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wren*walk
PeaAddict
PeaNut 481,431
September 2010
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 |  Posted: 11/17/2012 5:14:29 PM
Based upon your medical knowledge, is it possible that the procedure of removing the fetus was what led to the infection?
I happen to think it is very unlikely, given the chronology of events.
And in saying that, I happen to agree with those who say there is still much unknown here that needs to come out.
However, I've read not only the article in the OP but many other news reports out there on this story. I can link other ones if you like.
Many of them go into much more detail regarding the timeline, statements by the hospital, and opinions on the case by other doctors.
From the various reports it seems clear that the woman went straight from the procedure to a critical care unit. It therefore seems implausible that the D&C was the cause of her deterioration, specifically, the sepsis. Ordinarily, D&C is a very minor procedure and women go home the same day.
I've worked in a surgical critical setting and have never taken a patient following such a routine procedure. Now can there be incidents and things here we don't know, sure. But based on the available reports and particularly the timeline, I would be shocked for a whole other bunch of reasons, if the procedure itself were the causal factor in her demise.
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Anna*Banana
:blink:
PeaNut 69,360
February 2003
Posts: 22,763
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 | Posted: 11/17/2012 5:15:08 PM
Of course you're being dismissive. And I understand what a D&C is.  I was 15 weeks, Wren-Walk. I was "threatening" miscarriage with excessive bleeding and unbearable cramping. There was a heartbeat. Again, I wonder if the management of miscarriage is managed different then it used to be. I mentioned my situation because it seems to have been handled different.
I did deliver a 20 week pregnancy as well. The baby did not survive.  I was not given a D&C after that delivery but given oxytocin to deliver the placenta.
I wish our resident OBGYN was here to guide us a bit here.  |
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compeater opeator
PeaNut
PeaNut 376,677
May 2008
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 | Posted: 11/17/2012 5:22:12 PM
I think you can't take one life to save another. If you and I are standing on a cliff that can only hold one person, I can't push you off to save my own life, nor could anyone else push you off to save my life.
But what if you were both going over that cliff and someone else could only save one of you. Should they not try to save one because both of you could not be saved? | |
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aslan
PeaFixture
PeaNut 138,465
March 2004
Posts: 3,635
Layouts: 28
Loc: South East
 | Posted: 11/17/2012 5:59:10 PM
wren, thank you for respectfully answering and for posting those additional facts. As I've said before, if the medical professionals placed their personal religious beliefs above the life of this mother, it is inexcusable. I was not willing to conclude that based upon the information previously presented. With this additional information, I still have not formed a settled opinion, but I am far less inclined than before to give the doctors the benefit of the doubt.
I hope that the inquest provides clear answers and that if it is shown definitively that an abortion would have saved her life, that all negligent parties will be held appropriately accountable for malpractice. |
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
- G.K. Chesterton
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
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| Posted: 11/17/2012 6:20:13 PM
Of course you're being dismissive. And I understand what a D&C is
No, I really was not being dismissive but think what you will.
Nor did I anywhere question your understanding of what a D&C is.
I thought i was saying that there is no one answer to a vague question/scenario, such as you posted. And since I do not know the specifics of your case I was advising you, should you choose to want to find out, that there is a vast literature out there that could assist you.
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
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| Posted: 11/17/2012 6:24:08 PM
wish our resident OBGYN was here to guide us a bit here
Check the other thread about this.
I'm pretty sure I saw her post something there.
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
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| Posted: 11/17/2012 6:27:38 PM
I hope that the inquest provides clear answers and that if it is shown definitively that an abortion would have saved her life, that all negligent parties will be held appropriately accountable for malpractice
That is my hope too. And I hope that if need be, the grey areas in the law will be clarified and free the doctors to do their job without fear of repercussiosns, if that is part of what happened here.
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Ursula Schneider
BucketHead
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July 2003
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Loc: Southeastern Arizona
| Posted: 11/18/2012 7:09:39 AM
This is a terrible loss to this family. Terrible. No one can, or would try to explain that away.
But the thing about this that strikes me is how evident it is to me that people are generally inclined to believe that we are able to control life and death if only we live in a 'civilized' country. Yet people die unexpectedly every day, and many times, that is the result of a medical procedure. Without the medical procedure they may have died, but with it,they did die.
