What do you staunch pro-lifers think of this?

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Posted 11/16/2012 by reality_junkie in NSBR Board
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wren*walk
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Posted: 11/17/2012 6:27:38 PM

I hope that the inquest provides clear answers and that if it is shown definitively that an abortion would have saved her life, that all negligent parties will be held appropriately accountable for malpractice





That is my hope too. And I hope that if need be, the grey areas in the law will be clarified and free the doctors to do their job without fear of repercussiosns, if that is part of what happened here.








Ursula Schneider
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Posted: 11/18/2012 7:09:39 AM
This is a terrible loss to this family. Terrible. No one can, or would try to explain that away.

But the thing about this that strikes me is how evident it is to me that people are generally inclined to believe that we are able to control life and death if only we live in a 'civilized' country. Yet people die unexpectedly every day, and many times, that is the result of a medical procedure. Without the medical procedure they may have died, but with it,they did die.

I am pro-life. I was NOT in that situation and I am glad. I would be very careful to pray and ask God for direction had I been in that family's situation. However, not being completely apprised of all the facts, it is impossible for me to make a judgement of what decision I'd have made in their shoes and I don't see how any of us on this board can do so reasonably either, because we are lacking all the information.

That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.

I am truly sorry for this man's loss and for the turmoil this case has surly caused within the attending medical staff. I have every confidence that this woman or her child's death were the last result they had hoped for.



CountryHam
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Posted: 11/18/2012 7:39:01 AM

That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.


You said that very well. Ty.


====================

What if it is two people dangling from the edge of that cliff, one barely grasping the ledge, and the other hanging one's tether has become entangled in such a way that he is hanging on to the first and pulling him off?

This scenario more closely approximates what happens when continuing a pregnancy threatens the life of a mother


What would Ido?
If I was a mother, and my child was wrapped
around me while I hung on a precipice
with my fingers. I absolutely can not imagine
kicking that child loose from my body,
to plummet to the ground, so that I then can
pull my own self up on the ledge to safety.
What I can imagine is holding on as long as
I can while reassuring my child. I would fight
as long as I could. Either we both would go
down, or we both would be saved at the last second.
Or worse case, the child dies and lets go of
me on it's accord.



scrappammie
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:22:32 AM

Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.


I'm kind of gaping here.

Whether I choose to believe or not, you're saying that I'm breathing oxygen due to the deity of YOUR choice?

Does anyone else see the fallacy in this argument?




scrappammie
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Posted: 11/18/2012 11:03:17 AM
aslan - I struggled with "fallacy" and "hypocrisy" and really couldn't make up my mind. I'm referring to the larger argument of the thread.
If the poster assumes that except for the benefit of *her* deity we would cease to exist, how can her viewpoint be anything but biased?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe we can ever hope to find common ground with those who disagree with us (on any topic) if we have already sanctimoniously confiscated said ground. Does that make sense?

Maybe I should have used specious instead? Either way, I believe the reasoning to be flawed.

Carey Ayn
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Posted: 11/18/2012 11:09:27 AM
Just a reminder:

See those little feet in my avatar? They are of my son, Beckett, born at 22weeks because he was induced. If I had chosen not to induce, we both would have died. He was very much wanted, held, loved photographed and remembered. On this last Friday, he would have been six.

See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard) they would not be here, my dh would be a widow, my parents without their daughter. (I had an infection in my uterus, low amniotic fluid and had a placental abruption underway--my pregnancy was no longer sustainable and I had spent the previous month of my pregnancy with an emergency cerclage and hospital bedrest, just in case you think this was a willy nilly decision).

Country Ham, if you have a daughter, I hope she never has to face the decision I had to. If she chose your way, you would be without your child and your grandchild. In the abstract, I'm sure you think they'll both be in a better place, and it's God's will, but the reality is this coming weekend, I still get to talk to my mom, hug her, Christmas shop with her, eat Thanksgiving dinner, and trim her Christmas tree.

Just now, I took a break from this post to comfort my four year old because he fell. Last night, I was able to take them both to Suessical the Musical and watch their eyes light up. I get to hear them laugh, watch them grow and hopefully see them become men.

