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Posted: 11/15/2012 2:03:26 PM

Kshenkar: if you don't mind me asking, what kind of orthodox are you?



Not at all. If I had to pick a label, I'd say Modern Orthodox machmir/Dati Leumi.


Would someone explain the kinds of Orthodox Jewish beliefs? I didn't realize there were sects within Jewish Orthodoxy.
Thanks ever so kindly


~Mimi
"She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain." - Louisa May Alcott

lucyg819
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Posted: 11/15/2012 2:03:42 PM
Atheism is not a religion and if you want me to believe the Supreme Court says it is, you are going to need to provide direct quotations from published SC opinions. Please.

Thank you to all the "better" Jews than me, for reminding me of all the reasons I am happy to be Jewish even if I don't pay much attention to it.


LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



batya
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Posted: 11/15/2012 2:22:42 PM
I think we have educated the masses and when there is insistence that A-The-Ism (Belief in NO god) is a religion, it might be time to disengage, if only in kindness.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Ms. Liz
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Posted: 11/15/2012 2:32:32 PM

I've never met a Jew who believes in a literal interpretation of any of our books.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do Jews not believe in a literal interpretation of the verses that support the requirements for the Messiah?


Some do and some don't. Our Bible is filled with allegory, metaphor, anthropomorphism, myth, history, law, stories that scare us and inspire us into doing what is right. And a juicy hot love poem too. Not all of it is meant to be taken literally, but with interpretation we find universal Truths in the stuff that may not be literally true. What is to be taken as literal truth? That's where Jews rely on our rabbis. And rabbis love to argue about that sort of thing.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I eat my peas with honey. I've done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny, But it keeps them on the knife.



kshenkar
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Posted: 11/15/2012 2:52:07 PM


Would someone explain the kinds of Orthodox Jewish beliefs? I didn't realize there were sects within Jewish Orthodoxy.
Thanks ever so kindly




They aren't necessarily organized sects, but different communities/sets of values that people follow. There's a saying that there are "70 faces to the Torah," meaning that people can follow the same beliefs and be under the same umbrella, but express and live those beliefs in different ways. The same values, different expressions, if you will I keep the same 613 mitzvot as a Satmar woman in Israel, but the day to day fabric of our lives, while having a lot in common, will still be pretty different.

Not sure if I just made it more confusing! Ha!



biochemipea
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Posted: 11/15/2012 3:01:42 PM

Atheism is a religion
It is kind of funny that you believe that atheism is a religion but that your version of Christianity is not a religion.






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WannaPea
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Posted: 11/15/2012 3:04:35 PM

Atheism is a religion - and considered one by our SC. Everyone has a god - whether they are their own god, or their work is or money is or sex or drinking or something else of this world is.
You mean in the way some people play god on a message board, by doling out the correct information about what is, and what isn't, to the unwashed, dirty, filthy masses that do not include you and your special brand of omniscience? Your ego is unfathomable.



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dynalady
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Posted: 11/15/2012 3:05:15 PM
Thank you to the Jewish peas. This has been a very informative thread.

Atheism is not a religion.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




peano
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Posted: 11/15/2012 3:12:44 PM

You can ask one question and get five different answers. It is one of the reasons why a lot of people are turned off by Judaism


And it is one of the big reasons that I am "turned on" to Judaism. It is a religion that encourages thought and intellectual debate. It is no wonder that so man Jews have been academically successful---the very fabric of our religion encourages us to read and analyze and debate.


Me too, mamashosh. I remember being shocked as a child when I learned that the Catholic Church had a list of banned books (apparently this practice stopped in the mid-1960s)


And to add to the confusion, while I agree Jews believe the Messiah has not come, waiting for the Messiah is not our primary occupation. We are much more focused on what we do right here right now in our lives, trying to behave with integrity and pursue justice.


Yes. I've watched this thread with interest because of the Christian lens posters are viewing Judaism through and their focus on the afterlife, which is a major component of Christianity. You said it perfectly.


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Canon 7D
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
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Posted: 11/15/2012 3:43:27 PM

Chanukah only became big b/c Christmas as so big culturally. B/c it was the same time of year it was made into something bigger than it is. Religiously, it's nothing much at all. In fact, it's not even my favorite fun Jewish holiday. Purim is.


Mine too Batya....in Israel Chanukah is not a gift giving occasion. Rosh Hashanah is though.


and I know they do not take blood when men become a "Jew By Choice"


Not so, at least not in all synagogues. I just had a male friend convert (Reform) and he had to undergo circumcision.


I am not Israeli. I am Jewish in culture, heritage and religion.


And I am an Israeli citizen who is not Jewish.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
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Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/15/2012 3:51:51 PM

I know a lot of Jews who identify as Atheists.


you're saying they're both? then what makes them Jews?




70% of Israeli Jews claim to be secular. They are Jewish because they were born to Jewish mothers...doesn't make them born with a belief in G-d.

