The Jews!!/ My preacher is a fool: update in Op

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Posted 11/20/2012 by smilesnpeacesigns in NSBR Board
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desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/22/2012 3:39:21 PM

I'd already been denied the job because my "personal testimony" didn't suit them. I wouldn't have worked there if I were starving to death.


Again, I would have approached it differently if I wanted the job. No big deal.



Don't laugh at me, but I was already brought up that there is a Jewish part of Heaven and a Christian part of Heaven. I have taught that belief to my children as well.



Eventually, people will teach there is a Muslim part as well.


Mostly, it is not about Jewish people any more, but christians who want to hammer down things down each others' throats.


Aren't you happy you are Jewish? I mean, we Jews never disagree on Jewish thought and practices.

sharonmnc
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Posted: 11/22/2012 6:08:10 PM

I think maybe we might want to be nice to everyone! Let God judge them when he feels like it. God wants us to love everyone so I do. Or I try really hard anyways.
Now there's a plan.

I appreciate how respectful this thread has remained. As a Christian, I'm sorry that a few of us make others uncomfortable in the name of religion.


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PennyPaws
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Posted: 11/22/2012 7:07:11 PM

Mostly, it is not about Jewish people any more, but christians who want to hammer down things down each others' throats.
My perception.


Lindywholoveskids, that's what I try to avoid doing so if my comments contributed to that, I want to apologize to you for that...


As a Christian, I'm sorry that a few of us make others uncomfortable in the name of religion.


Sharonmnc, I agree... I understand why people (myself included) have difficulty apologizing for the stumbles we as imperfect beings make while trying to speak about something perfect... Perhaps worried that it will sound like an apology *for* the religion, but I think when hurt has been caused it is important to be an example of compassion and humbleness... It makes me sad to see something I love and believe in cause anyone any sort of hurt...



*maureen*
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Posted: 11/23/2012 7:21:36 AM

For those who profess the Christian faith, but are offended by this pastor's message, where do you stand on Scriptures that proclaim Christianity's exclusivity?


The scriptures were manipulated by men who were trying to control people through religion. The bible contains the books the Catholic Church considered important. It was purely political and therefore should be strongly questioned.


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*maureen*
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Posted: 11/23/2012 8:05:07 AM
Aslan, honestly I mean this with no snark, I'm not interested in getting into a philosophical debate. You asked the question and I answered it. I think G-d is big enough for more than one religion. Agree or disagree your choice.

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AncestralPea

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Posted: 11/23/2012 8:05:40 AM
I attend mass on a regular basis. Overall, what I have taken away from the readings is that Jesus was all inclusive and loved everyone. I think he would be hurt to see people today using his name and his words to condemn others.

junior tx
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Posted: 11/23/2012 8:46:40 AM
I don't post often but this subject is always so powerful, I just can't sit on my hands today.
I was raised Catholic, attended other Christian churches while seeking G-d, and ended up studying Judaism (B'nai Noach)for several years.
That study lead to a shift in perspective. Our culture is so Christian centered it is hard to understand a non-Christian point of view.
I don't consider myself a Christian, but I am not a Jew and I have no desire to convert, yet I love Judaism.
I have dear friends who are devout Christians, who know my beliefs, and are respectful. Others, not so much.
The one thing I try to share with my Christian friends, is that when you witness to a Jew using the New Testament, it is an utter failure. It would be helpful if Christians studied the Old Testament, and not from a Christian perspective, but from a Jewish one. It is the Jewish bible.
The act of witnessing to a person of the Jewish faith, seems so arrogant and disrespectful to me now. And by arrogant, I mean that it is said in one breath that the Jews are G-d's chosen people, yet I want to explain to you how you are missing the REAL thing by not accepting Jesus as Messiah. Unless you understand Jewish texts and not from a Christian point of view, how can you expect them to take anything you say as valid. Christianity was born of Judaism. If you don't have an understanding of what Mashiach means, you lose credibility.
I am not trying to convince anyone that my beliefs are right for anyone but me. I just want to help my Christian friends understand the perception (at least in my experience) because of the lack of understanding and knowledge of Judaism.
My personal belief is that G-d has a plan. A plan that includes all righteous people. I also believe that there are things we are not given to know or understand. Even in the bible. Ours is not a perfect understanding.
I am also a fan of kindness.