I'm able to love my dh, be his partner, parent with him and mourn and remember with him.

THIS life is tragic, hard, and so beautiful it makes me cry. What possible good would have come out of my death?




gar
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Posted: 11/18/2012 11:11:21 AM

Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm kind of gaping here.

Whether I choose to believe or not, you're saying that I'm breathing oxygen due to the deity of YOUR choice?

Does anyone else see the fallacy in this argument?




We are thinking the same thing.

How can you say "Whether you choose to believe or not..." and then say that the reason we're here *is* because of god. I choose not to believe, therefore I am *not* here because of him or his loving kindness.





Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


TankTop
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Posted: 11/18/2012 11:19:44 AM
I can assure that after suffering through three second trimester miscarriages I do not consider them to be abortions, spontaneous or otherwise.

I don't give a damn what kind of screwed up medical terminology or insurance coding refers to it as. It was my child who left my body without intent or desire.


(and for the record I am not a pro-lifer, but a we do not use optional abortions as a means of birth control when the choice to use other birth control measures were available +note this does not mean rape/incest)


"Childhood is what you spend the rest of your life trying to overcome." Hope Floats


CountryHam
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Posted: 11/18/2012 12:17:24 PM

See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard)


Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really?



pennyring
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Posted: 11/18/2012 12:44:46 PM
I see the available scenarios like this:

a. ) One person will die

or

b. ) Two people will die


I pick "A". Minimize loss. The end.




Carey Ayn
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Posted: 11/18/2012 1:38:47 PM

See those boys in my siggy? Had I not induced (aborted by Country Ham's standard)


Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really?


Trying to put my grey situation into your black and white thinking.


Let's get this straight:
What you are saying is if the baby can be saved because he/she is 22 plus weeks then "induction" is ok and the mother can live---- if the parents try to save the baby's life. If the baby is induced prior to 22 weeks when the baby can't live, it is wrong. Mom is supposed to die.

Either way, by your standards, there is no chance for me in your absolute world. We CHOSE not to take life prolonging methods. He was 22weeks, he had been in an infected uterus with limited amniotic fluid and we could not wait for surfactant to kick in for his lungs. Believe me, I asked and contemplated waiting 48 hours for it to kick in, but they said I would likely die and/or he most certainly would die anyway in that time. And like I said before on this board, you have your dh crying and begging you not to leave him, while you are in labor (because I was but I had a cerclage-stitch- in my cervix keeping it shut because it had already dilated to three 4 weeks earlier), and then come back to me and tell me about your morality.

We were given the choice to try and save his life, but we decided the most loving thing we could do was to hold him and love him while his heart stopped beating. We were one of then"lucky" few who were forced to give birth at 22/23 weeks when parents are given a choice. Lucky us.




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Posted: 11/18/2012 1:42:06 PM
Carey-your kids are just beautiful.


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lucyg819
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:09:45 PM

Inducing labor with the intent of giving the unborn children
a chance at life is a whole lot different then intervening to CAUSE the death the of infant. You don't see the difference? Really?

I think you completely misunderstood Carey Ayn. She induced labor knowing the child would die, because she knew that otherwise she would die TOO. This was a different child, not the boys in her siggy.

She should not have had to go into another long, painful (for her) explanation just because you didn't read her first post carefully enough.

Your cavalier attitude toward other women's actual lives and the hard medical decisions they have to make utterly bewilders me.


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*maureen*
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:18:45 PM

Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.



Prove it.


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emmafrost
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:19:22 PM
You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.

I wanted to deliver my fourth child in a Catholic hospital, I am not Catholic, however, I was told that they would would not allow my doctor to perform a tubal ligation. I had to change doctors and hospitals to have this procedure and I did. Know before you go.







dynalady
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:28:05 PM

Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.


You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




lucyg819
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:40:11 PM

You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.

I wanted to deliver my fourth child in a Catholic hospital, I am not Catholic, however, I was told that they would would not allow my doctor to perform a tubal ligation. I had to change doctors and hospitals to have this procedure and I did. Know before you go.