Darcy_Collins
PeaFixture

PeaNut 514,615
July 2011
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Posted: 11/15/2012 5:32:50 PM
I remember a similar discussion about the ethnic versus religious aspects of Judaism a few months back. I learned quite a bit. I still think it would be easier if you all could come up with separate words - sort of like Hispanic and Catholic. One can be Catholic but not Hispanic (as one can convert to Judaism with no familiar heritage whatsoever) and Hispanic but not Catholic (like when a Jew has the cultural and ethnical heritage but is self defined atheist) Or of couse you can be both, as many Jews are view their Judaism from both cultural, ethnical and religious viewpoints. I use Hispanic deliberately as it is also a term conveying ethnical and cultural similarities without a nationality.

But I suppose that's coming from the perspective of an agnostic individual who doesn't really factor religion into my self identiy, but like to find cultural and ethnical heritage. I was fascinated to learn that I have Jewish ancestors from my maternal line. The were part of the Crypto Jews of New Mexico.

mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea

PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
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Posted: 11/15/2012 5:45:12 PM

and I know they do not take blood when men become a "Jew By Choice"


Not so, at least not in all synagogues. I just had a male friend convert (Reform) and he had to undergo circumcision.



Sorry if I was unclear---I was referring to my synagogue there



Skybar
Perfect Peaing

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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:13:44 PM

Atheism is a religion

It is kind of funny that you believe that atheism is a religion but that your version of Christianity is not a religion.

not at all. Christianity isn't 'my' version - it's what God's Word says it is. If you listen to many Christians, you'll hear many of them say the same thing. I've read that same thing on this board by other peas.


Atheism is a religion - and considered one by our SC. Everyone has a god - whether they are their own god, or their work is or money is or sex or drinking or something else of this world is.

You mean in the way some people play god on a message board, by doling out the correct information about what is, and what isn't, to the unwashed, dirty, filthy masses that do not include you and your special brand of omniscience? Your ego is unfathomable.

sort of proves my point... if you are claiming a human is a god. Some - like you - do that. some that believe what they 'think' is truth over what God says are their own god.

having an ego isn't something I've been accused of IRL. I have heard the opposite.

I guess you know me so much better than my family and friends.


70% of Israeli Jews claim to be secular. They are Jewish because they were born to Jewish mothers...doesn't make them born with a belief in G-d.

' They are Jewish because they were born to Jewish mothers' - according to some here that seems to be just for some people born to a Jewish mother.


Christianity is not a religion... but atheism is?

Oh that's it, you are off your rocker Skybar.

I'm so shocked - lol!




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:24:31 PM

' They are Jewish because they were born to Jewish mothers' - according to some here that seems to be just for some people born to a Jewish mother.

No, it's for all people born to a Jewish mother, at least according to Jewish tradition.

Unless they CHOOSE to change their faith to a different belief. Like, say, belief in Jesus. Then they are Christians. Christians who would be welcomed back to the fold should they so choose, but still, for now, Christians.

I am just not in the mood to allow you the last word today.

ETA on the subject of being "born" Jewish, here is a very cute, funny little movie that anyone can enjoy. My Muslim friend made her husband watch it ... he didn't want to, he was prepared to be offended ... but even he loved it. The Infidel


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
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Posted: 11/18/2012 7:24:08 PM

Not at all. If I had to pick a label, I'd say Modern Orthodox machmir/Dati Leumi. Not sure if that means anything to you


Thanks for sharing. I do know what that is, and have great respect for it.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
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Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/18/2012 8:43:58 PM

I totally understand that 'reading isn't belief'. My question on it comes from my reading up on the requirements for the Jewish Messiah. What I'm reading lists requirements coming from books in the OT other than the Torah. Wouldn't requirements coming from any of those other books involve more than just reading of them?


Okay, in order to discuss, you need to understand that your Old Testament is not the Torah because of translation issues. Therefore, Judaism and the Torah to justify your own different beliefs is going to fail. You either accept the Torah is the word of Hashem, or you don't.

Therefore, you need to read Torah instead of whatever man made creation book to understand what Judaism is.

There are plenty of references to World to Come (the Messianic Age) in the Torah. The best way to reconcile your faith with ours is simple: you'll think Mashiach is second coming, and ours the first. Everyone happy.

It is not my intent to question or reaffirm the beliefs of Gentiles, because Jews aren't supposed to do that. But I will say all the answers to your questions are in the Torah -- Hashem's true word -- and you will find some very huge conflicts with major tenets of Christianity in the Torah, but that shouldn't matter if you are secure in your faith.


While I'm asking these questions, I have another. Who determined which verses make up these requirements?


Hashem. Rambam and other rabbinical scholars merely codified and commented on them.

I haven't yet had time to look up all of the verses to read more than what is listed. I've looked up one and plan to look up the others.


Another question - do all of the divisions of Judaism go by the same list of requirements for the Messiah?


Why are you going through this exercise? Isn't it enough to state "this is what I believe?" If you are going through Jewish texts to justify Christian or Catholic beliefs, then you aren't going to find it. All you will find is conflict, especially in Hashem's word. It only helps Gentiles to do that if they are trying to affirm they are Noahchide.
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