I am pro-life. I was NOT in that situation and I am glad. I would be very careful to pray and ask God for direction had I been in that family's situation. However, not being completely apprised of all the facts, it is impossible for me to make a judgement of what decision I'd have made in their shoes and I don't see how any of us on this board can do so reasonably either, because we are lacking all the information.
That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
I am truly sorry for this man's loss and for the turmoil this case has surly caused within the attending medical staff. I have every confidence that this woman or her child's death were the last result they had hoped for. |
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CountryHam
StuckOnPeas
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August 2007
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 7:39:01 AM
That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
You said that very well. Ty.
====================
What if it is two people dangling from the edge of that cliff, one barely grasping the ledge, and the other hanging one's tether has become entangled in such a way that he is hanging on to the first and pulling him off?
This scenario more closely approximates what happens when continuing a pregnancy threatens the life of a mother
What would Ido?
If I was a mother, and my child was wrapped
around me while I hung on a precipice
with my fingers. I absolutely can not imagine
kicking that child loose from my body,
to plummet to the ground, so that I then can
pull my own self up on the ledge to safety.
What I can imagine is holding on as long as
I can while reassuring my child. I would fight
as long as I could. Either we both would go
down, or we both would be saved at the last second.
Or worse case, the child dies and lets go of
me on it's accord. |
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aslan
PeaFixture
PeaNut 138,465
March 2004
Posts: 3,635
Layouts: 28
Loc: South East
| Posted: 11/18/2012 8:14:50 AM
What would Ido?
If I was a mother, and my child was wrapped
around me while I hung on a precipice
with my fingers. I absolutely can not imagine
kicking that child loose from my body,
to plummet to the ground, so that I then can
pull my own self up on the ledge to safety.
What I can imagine is holding on as long as
I can while reassuring my child. I would fight
as long as I could. Either we both would go
down, or we both would be saved at the last second.
Or worse case, the child dies and lets go of
me on it's accord.
Country Ham, I admire you that you would do that. It is a selfless thing. Some might argue, though, that it is a senseless thing. Especially if there were people up on the cliff whose lives would be forever altered by your death. Sometimes, in a case like this, the mother's death would leave behind a father to raise children alone. It would leave behind children to be raised without the love and nurture of a mom. In a case like that, I hope that they would not be judged for their decision to have an abortion as a life saving measure for the mother.
As I said, in a situation such as this, I don't think it is a matter of placing more value on one life than on another. I think that letting two people die when one could be spared diminishes the value of both. |
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
- G.K. Chesterton
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scrappammie
PeaAddict
PeaNut 208,055
June 2005
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 | Posted: 11/18/2012 10:22:32 AM
Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
I'm kind of gaping here. 
Whether I choose to believe or not, you're saying that I'm breathing oxygen due to the deity of YOUR choice?
Does anyone else see the fallacy in this argument?
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aslan
PeaFixture
PeaNut 138,465
March 2004
Posts: 3,635
Layouts: 28
Loc: South East
| Posted: 11/18/2012 10:25:51 AM
Does anyone else see the fallacy in this argument?
I don't think fallacy is the right word. I get that you don't believe the way that she does, but if she believes that there is a God who created the Universe and that it is because of His kindness that we live and breathe, then that belief would not be dependent upon anyone else's acceptance of it. |
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
- G.K. Chesterton
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scrappammie
PeaAddict
PeaNut 208,055
June 2005
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Loc: not stuck in tiny town anymore!
| Posted: 11/18/2012 11:03:17 AM
aslan - I struggled with "fallacy" and "hypocrisy" and really couldn't make up my mind. I'm referring to the larger argument of the thread.
If the poster assumes that except for the benefit of *her* deity we would cease to exist, how can her viewpoint be anything but biased?
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe we can ever hope to find common ground with those who disagree with us (on any topic) if we have already sanctimoniously confiscated said ground. Does that make sense?