You understand that this incident occurred in Ireland, a Catholic country with different laws from ours, correct? It wasn't a matter of just choosing a different hospital.


LUCYG
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khazlett
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:42:59 PM

Carey Ann, it is precisely because of stories like yours that I am staunchly pro life while supporting the right to abortion to save the life of the mother. I'm so glad you are here. So very happy for those who love you and are celebrating each glorious day of life with you in it. Yours was a tragic decision to have to make. To let go of a baby so wanted, so loved. It is a mystery of life that something so painful can at the same time be the path to so much joy and fulfillment in life. I know you must think that each time you hug the little ones with you and ache for the one you lost. Thank you for sharing your story with us. ((hugs))


Aslan said my beliefs beautifully.

wren*walk
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Posted: 11/18/2012 2:50:59 PM

You can be in the process of miscarrying at the point where they can not save the baby and be given medication to acclerate the process which is also the same procedure to start an abortion. What happened to this woman is malpratice, plain and simple.




Induction is not always the wisest medical option. Depends on the scenario, age of the pregnancy, many other factors.

From the legal standpoint of the American system, it certainly sounds easy enough to say there was probably malpractice. It is not so simple an explanation in a country where you have what have been described as "grey areas" in the law, which allegedly put a straight jacket on medical practice in such cases.






lynlam
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Posted: 11/18/2012 8:36:37 PM
Just wondering what the staunch pro-choicers think of this:

Woman dies at the hands of planned parenthood

Is this any more or less tragic than the poor woman in Ireland?





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

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Lumo
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Posted: 11/18/2012 8:43:53 PM
Just wondering what the staunch pro-choicers think of this:

Woman dies at the hands of planned parenthood

Is this any more or less tragic than the poor woman in Ireland?
--------------

Isn't that a bit of an asinine question?

Of course that's a tragic situation as well. Is there a scale of tragedy whereby we have to rank whether it was more or less tragic? Both situations are very sad.



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*maureen*
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Posted: 11/18/2012 8:45:13 PM
No less tragic and just as much an example of why people need to be educated about all medical procedures.

Ursula Schneider
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:28:33 PM
I can't prove God's existence. I live by faith in an unseen God, though evidence of His masterful design is everywhere I look, including in the faces of those who deny His existence.

The one thing I can tell you is that faith in God is the reason I live the way I do today. I can tell you that faith in God is the reason I am not a drug addicted prostitute, or dead somewhere, because he changed my life radically and totally. I can tell you that it was God who very clearly placed it in my heart to adopt 4 children whose mother was a meth addict and who was dying. It was God who has since changed my son from a raging child on the way to prison to a loving young man who can see the errors of his past ways and now reaches out to offer hope to others. I can tell you that without God, I'd have left my husband many times because of my own selfishness, but because God speaks to calm my spirit, I remain in a committed loving marriage after 20 years. (and that though my own mother's been divorced twice, my father 5 times and myself once, and in spite of my having been a victim of multiple abuses of every variety, though the statistics were against me in every possible way) My life changed is proof enough for me.

I'd ask you though, can you prove love? Can you prove there is air? Heck, can you prove evolution? But you believe they exist don't you.

Take it from another point of view, whether or not you believe in God, you do realize that there is not one person on this earth who controls life and death. NOT. ONE.

Yet we sure do think we do. And did you read anything else in my post, or did you just zero in on the fact that you don't believe in God and stop up your ears about the other points I brought up? And if so, why? Do you believe that a person who believes in God must have turned off all of their brain? That they are unable to think rationally since clearly they are irrational in that particular area (according to you). Is that really fair? Or tolerant?



*maureen*
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Posted: 11/18/2012 9:49:38 PM

Can you prove there is air?


Yes, I can prove air exists.


Heck, can you prove evolution?


No, that's a belief, just like a belief in G-d. Both of which I subscribe to for the record. I'm capable of believing in both science and a higher power.

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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:20:08 PM
CaryAnn....I think your opinion is the only one that REALLY counts!

The rest of us can only imagine, you have actually had to make the choice, and for the sake of your family, I'm glad you did. To risk the life of the mother for a baby that's not viable, just because it happens to have a heartbeat, is stupid beyond belief.