WinoGirl
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Posted: 11/23/2012 9:32:19 AM
I'm glad you walked out OP.

I was raised Catholic. I always analyzed everything that was said and it didn't work for me on many levels, so I left it behind as soon as I left home at 18.

I respect other people's religious beliefs as long as they don't push it on others.

As for going to Heaven...there's a lot of people here on Earth that I don't care to spend any time with; why would I want to spend an eternity with them?

If people like Bill O'Reilly, Skybar and CountryHam are going to Heaven, count me out!!!
I'll aspire to someplace else that has higher standards.

Sorry, I'm blunt but it's the truth.


I did learn something on this thread though: I must be missing out.
*Note to self: Next time you fire up the grill, purchase Vienna all beef or Hebrew National hot dogs!!

lynlam
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Posted: 11/23/2012 9:53:52 AM
"If people like Bill O'Reilly, Skybar and CountryHam are going to Heaven, count me out!!! "
--------
Just about the most hateful ignorant thing I have read in 10 years in this place.





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moveablefeast
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Posted: 11/23/2012 10:33:58 AM

For those who profess the Christian faith, but are offended by this pastor's message, where do you stand on Scriptures that proclaim Christianity's exclusivity? Are there different versions of the Bible that people follow? Do you consider the text of the New Testament to be obsolete? To where would you go to understand the tenets of the faith?


Aslan, I'll take this one on.

I would not say that I was specifically offended by what I understood of the pastor's sermon. Not having heard it I don't know enough about it to really comment.

I guess where I am with it right now is this. I believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah. I also understand why and how the Jews of His time did not understand that. They were looking for something very different. I also understand that this has been a source of a great deal of anti-Jewish thought, and that Christians have historically been guilty of that in ways that range from mild misunderstanding to absolutely horrific. So I intend to tread lightly with this matter.

As for the exclusivity of Christ - I believe that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. I beleve that He did say that no one comes to the Father except through Him. However, I also believe that God is good and just - would He turn His back on His chosen people because they did not understand that He sent the one He did? I have a hard time believing that He would.

I do not believe that one word of the Bible is obsolete. And while I understand that the Scriptures have been used in political ways and that there has been manipulation of them over the years, I also believe that the truth of God's saving love for man has endured and is True in all places and at all times. It's okay with me if people want to quibble about translations, or about what books belonged in the Bible, and extracanonical works don't intimidate me at all, although I don't believe everything that is in them. But at the end of the day, I do still believe that there is one true God, and that Jesus Christ is His son, was born as a man, was crucified, died, and buried, and rose again from the dead as a ransom for us.

The Bible is the only written record that we have of God's interactions with His people. It is, in my opinion, the final authority for faith and doctrine.

And it obviously does command evangelism.

But in the context of this conversation - I have Jewish friends, some of them particularly observant. Obviously our beliefs about Jesus are completely different. And I am not a relativist, so I don't say that this is true for me, and it's OK if you don't believe it's true for you - I do believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah. But I am trying to live my life in a way that demonstrates Christ, not to speak of my faith in a way that demands other people believe in Him. I am happy to speak about Him, but I am not inclined to try to beat people about the head with that. I am not going to set out to convert my Jewish friends. But I have had people in my life who are seekers, who want to know if Jesus is real, and that is something I am very happy to talk about at any time. Because I believe that Jesus is real and that knowing who Jesus is has made a difference in my own life. That doesn't change with the scenery. But how I talk about that certainly does.

Hope that makes some sense.

mom22reds
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Posted: 11/23/2012 10:44:43 AM
EXCELLENT response, moveablefeast! ITA completely.

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Posted: 11/23/2012 11:25:48 AM

Mostly, it is not about Jewish people any more, but christians who want to hammer down things down each others' throats.


LOL!! The most observant of Ultra-Orthodox Jews simply don't speak to those Jews whom they consider not to be following 'rules'. Even the Chief Rabbi in Israel told Orthodox Jews it was 'better not to pray on Yom Kippur than to pray with Reform Jews'...Oy Vey!

daanibee
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Posted: 11/24/2012 10:21:26 AM

Just about the most hateful ignorant thing I have read in 10 years in this place.


So I take it you don't go through your posting history?


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gorgeouskid
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Posted: 11/24/2012 10:26:15 AM
Wow. My Presbyterian church often does civic outreach programs with the synagogue down the street (blood drives, canned good drives, clothing drives.) Our pastor frequently has lunch with their rabbis. He has never said a negative word about the Jewish people and does much to foster a positive relationship.