Maybe I should have used specious instead? Either way, I believe the reasoning to be flawed. | |
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Carey Ayn
why
PeaNut 41,258
June 2002
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 11:09:27 AM
Just a reminder:
See those little feet in my avatar? They are of my son, Beckett, born at 22weeks because he was induced. If I had chosen not to induce, we both would have died. He was very much wanted, held, loved photographed and remembered. On this last Friday, he would have been six.
See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard) they would not be here, my dh would be a widow, my parents without their daughter. (I had an infection in my uterus, low amniotic fluid and had a placental abruption underway--my pregnancy was no longer sustainable and I had spent the previous month of my pregnancy with an emergency cerclage and hospital bedrest, just in case you think this was a willy nilly decision).
Country Ham, if you have a daughter, I hope she never has to face the decision I had to. If she chose your way, you would be without your child and your grandchild. In the abstract, I'm sure you think they'll both be in a better place, and it's God's will, but the reality is this coming weekend, I still get to talk to my mom, hug her, Christmas shop with her, eat Thanksgiving dinner, and trim her Christmas tree.
Just now, I took a break from this post to comfort my four year old because he fell. Last night, I was able to take them both to Suessical the Musical and watch their eyes light up. I get to hear them laugh, watch them grow and hopefully see them become men.
I'm able to love my dh, be his partner, parent with him and mourn and remember with him.
THIS life is tragic, hard, and so beautiful it makes me cry. What possible good would have come out of my death?
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gar
Whoopea!
PeaNut 172,235
October 2004
Posts: 12,459
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Loc: England UK
 | Posted: 11/18/2012 11:11:21 AM
Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm kind of gaping here.
Whether I choose to believe or not, you're saying that I'm breathing oxygen due to the deity of YOUR choice?
Does anyone else see the fallacy in this argument?
We are thinking the same thing.
How can you say "Whether you choose to believe or not..." and then say that the reason we're here *is* because of god. I choose not to believe, therefore I am *not* here because of him or his loving kindness.
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"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen Roberts
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TankTop
I teach, therefore I am a teacher
PeaNut 25,495
December 2001
Posts: 9,055
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Loc: Stuck in the 80's
 | Posted: 11/18/2012 11:19:44 AM
I can assure that after suffering through three second trimester miscarriages I do not consider them to be abortions, spontaneous or otherwise.
I don't give a damn what kind of screwed up medical terminology or insurance coding refers to it as. It was my child who left my body without intent or desire.
(and for the record I am not a pro-lifer, but a we do not use optional abortions as a means of birth control when the choice to use other birth control measures were available +note this does not mean rape/incest) |
"Childhood is what you spend the rest of your life trying to overcome." Hope Floats
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aslan
PeaFixture
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March 2004
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 11:27:13 AM
Carey Ann, it is precisely because of stories like yours that I am staunchly pro life while supporting the right to abortion to save the life of the mother. I'm so glad you are here. So very happy for those who love you and are celebrating each glorious day of life with you in it. Yours was a tragic decision to have to make. To let go of a baby so wanted, so loved. It is a mystery of life that something so painful can at the same time be the path to so much joy and fulfillment in life. I know you must think that each time you hug the little ones with you and ache for the one you lost. Thank you for sharing your story with us. ((hugs)) |
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
- G.K. Chesterton
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CountryHam
StuckOnPeas
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August 2007
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 12:17:24 PM
See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard)
Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really? |
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pennyring
Thrift Ninja
PeaNut 226,011
October 2005
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 12:44:46 PM
I see the available scenarios like this:
a. ) One person will die
or
b. ) Two people will die
I pick "A". Minimize loss. The end.
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Carey Ayn
why
PeaNut 41,258
June 2002
Posts: 17,552
Layouts: 321
Loc: Minnesota
| Posted: 11/18/2012 1:38:47 PM
See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard)
Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really?
Trying to put my grey situation into your black and white thinking.
Let's get this straight:
What you are saying is if the baby can be saved because he/she is 22 plus weeks then "induction" is ok and the mother can live---- if the parents try to save the baby's life. If the baby is induced prior to 22 weeks when the baby can't live, it is wrong. Mom is supposed to die.