I don't believe God make any rules on having an abortion, or not, in order to save the life of the mother, men made up those rules based on what they 'think' God wanted, so I'm not sure why God even enters the picture...but if he does, and he chooses to take both mother and child...he's not a God I want controlling my life.

Scraplizard
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:21:17 PM
1)I don't think there is enough evidence either way to make an educated (or not) decision on this topic.

2)There are so many left wing liberalists here. Cool. However, I have to say...I get kind of tired of having your beliefs stuffed down my throat too.

Lumo
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Posted: 11/18/2012 10:58:50 PM
However, I have to say...I get kind of tired of having your beliefs stuffed down my throat too.
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gar
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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:21:49 AM

And did you read anything else in my post, or did you just zero in on the fact that you don't believe in God and stop up your ears about the other points I brought up? And if so, why? Do you believe that a person who believes in God must have turned off all of their brain? That they are unable to think rationally since clearly they are irrational in that particular area (according to you). Is that really fair? Or tolerant?


For me, I just couldn't ignore the fact that you said (in essense) 'Whether or not you believe in god.......god did create everyone and everything.' Which clearly is a belief that you hold but is meaningless and incorrect to anyone who doesn't, nothing more.

I'm happy that you have such a strong faith - it's obviously been a massive force for good in your life - so there's no intolerance there at all on my part



Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


Sukkii
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Posted: 11/19/2012 3:03:42 AM
Someone said.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally disagree with what you say but dream on. You can live in your bubble of belief, I tend to live in the real world.
I am Pro-Choice, a 17 week fetus is a parasite, and before you Pro-Lifers get all wound up, a 17 week old fetus cannot survive without the host.
I am astonished at how many educated women would think that dying to preserve a life that was ending is the way society should continue.

To the mother that would fall off the cliff, I would try to save my kid and die trying, that is just a maternal thing, I would not have to think about it but I would also try to think of other ways to get help to save both of us.

Your analogy does not hold up however, because a 17 week fetus cannot survive without the mother, and because of Anti-Abortionists a healthy woman died and her baby was going to die anyway.

I am against Abortion for birth control, I am for abortion in the right circumstances and especially if it means saving the life of the mother.
How can anyone argue that an unfeasible fetus at 17 weeks is more valuable than a fully grown adult, for me that beggars belief!!


Sukkii
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Posted: 11/19/2012 5:07:08 AM

Sukkii
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Posted: 11/19/2012 5:15:26 AM
Someone said.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That said, it is God who gives life and God who takes it in the end. Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness. He is the one in control, and I believe that is what makes many angry and hostile toward him because we are prone to think we know better and we sit here stomping our petulant feet that he won't take our advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally disagree with what you say but dream on. You can live in your bubble of belief, I tend to live in the real world.
I am Pro-Choice, a 17 week fetus is a parasite, and before you Pro-Lifers get all wound up, a 17 week old fetus cannot survive without the host.
I am astonished at how many educated women would think that dying to preserve a life that was ending is the way society should continue.

To the mother that would fall off the cliff, I would try to save my kid and die trying, that is just a maternal thing, I would not have to think about it but I would also try to think of other ways to get help to save both of us.

Your analogy does not hold up however, because a 17 week fetus cannot survive without the mother, and because of Anti-Abortionists a healthy woman died and her baby was going to die anyway.

I am against Abortion for birth control, I am for abortion in the right circumstances and especially if it means saving the life of the mother.
How can anyone argue that an unfeasible fetus at 17 weeks is more valuable than a fully grown adult, for me that beggars belief!!


WannaPea
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Posted: 11/19/2012 5:43:00 AM

Heck, can you prove evolution?



No, that's a belief, just like a belief in G-d.


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lynlam
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Posted: 11/19/2012 6:28:37 AM
"Of course that's a tragic situation as well. Is there a scale of tragedy whereby we have to rank whether it was more or less tragic? Both situations are very sad. "
---------

Agreed. But it begs the question...it really does. So many are all aghast that some think the life of the unborn child is equally as important as the mothers. In the Ireland case, the mother (apparently) wanted the child but it was not to be, but according to the countries abortion laws, was (apparently) denied the medical procedure and lost her life. In the case I linked, the woman did not want the child (apparently) and according to the nations abortion laws, was given the medical procedure and lost her life.
In both cases a father and child are left without their partner/mother.
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.