I would also leave a sermon and a church that spouted suck drek.

lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 11/24/2012 11:14:02 AM
pennypaws, thanks for the apology.

I am not reading this thread any more, however.

katybee8
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Posted: 11/24/2012 1:19:42 PM
I grew up Catholic and I never got the memo about trying to convert Jews. I only got the message that Jews were God's chosen people and we needed to leave them be and respect their religion. After all, if it weren't for their religion, we would not have had ours!

I never heard anything about people from any specific religion going on a journey to hell for not being Catholic. "In my father's house there are many mansions." It's one of the few Bible verses I actually remember and I have always took it to mean that there are many ways to God.

I think religions are more alike than different.


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Posted: 11/24/2012 2:30:14 PM
The argument about Jews being G-d chosen people doesn't carry a lot weight with me. It only means we were chosen to be gifted the Torah. It doesn't mean we are better than anyone else or should be treated differently from anyone else.

So when people say you shouldn't proselytize to Jews b/c we're 'chosen' but should to other religions, I don't look at you with more respect and I'm not more thankful b/c I think you should respect everyone and leave them all to their own beliefs regardless of your thoughts regarding those beliefs.

As to living your life and 'evangelizing' by example, by all means please do. I think we all should do this. If someone comes to Judaism or Christianity or atheism b/c they see someone who is one of those living a good life and treating others well b/c of the theology or lack thereof to which they ascribe, then that truly is the way they should come to it. Not b/c someone preys upon a person who is lost and searching and there appears to be an opportunity. That person would likely sign onto any belief system with a community approaching who would take them in. Christianity just happens to be the one that takes advantage and knocks on the doors. If Islam, Judaism or Atheism did this, we'd get them as well. The Christians who proselytize would balk plenty. But when they do it, it's ok b/c it's their 'calling'.

If you feel that recruiting and proselytizing is your calling, do it. But don't expect me as a Jew, or anyone else to give you a free pass b/c you 'explain' it and feel called upon to do it. We have every right to feel disrespected. I understand some of you are called upon to do this. Though not every Christian interprets it that way. Every act has consequences. If the consequence is that I have distaste for you and your outreach, so be it. OTOH, I have immense respect for Christians who lead by example. And if someone becomes a Christian b/c of that, by all means, have them. I think it's wonderful. It's how I live as a Jew. But not so they become Jewish, but rather b/c it's my example as a person



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




moveablefeast
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Posted: 11/24/2012 2:52:23 PM

The argument about Jews being G-d chosen people doesn't carry a lot weight with me. It only means we were chosen to be gifted the Torah. It doesn't mean we are better than anyone else or should be treated differently from anyone else.


I am in the middle of rereading the Bible from beginning to end. Started at Genesis and am in the midst of the historical books now. I am seeing the "chosen people" as so much more than just the recipients of the law. If you go back and read the end of Joshua, just as one example, there's this enormous sweep of sovereign divine action on behalf of the chosen people. And then what that leads into - the people's faithlessness but the faithfulness of God to the covenant. Over and over and over again He is faithful to the covenant. He has said "I will be your God and you will be my people" and everything that came with that is a personal and relational God reaching out to, and on behalf of, his people. And some of it is bewildering and confusing unless you read it as God's sovereign action. God certainly does treat His people differently than others - how about those Canaanites? A God who is that personal and hat faithful whilst His people are off serving the Baals would not be acting in His character if He were to hand them the Torah and then not love them in a personal way.

So that is what I mean when I talk about "chosen" - at least from my reading. I think that should certainly influence Christian thinking on Judaism.

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Posted: 11/24/2012 3:11:08 PM
Fine. But as a Jew, I care nothing about Christian thinking about Judaism in that respect. I care about people treating people with respect. To me, that's a cornerstone of Judaism and humanism. If I see people, Christian or otherwise, treating people in a way I find to be disrespectful, and they tell me I should be treated better b/c of something they interpret in their bible, I find that distasteful.

I have read the Torah through and through repeatedly. In Torah study, with my kids, etc. I have read Prophets. Just b/c G-d treated the Jews better and differently doesn't mean it was right. There are many lessons to learn. And some of those lessons are that G-d was not infallible. Just like our parents and leaders are not.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




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Posted: 11/24/2012 3:54:21 PM
There are Christians on this very thread who believe different things and believe they are called to do different things in G-d's name.