Either way, by your standards, there is no chance for me in your absolute world. We CHOSE not to take life prolonging methods. He was 22weeks, he had been in an infected uterus with limited amniotic fluid and we could not wait for surfactant to kick in for his lungs. Believe me, I asked and contemplated waiting 48 hours for it to kick in, but they said I would likely die and/or he most certainly would die anyway in that time. And like I said before on this board, you have your dh crying and begging you not to leave him, while you are in labor (because I was but I had a cerclage-stitch- in my cervix keeping it shut because it had already dilated to three 4 weeks earlier), and then come back to me and tell me about your morality.
We were given the choice to try and save his life, but we decided the most loving thing we could do was to hold him and love him while his heart stopped beating. We were one of then"lucky" few who were forced to give birth at 22/23 weeks when parents are given a choice. Lucky us.
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WannaPea
No Peas for you ! Come back one year!
PeaNut 151,172
June 2004
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Layouts: 175
Loc: In my PJ's
| Posted: 11/18/2012 1:42:06 PM
Carey-your kids are just beautiful. |
Cop's wife - Mom to one
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." ~ Delos B. McKown
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lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker
PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 14,375
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:09:45 PM
Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really?
I think you completely misunderstood Carey Ayn. She induced labor knowing the child would die, because she knew that otherwise she would die TOO. This was a different child, not the boys in her siggy.
She should not have had to go into another long, painful (for her) explanation just because you didn't read her first post carefully enough.
Your cavalier attitude toward other women's actual lives and the hard medical decisions they have to make utterly bewilders me. |
LUCYG
northern california
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell
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*maureen*
Bad Wolf
PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
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Loc: Wheaton
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:18:45 PM
Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
Prove it. |
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emmafrost
BucketHead
PeaNut 486,917
November 2010
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Loc: Maryland
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:19:22 PM
You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.
I wanted to deliver my fourth child in a Catholic hospital, I am not Catholic, however, I was told that they would would not allow my doctor to perform a tubal ligation. I had to change doctors and hospitals to have this procedure and I did. Know before you go. |
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dynalady
My soul is fed with needle and thread
PeaNut 25,620
December 2001
Posts: 20,146
Layouts: 49
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:28:05 PM
Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs. |
   
"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts
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lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker
PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 14,375
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:40:11 PM
You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.
I wanted to deliver my fourth child in a Catholic hospital, I am not Catholic, however, I was told that they would would not allow my doctor to perform a tubal ligation. I had to change doctors and hospitals to have this procedure and I did. Know before you go.
You understand that this incident occurred in Ireland, a Catholic country with different laws from ours, correct? It wasn't a matter of just choosing a different hospital. |
LUCYG
northern california
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell
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khazlett
BucketHead
PeaNut 231,422
November 2005
Posts: 755
Layouts: 0
Loc: USA
| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:42:59 PM
Carey Ann, it is precisely because of stories like yours that I am staunchly pro life while supporting the right to abortion to save the life of the mother. I'm so glad you are here. So very happy for those who love you and are celebrating each glorious day of life with you in it. Yours was a tragic decision to have to make. To let go of a baby so wanted, so loved. It is a mystery of life that something so painful can at the same time be the path to so much joy and fulfillment in life. I know you must think that each time you hug the little ones with you and ache for the one you lost. Thank you for sharing your story with us. ((hugs))
Aslan said my beliefs beautifully. | |
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wren*walk
PeaAddict
PeaNut 481,431
September 2010
Posts: 1,822
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| Posted: 11/18/2012 2:50:59 PM
You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.
Induction is not always the wisest medical option. Depends on the scenario, age of the pregnancy, many other factors.
From the legal standpoint of the American system, it certainly sounds easy enough to say there was probably malpractice. It is not so simple an explanation in a country where you have what have been described as "grey areas" in the law, which allegedly put a straight jacket on medical practice in such cases.
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lynlam
Don'tcha wish your girlfriend had spurs like mine?