So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.
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*maureen*
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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:09:12 AM
Sorry Wannapea, I should have said it's a theory, just like G-d. It had been a long day and I was having trouble putting my thoughts into words.

Carey Ayn
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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:11:57 AM

Agreed. But it begs the question...it really does. So many are all aghast that some think the life of the unborn child is equally as important as the mothers. In the Ireland case, the mother (apparently) wanted the child but it was not to be, but according to the countries abortion laws, was (apparently) denied the medical procedure and lost her life. In the case I linked, the woman did not want the child (apparently) and according to the nations abortion laws, was given the medical procedure and lost her life.
In both cases a father and child are left without their partner/mother.
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.

So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.


Both are tragic and both stories leave a lot of questions unanswered. The link you provided is of course biased, not saying it is wrong, but like the other story, there are still many questions and this story doesn't seem to have any witnesses to corroborate what the article is implying. Again, not saying it is incorrect.

Beyond that, I don't think the comparison is a good one. One story is of a woman who was REFUSED medical help when needed/asked.

The other is a story of a woman who chose to undergo a medical procedure, which by its very nature implies a certain danger.

It's like if I go in for a heart attack and in one situation they refuse me medical attention. In the other situation, they give me medical attention but there are complication in surgery and I die anyway.

Both are sad and there is a decent chance that both deaths could have been avoided, but we may never know for sure.



APeaCalledLiz
Don't lose your.... OOOOhh look a Bunny!

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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:15:24 AM

Agreed. But it begs the question...it really does. So many are all aghast that some think the life of the unborn child is equally as important as the mothers. In the Ireland case, the mother (apparently) wanted the child but it was not to be, but according to the countries abortion laws, was (apparently) denied the medical procedure and lost her life. In the case I linked, the woman did not want the child (apparently) and according to the nations abortion laws, was given the medical procedure and lost her life.
In both cases a father and child are left without their partner/mother.
So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.

So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.



In the Planned Parenthood case that woman chose that medical procedure knowing fully the possible outcomes. She knew that having an abortion could lead to her own death as well, she made an informed decision for herself. In the Ireland case that woman wanted an abortion, she requested it and was denied. It's apples to oranges.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



*maureen*
Bad Wolf

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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:21:09 AM

So I guess my point is this: the Ireland case is tragic and (apparently) very rare, yet it is garnering incredible outrage. The PP case is tragic and very rare, yet gets absolutely no press coverage.


I would beg to differ, it was covered quite extensively here in town when it occurred and continues to be covered as the legal battle around it is dealt with, pro-life websites areas to be using it for fodder in the same way pro-choice websites are using the story of the woman in Ireland.

Dalai Mama
La Pea Boheme

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Posted: 11/19/2012 7:39:02 AM

Sorry Wannapea, I should have said it's a theory, just like G-d.
No, not like God. Theories are testable, religion is not. Evolution is rigorously tested, God is taken on faith. The two are not comparable. But it's Monday, so I'll forgive you.


Jo Mama

***********************************

Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn

The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams


doesitmatter?
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:30:39 AM

Every one who is here, whether or not you choose to believe in the God who set the world in motion is breathing oxygen as a result of His loving kindness.


You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs.



You don't what her to tell you what to believe but you think it's okay for you to say "as wrong as it is"????

By your own standard and quote above, you are the definition of a hypocrite as you said, "but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs." But you want to tell her that she is wrong?

Double standard.


doesitmatter?
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:36:03 AM
Oh and fwiw - not everyone has to believe, know, or understand something for it to be true.

Go ahead, fight it out, I'll just pray and know that one day every head will bow and every knee will bend and know the one true God. I hope many of you will accept and His gift and have eternal. I am sorry if you do not, but it is your choice.