On this point I will speak on behalf of one Jew only and that is myself, though I know other Jews who believe that got is not perfect. No. G-d made mistakes and G-d is not perfect but that does not negate or lessen belief. It teaches us, since we were made in G-d image that we too can make mistakes but come back from them and do great things.

There are Jews who believe in the divinity of the Torah and take it literally and surely that G-d is infalliable. Perhaps they are fundamental Hasids or even some Orthodox Jews.

I would be shocked to find that the majority of Reform and even Conservative Jews (as am I) believe that G-d is completely perfect and that the Torah is to be taken literally. For I no longer stone people for adultery nor do I sacrifice lambs on the altar.

ETA: Being perfect and being holy are two things that have nothing to do w/each other, IMO. Of course G-d is holy. But there are people and places that are, as well. So I suppose our definitions are different.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Skybar
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Posted: 11/24/2012 3:58:39 PM

For those who profess the Christian faith, but are offended by this pastor's message, where do you stand on Scriptures that proclaim Christianity's exclusivity?

that's a good question.
Many proclaim to be a Christian and follow Christ (or not) but don't believe what He says to us? How do you know what to 'follow'?

Is there somewhere they find in the NT that Christ excludes proclaiming the gospel to the Jewish people? He didn't. He gathered a number of Jews close to Him and charged them to go on and continue spreading His Word.


The scriptures were manipulated by men who were trying to control people through religion. The bible contains the books the Catholic Church considered important. It was purely political and therefore should be strongly questioned.

Where do you get this info? from an atheist, secular website?

The CATHOLIC VERSION of the Bible contains those other books. I have a CV Bible - the Bible of my childhood. Very few verses in it were ever read. While I've since read a few of those books, it isn't the version I read and study now.

There are reasons those books were not included in the regular Bible. Have you looked up those reasons?


I think G-d is big enough for more than one religion. Agree or disagree your choice.

What does HE say about that in His Word?

He does give us a choice on what to believe - what He says or what the world says.


I attend mass on a regular basis. Overall, what I have taken away from the readings is that Jesus was all inclusive and loved everyone. I think he would be hurt to see people today using his name and his words to condemn others.


During school months I went to Mass 6-7 times a week. We went every school day prior to classes. In the summer often twice a week (Sat & Sun). Sunday as required by the CC and Saturdays for weddings or funerals. I sang in the choir and that continued thru-out the summer months.

Have you read those verses you heard someone else read and / or discuss? Taking 1 reading out of context doesn't always (or usually) give the correct meaning to it.

It has to be taken in light of other scriptures on the same topic. Who was 'talking' in those readings? (in the Bible) Who was being 'talked' to? and why?
Those all can change the meaning of the verse.

Jesus is all inclusive in that He gives everyone the opportunity to choose Him and know Him. He loves everyone so much He became man and died for them. He didn't have to do that. He is also God - a just God. He says He will judge us by His own Words. He gives details on that in His Word.

There's a lot more to what He has to say to us. A lot that wasn't in those readings. When I started reading the Bible for myself I found lots of things that were never in those 'readings' during a Mass - or in a catechism class (or at the UCC). I found a lot in the Bible that said much of what I did hear or learn in those readings and classes wasn't Biblical.

Why do you suppose some of those verses are never among the 'readings' in a service?


The one thing I try to share with my Christian friends, is that when you witness to a Jew using the New Testament, it is an utter failure.

Most Christians use the OT when witnessing to a Jewish person. Every testimony I've heard from a Jewish person who has accepted Christ is based on hearing/reading from the OT. like Isaiah 9 and /or Isaiah 53

The whole story of Christ is IN the OT. Including the promise of Him, His birth, His purpose here, His suffering and death - and His resurrection.


And by arrogant, I mean that it is said in one breath that the Jews are G-d's chosen people, yet I want to explain to you how you are missing the REAL thing by not accepting Jesus as Messiah.

yes, it was God Who sent Christ to them and all others.

you're saying God is arrogant?


Christianity was born of Judaism. If you don't have an understanding of what Mashiach means, you lose credibility.
I am not trying to convince anyone that my beliefs are right for anyone but me. I just want to help my Christian friends understand the perception (at least in my experience) because of the lack of understanding and knowledge of Judaism.

yes, Jesus was born a Jew. His early followers were Jews.