PeaNut 46,248
August 2002
Posts: 6,367
Layouts: 41
Loc: Ohio
| Posted: 11/18/2012 8:36:37 PM
Just wondering what the staunch pro-choicers think of this:
Woman dies at the hands of planned parenthood
Is this any more or less tragic than the poor woman in Ireland? |
 
"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge
Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill. | |
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Lumo
Carolina dorkburger
PeaNut 233,457
November 2005
Posts: 16,516
Layouts: 38
Loc: An hour west of Blue Heaven
| Posted: 11/18/2012 8:43:53 PM
Just wondering what the staunch pro-choicers think of this:
Woman dies at the hands of planned parenthood
Is this any more or less tragic than the poor woman in Ireland?
--------------
Isn't that a bit of an asinine question?
Of course that's a tragic situation as well. Is there a scale of tragedy whereby we have to rank whether it was more or less tragic? Both situations are very sad.
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Kelly
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*maureen*
Bad Wolf
PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 5,301
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Loc: Wheaton
| Posted: 11/18/2012 8:45:13 PM
No less tragic and just as much an example of why people need to be educated about all medical procedures. | |
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Ursula Schneider
BucketHead
PeaNut 97,497
July 2003
Posts: 992
Layouts: 94
Loc: Southeastern Arizona
| Posted: 11/18/2012 9:28:33 PM
I can't prove God's existence. I live by faith in an unseen God, though evidence of His masterful design is everywhere I look, including in the faces of those who deny His existence.
The one thing I can tell you is that faith in God is the reason I live the way I do today. I can tell you that faith in God is the reason I am not a drug addicted prostitute, or dead somewhere, because he changed my life radically and totally. I can tell you that it was God who very clearly placed it in my heart to adopt 4 children whose mother was a meth addict and who was dying. It was God who has since changed my son from a raging child on the way to prison to a loving young man who can see the errors of his past ways and now reaches out to offer hope to others. I can tell you that without God, I'd have left my husband many times because of my own selfishness, but because God speaks to calm my spirit, I remain in a committed loving marriage after 20 years. (and that though my own mother's been divorced twice, my father 5 times and myself once, and in spite of my having been a victim of multiple abuses of every variety, though the statistics were against me in every possible way) My life changed is proof enough for me.
I'd ask you though, can you prove love? Can you prove there is air? Heck, can you prove evolution? But you believe they exist don't you.
Take it from another point of view, whether or not you believe in God, you do realize that there is not one person on this earth who controls life and death. NOT. ONE.
Yet we sure do think we do. And did you read anything else in my post, or did you just zero in on the fact that you don't believe in God and stop up your ears about the other points I brought up? And if so, why? Do you believe that a person who believes in God must have turned off all of their brain? That they are unable to think rationally since clearly they are irrational in that particular area (according to you). Is that really fair? Or tolerant? |
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*maureen*
Bad Wolf
PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 5,301
Layouts: 0
Loc: Wheaton
| Posted: 11/18/2012 9:49:38 PM
Can you prove there is air?
Yes, I can prove air exists.
Heck, can you prove evolution?
No, that's a belief, just like a belief in G-d. Both of which I subscribe to for the record. I'm capable of believing in both science and a higher power. | |
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,532
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 11/18/2012 10:20:08 PM
CaryAnn....I think your opinion is the only one that REALLY counts!
The rest of us can only imagine, you have actually had to make the choice, and for the sake of your family, I'm glad you did. To risk the life of the mother for a baby that's not viable, just because it happens to have a heartbeat, is stupid beyond belief.
I don't believe God make any rules on having an abortion, or not, in order to save the life of the mother, men made up those rules based on what they 'think' God wanted, so I'm not sure why God even enters the picture...but if he does, and he chooses to take both mother and child...he's not a God I want controlling my life. | |
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Scraplizard
BucketHead
PeaNut 187,311
January 2005
Posts: 532
Layouts: 6
Loc: Northern MI
| Posted: 11/18/2012 10:21:17 PM
1)I don't think there is enough evidence either way to make an educated (or not) decision on this topic.
2)There are so many left wing liberalists here. Cool. However, I have to say...I get kind of tired of having your beliefs stuffed down my throat too. | |
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Lumo
Carolina dorkburger
PeaNut 233,457
November 2005
Posts: 16,516
Layouts: 38
Loc: An hour west of Blue Heaven
| Posted: 11/18/2012 10:58:50 PM
However, I have to say...I get kind of tired of having your beliefs stuffed down my throat too.