That is all.

dynalady
My soul is fed with needle and thread

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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:13:39 AM

You don't what her to tell you what to believe but you think it's okay for you to say "as wrong as it is"????


Yes, its perfectly okay. She stated what she believes. I stated what I believe.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




baby fever pea
Jeepers PEApers

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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:02:28 PM
My heart is hurting for this woman & her family.

I hope I'm never in the situation that Carey was in, & I know that my dh would want me to live as well. ((Hugs)) to you Carey for having to re-live that on this message board.


Angela

"Nobody gets everything in this life. You decide your priorities & you make your choices. I decided long ago that any cake I had would be eaten." ~Donald E. Westlake

"The longer I live, the more I observe that carrying around anger is the most debilitating to the person who bears it." ~Katherine Graham

"Remember there's no such thing as a small act of kindness. Every act creates a ripple with no end." ~Scott Adams

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

16 year survivor of infertility... still waiting for my miracle...

Ursula Schneider
PeaAddict

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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:55:46 PM
Does anyone else find it ironic that for me, a person of faith to state my beliefs in an open forum is evidently equivalent to 'shoving them down someone else's throat'. However, for someone with an opposing view to state their beliefs is somehow not 'shoving them down someone else's throat'.

I get that people don't agree with my beliefs. And I am in no way trying to force anyone to believe what I believe. But the fact is, I DO believe and live accordingly. And another fact is that the laws and policies that are pushed DO affect my life directly. My tax dollars fund abortions and many of other programs that I fundamentally disagree with. Yet according to what I've read on this and other threads, I don't have the right to speak against those policies.

Really??


I totally disagree with what you say but dream on. You can live in your bubble of belief, I tend to live in the real world. I am Pro-Choice, a 17 week fetus is a parasite, and before you Pro-Lifers get all wound up, a 17 week old fetus cannot survive without the host. I am astonished at how many educated women would think that dying to preserve a life that was ending is the way society should continue.

How can anyone argue that an unfeasible fetus at 17 weeks is more valuable than a fully grown adult, for me that beggars belief!!


Not only this, but how many people feel that since my statements are based on a 'religious' view it is ok to label them as ignorant? In fact, according to the poster quoted above, it is beyond belief that an educated person could think this way. Yet the reality is that millions of educated people think this way. Who should be incredulous? Are you just incredulous because those millions don't happen to agree with you? Because their education leads them to a different conclusion? You assume it is wrong because?????? Have you even looked at the reasons why the other side believes abortion to be a problem, aside from the religious reasons? I can see why the religious reasoning would hold no water for a non-believer, but there is a lot more to it than just that. Have you witnessed an abortion procedure? In detail? Have you watched as an aborted fetus delivered alive is left to die?


You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs.


I do not expect you to live by my beliefs, neither do I expect to live, or pay for, yours.



MergeLeft
Typical Liberal

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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:02:24 PM

And another fact is that the laws and policies that are pushed DO affect my life directly. My tax dollars fund abortions and many of other programs that I fundamentally disagree with.


And your church operates as a non-profit and doesn't pay taxes (thereby requiring me to pay more in taxes) and your faith-based charities receive federal funding straight from my pocket. Life isn't fair and no one said you were going to agree with everything your tax dollars are used for. Get over it.



Carey Ayn
why

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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:04:44 PM

I hope I'm never in the situation that Carey was in, & I know that my dh would want me to live as well. ((Hugs)) to you Carey for having to re-live that on this message board


Thank you and to all the kind words many of you have offered.

I do want you all to know that I would not post those words if it hurt me to do so. I will always long for my child and I will carry his memory with me, but six years have passed and I am in a good place. I have never minded sharing my story, and at times, I have felt it was therapeutic.

My intentions on this thread and others like it are to show the multiple facets of this issue and to hopefully soften the hearts of some of the posters who see this issue in such polarizing absolutes.

Real life happens to real people. I am just an everyday person living an everyday life. When I post my experience and then I look back at the post, it freaks me out a little bit because although it was incredibly traumatic and has affected my life in many ways, my world no longer revolves around that day or decision. I have made my peace with it. At the time it happened, I was consumed with longing and grief. I didn't think of it at the time as part of some ongoing abortion/women's rights debate. It has only been through this board that I realized that there are people who think what I did was wrong. I felt I did the most loving and most difficult thing I could do.