It's been my experience over the past 30 some yrs that Christians know more about what the OT says about the Messiah than Jews know about what the NT says about Him. Christians do study the OT in svcs and Bible studies. I don't think Jewish people study the NT, do they?





"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

ajsweetpea
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Posted: 11/24/2012 4:14:24 PM

It's been my experience over the past 30 some yrs that Christians know more about what the OT says about the Messiah than Jews know about what the NT says about Him. Christians do study the OT in svcs and Bible studies. I don't think Jewish people study the NT, do they?


I would imagine not since it does not pertain to their faith.


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batya
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Posted: 11/24/2012 4:59:20 PM

I don't think Jewish people study the NT, do they?


As much as Christians study the Koran since it is just as relevant.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Mimima
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Posted: 11/24/2012 5:15:41 PM

There are reasons those books were not included in the regular Bible. Have you looked up those reasons?


Why yes, yes I have. They were not "not included" by the Protestant reformers, they were actually deleted out of the Bible. Orthodox Christians base their translation on the Septuagint, which is actually the scriptures used by Christ and his Apostles. The Roman Catholic bible, and later the trimmed King James Bible use the Hebrew Scriptures, which are much later than theSeptuiagint


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Posted: 11/24/2012 5:54:36 PM

I've been to, and walked out of several churches, who claim to be the "only" one who is going to heaven


That reminds me of something my very good friend used to say. She belonged to the Church of Christ and she said that one must be very careful when they get to the Church of Christ members in heaven and tiptoe past them since they think they are the only ones there.


Carla




moveablefeast
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Posted: 11/24/2012 7:29:31 PM

I care about people treating people with respect. To me, that's a cornerstone of Judaism and humanism. If I see people, Christian or otherwise, treating people in a way I find to be disrespectful, and they tell me I should be treated better b/c of something they interpret in their bible, I find that distasteful.


See, this is the part I'm confused about. You've said that you don't believe in treating people differently because they're Jewish, and I don't either. You can read my posting history - I think I have been pretty consistent in my intent to treat people with respect and dignity.

I also don't treat my Jewish friends differently than, say, my pagan friends or my atheist friends. In my circle of friends, I am one of the only Christians and almost certainly the only evangelical Christian. I don't proselytize to any of them. I'm that annoying person who posts about Jesus on Facebook from time to time, but I'm not the one who sits at dinner and asks if any of them would like to accept Jesus as their personal savior. Not my style.

Where I differ from what I presume is the opinion of the pastor referenced in the OP, however, is that is my belief that faithful Jews will share in my salvation because of their particular relationship with God - they were the recipients of the covenant, to which God was continuously faithful whether they were or not - and I don't think that was ever negated. Does that mean I treat my Jewish friends differently? Of course not. It does mean that I think of Judaism in a different sense than I think of, say, atheism.


That person would likely sign onto any belief system with a community approaching who would take them in. Christianity just happens to be the one that takes advantage and knocks on the doors. If Islam, Judaism or Atheism did this, we'd get them as well.


Islam has a contingent that proselytizes with great vigor indeed - it is a rapidly growing religious group in many geographic and social areas even in the US. The mosque near my home is led by a former Christian minister who left the ministry and converted to Islam - just as one example.

For my part, the question I am asked from time to time is, "How exactly did a girl like you come to believe in Jesus?" And the answer is that I went around and around with other beliefs and other ideas for 20+ years of my life, I was a pagan, I played with new age, I was an atheist, I was "spiritual but not religious", I was even a Baha'i for a while in college, and then - it's like having lived in a dozen cities and suddenly finding "home". But that is really the question that I answer, how in the world did a girl like me end up with a faith like this. I don't knock on any doors, literal or figurative. But I believe that I know the One who does. And if someone wants to know who is knocking on the door of her heart, I'm willing to tell her what I believe about that.

I think the world provides plenty of other options as well, I really do. The culture is full of other options. You could say that I used to think of myself as a spiritual consumer in a cafeteria of options, but then I discovered that there was a seat at the banquet table with my name on it. I don't feel any great need to present any other options myself. The culture will happily do that for me.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
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Posted: 11/24/2012 7:35:43 PM

"In my father's house there are many mansions."