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Believe me, the feeling is mutual. Not you specifically  |
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Kelly
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gar
Whoopea!
PeaNut 172,235
October 2004
Posts: 12,459
Layouts: 0
Loc: England UK
| Posted: 11/19/2012 2:21:49 AM
And did you read anything else in my post, or did you just zero in on the fact that you don't believe in God and stop up your ears about the other points I brought up? And if so, why? Do you believe that a person who believes in God must have turned off all of their brain? That they are unable to think rationally since clearly they are irrational in that particular area (according to you). Is that really fair? Or tolerant?
For me, I just couldn't ignore the fact that you said (in essense) 'Whether or not you believe in god.......god did create everyone and everything.' Which clearly is a belief that you hold but is meaningless and incorrect to anyone who doesn't, nothing more.
I'm happy that you have such a strong faith - it's obviously been a massive force for good in your life - so there's no intolerance there at all on my part
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"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen Roberts
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Sukkii
PeaNut
PeaNut 539,967
January 2012
Posts: 341
Layouts: 0
 | Posted: 11/19/2012 3:03:42 AM
Someone said.....
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That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
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I totally disagree with what you say but dream on. You can live in your bubble of belief, I tend to live in the real world.
I am Pro-Choice, a 17 week fetus is a parasite, and before you Pro-Lifers get all wound up, a 17 week old fetus cannot survive without the host.
I am astonished at how many educated women would think that dying to preserve a life that was ending is the way society should continue.
To the mother that would fall off the cliff, I would try to save my kid and die trying, that is just a maternal thing, I would not have to think about it but I would also try to think of other ways to get help to save both of us.
Your analogy does not hold up however, because a 17 week fetus cannot survive without the mother, and because of Anti-Abortionists a healthy woman died and her baby was going to die anyway.
I am against Abortion for birth control, I am for abortion in the right circumstances and especially if it means saving the life of the mother.
How can anyone argue that an unfeasible fetus at 17 weeks is more valuable than a fully grown adult, for me that beggars belief!!
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Sukkii
PeaNut
PeaNut 539,967
January 2012
Posts: 341
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 11/19/2012 5:07:08 AM
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Sukkii
PeaNut
PeaNut 539,967
January 2012
Posts: 341
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 11/19/2012 5:15:26 AM
Someone said.....
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That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
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I totally disagree with what you say but dream on. You can live in your bubble of belief, I tend to live in the real world.
I am Pro-Choice, a 17 week fetus is a parasite, and before you Pro-Lifers get all wound up, a 17 week old fetus cannot survive without the host.
I am astonished at how many educated women would think that dying to preserve a life that was ending is the way society should continue.
To the mother that would fall off the cliff, I would try to save my kid and die trying, that is just a maternal thing, I would not have to think about it but I would also try to think of other ways to get help to save both of us.
Your analogy does not hold up however, because a 17 week fetus cannot survive without the mother, and because of Anti-Abortionists a healthy woman died and her baby was going to die anyway.
I am against Abortion for birth control, I am for abortion in the right circumstances and especially if it means saving the life of the mother.
How can anyone argue that an unfeasible fetus at 17 weeks is more valuable than a fully grown adult, for me that beggars belief!!
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WannaPea
No Peas for you ! Come back one year!
PeaNut 151,172
June 2004
Posts: 26,834
Layouts: 175
Loc: In my PJ's
| Posted: 11/19/2012 5:43:00 AM
Heck, can you prove evolution?
No, that's a belief, just like a belief in G-d.
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Cop's wife - Mom to one
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." ~ Delos B. McKown
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lynlam
Don'tcha wish your girlfriend had spurs like mine?
PeaNut 46,248
August 2002
Posts: 6,367
Layouts: 41
Loc: Ohio
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*maureen*
Bad Wolf
PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 5,301
Layouts: 0
Loc: Wheaton
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:09:12 AM
Sorry Wannapea, I should have said it's a theory, just like G-d. It had been a long day and I was having trouble putting my thoughts into words. | |
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Carey Ayn
why
PeaNut 41,258
June 2002
Posts: 17,552
Layouts: 321
Loc: Minnesota
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:11:57 AM
Agreed. But it begs the question...it really does. So many are all aghast that some think the life of the unborn child is equally as important as the mothers. In the Ireland case, the mother (apparently) wanted the child but it was not to be, but according to the countries abortion laws, was (apparently) denied the medical procedure and lost her life. In the case I linked, the woman did not want the child (apparently) and according to the nations abortion laws, was given the medical procedure and lost her life.