It was "the perfect storm" of situations, but unfortunately, level three+ NICU hospitals around the country have "perfect storms" happen every day. There are real woman who are faced with these very real decisions a those women.



gar
Whoopea!

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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:13:30 PM

I am sorry if you do not, but it is your choice.




Oh please don't be sorry for my decisions. I don't need your pity any more than you want mine.



Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


wren*walk
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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:00:20 PM

So at issue is the abortion procedure itself. The death of a young healthy woman is only worth noting when it can outrage the pro-abortion crowd.




I disagree with this, the two situations are too dissimilar.

Unfortunately, and rarely, people do die when undergoing relatively minor surgical procedures. Which is all the more reason why they should only ever be carried out in the appropriate medical setting.

I should have liked the article you linked to have had more details of what went wrong in this case, since medically, it is of great intrest to me, to have those types of answers whenever something like this occurs. Did she have a preexisting condition, was the procedure botched, unexplained hemorrhage etc etc...but there was nothing.

Sadly, these unexpected outcomes do occur though, and they generally don't get a lot of press. I'm fairly sure the only reason this got as much as it did was because it was an abortion procedure, vs say a tonsillectomy.

The story in Ireland is quite different and has far reaching repercussions for the well being of the women in that country, since it concerns the very laws of their state. And according to the reports, that woman had requested an abortion, but was denied.

The only irony i see, is that had the poor woman lived in the US, she MAY well have had a different outcome, since the law here is not grey. And from my viewpoint, that is a good thing.

And Carey Ann, I read your posts yesterday and your experiences really affected me. Especially the little feet, I had no idea and I've looked at your avatar so often. I just don't know how people survive such heartache, but you are obviously a very strong woman and your opinions here are enlightening in so many ways. I'm so sorry for your past pain and wish you the best in everything.







GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian

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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:05:53 PM

You have every right to believe that, as wrong as it is, but you have NO right at all to expect me to live by your beliefs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I do not expect you to live by my beliefs, neither do I expect to live, or pay for, yours.
Just like I don't want you to live by my beliefs and I don't want to pay for yours either. The thing is, you have no right to say that your beliefs are better than mine, nor I you. Thus all options have to be available. Women have the right to make the best choice for themselves. You and your beliefs do not have any more right to make that choice for her than I do. Thus all the options must be available, legal and an option for all women.

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

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Posted: 11/19/2012 2:58:21 PM

My intentions on this thread and others like it are to show the multiple facets of this issue and to hopefully soften the hearts of some of the posters who see this issue in such polarizing absolutes.


Thank you Carey.


Wren, thank you for your very informative posts.

All pregnancies are dangerous. When it comes to the outcome of this particular pregnancy and the realistic idea that the woman may have had a chance to live if medically treated differently, then it becomes a medical issue, what treatments the laws allow, and whether or not there was medical malpractice.

It's no less sad that a woman receiving a "typical" abortion dies, but the broader consequences are different than this case.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



JenKate77
Reading when I should be cleaning!

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Posted: 11/19/2012 3:15:32 PM

I am solidly anti-abortion but I believe in very narrow life of the mother exceptions.

Because this case is being exploited as a convenient stick to beat the Catholic Church with I will also point out that the Catholic Church has a very nuanced position on this which most people are not interested in learning about. For example, if necessary medical care for the mother will result in the loss of a child it is still absolutely acceptable in Catholic moral theology.


This. (I'm not Catholic, but I'm surprised at how often my beliefs line up with theirs. And I love the Latin, the ceremony, the Vatican... maybe someday I'll convert. )

And this:


I say this as a staunchly pro life person. I will always believe that it is far better to save one life than to lose two. I cannot imagine any justification for allowing both mother and child to die when termination of the pregnancy would spare her.


In situations like this I think the only acceptable answer is leaving the decision in the hands of the doctor and the woman, with help from her spouse and/or higher power if she has them and wants their input.
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