^^^THAT^^^

melanell
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 11/24/2012 7:50:54 PM

We've heard. We're not interested. We've got our own stuff and it's really cool. If we go to hell, it's ok. We'll all be there together roasting Hebrew National hot dogs.





Seriously, though, for the list of things I don't love about my church, I will say that in all my years of attending, I never heard a sermon where any other religion was put down. And I love them for that at least.

~NovaPeA~
*Sassy Latin Pea*

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Posted: 11/24/2012 8:32:26 PM
wow! that is just so wrong!!!!

I am glad you walked out...I would have too!


~~Sandy~~ SAHM to my son, full time student and wife.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/24/2012 8:50:36 PM

There are Jews who believe in the divinity of the Torah and take it literally and surely that G-d is infalliable. Perhaps they are fundamental Hasids or even some Orthodox Jews.

I would be shocked to find that the majority of Reform and even Conservative Jews (as am I) believe that G-d is completely perfect and that the Torah is to be taken literally. For I no longer stone people for adultery nor do I sacrifice lambs on the altar.


You have an extremely narrow and largely incorrect view of Jews and Judaism.

The majority of non-Reform Jews know the Torah is the true word of HaShem, not man's. Yet you claim you would be "shocked" to learn this. The Reform movement is the only major Jewish movement that rejects the divinity of Torah, but here are many, many so-called Conservative synagogues that are virtually indistinguishable from Reform teachings.

No wonder you get pissed off at all forms -- including Jewish forms -- of evangelism. You haven't demonstrated you hold any reverence of HaShem.

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

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Posted: 11/24/2012 9:06:05 PM
Thanking my lucky stars I've never been part of such a congregation, SNPS (OP).



PierKiss, I'm horrified for you. What a terrible terrible thing to happen that day!


Good post, Nightowl.


The few who have tried their darnedest to convert me..... let's just say they lost a lot of my respect. They were so full of assumptions. They may as well have been talking to a wall, because they heard nothing. SMH. It didn't even register we were from the same religion.






My favorite hotdogs are Oscar Mayer. I'm so sad now.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

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Posted: 11/24/2012 9:35:21 PM

This thread has really aroused my curiosity. For those who profess the Christian faith, but are offended by this pastor's message, where do you stand on Scriptures that proclaim Christianity's exclusivity? Are there different versions of the Bible that people follow? Do you consider the text of the New Testament to be obsolete? To where would you go to understand the tenets of the faith?


Answering from my POV....

The New Testament is not obsolete. I have my preference of Bibles because that's what I was raised with and that's what sounds right to me, but I don't care what one you use. I'm comfortable with the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, and that Jesus is still God's powerful force, even in Heaven. I accept that is the way for me, but I just can't imagine how others who have had entirely different lives would feel the same way I do.


Exclusive? I blank at the very idea. I can't begin to fathom it. No man comes to God but through Jesus seems to mean something different to me than most. Jesus was God's love personified. His life was all about showing God's love for each of us, and being the connection so we can have a personal relationship with God. When I hear "believe in Jesus....", above all else, I think it means to believe in Jesus' message.


Those who believe in that message of love are reaching out to God, whether they've ever been preached to or not. It is my belief that God reaches back to them. The end.










If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/24/2012 9:35:26 PM

I don't think Jewish people study the NT, do they?


For reaffirmation of our faith and curiosity, some of us do. That doesn't mean we accept the divinity of Jeus, as that is for you Christians to rationalize.

That is the whole point of my argument against some so-called Jews freaking out over any form of evangelism. The major reason why they freak out is because their faith is so fragile after centuries of rabbinical rule, while they fail to realize that is the exact reason people turned away from Judaism and started saying Jesus was divine.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 11/24/2012 9:58:06 PM
Desertpea, you are not only insulting but you are not hearing what I say.

To tell me I have no reverence for G-d is offensive. I will not get into a battle of wits nor will I get into a battle of wills with you. You have the narrow view for you accept no other interpretation but your own. I accept that there is a wide spectrum, from the Reform who eat shrimp to the Reform who believe in the divinity of Talmudic Rabbinical commentary to the Conservative egalitarian and Traditional Jews to the Modern and traditional orthodox and the Hasidim from yes, proselytizing (of Jews only) lubavitch to the rigid Satmar.

But there are many Jews who will tell you that they do not believe in the Torah as a literal book. You can scream til the cows come home that I'm wrong, and you have that right but it only highlights the narrowness of your beliefs. I accept that many Jews believe in the divinity and literalness of the books and many more see them as metaphor, though it is something we seek to teach and to guide us.