In both cases a father and child are left without their partner/mother.
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.
So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.
Both are tragic and both stories leave a lot of questions unanswered. The link you provided is of course biased, not saying it is wrong, but like the other story, there are still many questions and this story doesn't seem to have any witnesses to corroborate what the article is implying. Again, not saying it is incorrect.
Beyond that, I don't think the comparison is a good one. One story is of a woman who was REFUSED medical help when needed/asked.
The other is a story of a woman who chose to undergo a medical procedure, which by its very nature implies a certain danger.
It's like if I go in for a heart attack and in one situation they refuse me medical attention. In the other situation, they give me medical attention but there are complication in surgery and I die anyway.
Both are sad and there is a decent chance that both deaths could have been avoided, but we may never know for sure. |
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APeaCalledLiz
Don't lose your.... OOOOhh look a Bunny!
PeaNut 46,489
August 2002
Posts: 5,655
Layouts: 71
Loc: Maine
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:15:24 AM
Agreed. But it begs the question...it really does. So many are all aghast that some think the life of the unborn child is equally as important as the mothers. In the Ireland case, the mother (apparently) wanted the child but it was not to be, but according to the countries abortion laws, was (apparently) denied the medical procedure and lost her life. In the case I linked, the woman did not want the child (apparently) and according to the nations abortion laws, was given the medical procedure and lost her life.
In both cases a father and child are left without their partner/mother.
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.
So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.
In the Planned Parenthood case that woman chose that medical procedure knowing fully the possible outcomes. She knew that having an abortion could lead to her own death as well, she made an informed decision for herself. In the Ireland case that woman wanted an abortion, she requested it and was denied. It's apples to oranges. |
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*maureen*
Bad Wolf
PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 5,301
Layouts: 0
Loc: Wheaton
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:21:09 AM
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.
I would beg to differ, it was covered quite extensively here in town when it occurred and continues to be covered as the legal battle around it is dealt with, pro-life websites areas to be using it for fodder in the same way pro-choice websites are using the story of the woman in Ireland. | |
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aslan
PeaFixture
PeaNut 138,465
March 2004
Posts: 3,635
Layouts: 28
Loc: South East
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:25:04 AM
maureen, lynlam specifically said "press coverage". I don't think she was referring to blogs, but to the actual media attention these stories are receiving. I don't think you will find that on a wide scale the two are comparable. |
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
- G.K. Chesterton
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Dalai Mama
La Pea Boheme
PeaNut 49,641
September 2002
Posts: 24,142
Layouts: 85
Loc: Drunk on the lawn in a nuclear dawn
| Posted: 11/19/2012 7:39:02 AM
Sorry Wannapea, I should have said it's a theory, just like G-d.
No, not like God. Theories are testable, religion is not. Evolution is rigorously tested, God is taken on faith. The two are not comparable. But it's Monday, so I'll forgive you.  |
Jo Mama
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Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn
The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
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doesitmatter?
AncestralPea
PeaNut 509,811
May 2011
Posts: 4,848
Layouts: 21
| Posted: 11/19/2012 10:30:39 AM
Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs.
You don't what her to tell you what to believe but you think it's okay for you to say "as wrong as it is"????
By your own standard and quote above, you are the definition of a hypocrite as you said, "but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs." But you want to tell her that she is wrong?
Double standard.
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doesitmatter?
AncestralPea
PeaNut 509,811
May 2011
Posts: 4,848
Layouts: 21
| Posted: 11/19/2012 10:36:03 AM
Oh and fwiw - not everyone has to believe, know, or understand something for it to be true.
Go ahead, fight it out, I'll just pray and know that one day every head will bow and every knee will bend and know the one true God. I hope many of you will accept and His gift and have eternal. I am sorry if you do not, but it is your choice.
That is all. | |
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