There is no Jewish denomination/synagogue that studies, as a body, formally, NT. Individual Jews read it, as I am one, to learn, but this is not something we do to reflect on our laws and tradition.

I was born Jewish in NYC/Brooklyn to a family of only Jews going back to eastern Europe Orthodoxy and beyond. I was raised in Conservative and Orthodox shuls. In just a couple years I will be president of my Conservative congregation of 500+ families. I find it hard to believe that I am unfamiliar with Jews and Judaism. I chant Torah from the Hebrew and trope alone and have been reading Hebrew since I was about 5. I've been in Torah study as an adult for 10+ years and have been asked to give many a dvar on Torah. I'd love to hear your pedigree and how you come by this higher knowledge. I find your posts on Judaism and your affectations about it very strange.

To say Jews do not like evangelism b/c our faith is week sounds like a catchphrase for Jews for Jesus.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
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Posted: 11/24/2012 10:09:12 PM

It does mean that I think of Judaism in a different sense than I think of, say, atheism.


I understand that you do in a theological sense, but as people, I don't. But a lot of people do. And this makes me angry. They are not less than. They are not something to be marginalized, converted or feared. They are not morally bereft.


Islam has a contingent that proselytizes with great vigor indeed - it is a rapidly growing religious group in many geographic and social areas even in the US. The mosque near my home is led by a former Christian minister who left the ministry and converted to Islam - just as one example.


That's not an example of proselytizing. It's an example of a man who found a different spiritual way. How is that an example?

I always find your posts to be kind, open-hearted. I appreciate that. You HAVE always posted in a way that treats people with respect and dignity. What I'm talking about it out and out proselytizing, which to the listener sounds like 'your choices are not right. They're not good enough. You need something else and you don't know what's right for you. You can't make decisions for yourself. I know better.' Which some on this thread agree IS what you are called upon to say and believe. That is rude and disrespectful.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 12:22:42 AM

Desertpea, you are not only insulting but you are not hearing what I say.

To tell me I have no reverence for G-d is offensive.


Quite frankly, it is you who is insulting by going off on your irrational tangents and claiming you have the right to declare what all Jews believe, especially after your rant basically saying atheism is okay.

You again skimmed my post. It's what -- the third time? I didn't say you don't have reverence for HaShem -- I specifically said you haven't demonstrated your reverence. And again, I won't expect an apology from someone who thinks people like me are on the same level as drug addicts.


You have the narrow view for you accept no other interpretation but your own. I accept that there is a wide spectrum, from the Reform who eat shrimp to the Reform who believe in the divinity of Talmudic Rabbinical commentary to the Conservative egalitarian and Traditional Jews to the Modern and traditional orthodox and the Hasidim from yes, proselytizing (of Jews only) lubavitch to the rigid Satmar.


No you don't. And again you falsely assume Chabad are the only Jews who proselytize to other Jews. You stated very plainly that you believe no one including Jews should proselytize to Jews. You don't know what movement or label of Judaism to call me, yet you say I have a "narrow view." You don't even know what my view is!!!


But there are many Jews who will tell you that they do not believe in the Torah as a literal book. You can scream til the cows come home that I'm wrong, and you have that right but it only highlights the narrowness of your beliefs. I accept that many Jews believe in the divinity and literalness of the books and many more see them as metaphor, though it is something we seek to teach and to guide us.


Narrowness of my beliefs? LOL! I am not the one who rejects Torah as HaShem's true and only Word! You have no idea what I believe; you just make these broad assumptions because your faith is so fragile that you get completely bent out of shape if someone tries to convert you, and you build a wall of lies and declare that everything outside of that wall is done personally as a hostile act against you.

You are presenting yourself as a joke, and you definitely are not some self-appointed ambassador for Judaism. You act like a typical Abe Foxman nut job, getting offended at anything and everything when someone talks about or merely mentions something that you don't believe in.

So those who are curious Christians about Judaism should understand that batya is not speaking for all of us Torah Jews. She speaks for herself, and her hatred and segregationist ways where she puts everyone's beliefs into little convenient labels/boxes so she can rail against you are hers and hers alone.


In just a couple years I will be president of my Conservative congregation of 500+ families. I find it hard to believe that I am unfamiliar with Jews and Judaism.


Are you going to give them your little speech about how you believe it is okay for Jews to become atheists and reject Judaism? Let me know how that goes over with your rabbi.


I chant Torah from the Hebrew and trope alone and have been reading Hebrew since I was about 5.


How did you manage to do that for that long and completely skip over Leviticus 18:19? Or do you just chant/read without understanding?


I'd love to hear your pedigree and how you come by this higher knowledge. I find your posts on Judaism and your affectations about it very strange.


Of course if you don't believe in it yourself, you will find the words of someone who believes Torah IS HaShem's Word strange to you. That is my pedigree, and the only one that matters to HaShem.


To say Jews do not like evangelism b/c our faith is week sounds like a catchphrase for Jews for Jesus.


Are you again making another false assumption? I reject Christ as the Mashiach. I don't take any of the NT seriously, because most of it directly conflicts with the Torah, which we established is G-d's word. See, once you mess with that one little factoid in Judaism, you open up a whole can of worms. Reform, Conservative, even Orthodox Judaism hasn't solved the issue of Jews flat out rejecting Torah. They don't grow Judaism's acceptance among Jews. Instead, some Jews preach to other Jews to reject the Torah, as you did in this thread. But hey, as long as the temple gets 10% of a person's income, who cares?

There is a huge definition difference between "literal" and "divinity," except of course, when you willingly and deliberately confuse the two.

You just keep going on with your false assumptions and labels instead of... oh I don't know... maybe ASKING the person? You'll never do that, while I continue to believe in actual Judaism the same way it was taught long before your Conservative/Reform movement. And that is about paying more attention to Jews reading Torah rather than what some Gentiles are preaching.

Honey, one day you might figure out what I mean when I say you are the Jew for Jesus. Until then, you are just another loudmouth yenta who looks for any excuse to cause artificial rifts among G-d fearing people.

lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

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Posted: 11/25/2012 1:26:50 AM
WTF?? what the HELL is wrong with you?


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 1:30:04 AM

Batya's, something that some might find "irreverent" is calling G-d fallible and saying He makes mistakes. That doesn't fall in line with either Old or New Testament teachings regarding the character of the Creator. Perhaps that part of your personal interpretation of G-d is what others are finding irreverent.


There is nothing in the Torah that supports batya's views.

And that line of thinking is a prime example of why some Jews turn away from Judaism. So stupid. They want individual spirituality that is right before their eyes in the Torah, but are fed a meal of empty Talmudic ritual mush instead.

See, I completely understand that when Christians preach JC, they think JC = HaShem. I don't agree with that, but I understand where they are coming from and it doesn't bother me.

On the other hand, some Talmudic Jews would absolutely lose it if they saw me eat a cheeseburger, and automatically assume I am Reform -- which rejects the Torah as HaShem's Word. I am not Reform.


A more public figure demonstrates it

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 1:58:45 AM


WTF?? what the HELL is wrong with you?



Apparently, I understand that Judaism doesn't accept atheism among Jews, nor does the Torah say that HaShem makes mistakes.

Please, I am not preaching that in order to be a real Jew, you must have two sinks in your kitchen and not eat cheeseburgers. You simply must accept the Torah is the Word of G-d. That is what makes you Jewish, not some freaking out if you chew a piece of gum or drive to a synogogue. You are an individual person, not part of some manmade regulated collective, and you have the mental capacity to interpret HaShem's Torah on your own.

Listen my son to the teaching of your father and do not abandon the Torah of your mother; because it is a beautiful wreath for your head and a necklace upon your throat (Prv 1,8-9)

In order for a Jew to become a Christian, they must abandon the Torah. Same for atheism, secularism, whatever ism you want to put there. If you do not believe the Torah is the Word of G-d, then you will be very vulnerable to conversion and lash out at any attempts to do so. So the antidote to conversion is always Torah.

So someone can preach to me until they are blue in the face about Christ, Mohammed, the Rebbe, whatever -- it does nothing. I can have respect for their faith and reverence to G-d, but I have Torah on my side. I can disprove any attempt to the contrary, and probably someone attempting to convert me will learn a thing or two not only about real Judaism, but most likely their own faith. Then we can laugh over a bagel.

Ad if a Jew doesn't believe the Torah is G-d's Word? They have nothing. No defense. Nothing. Their only course of action is to belittle and lash out at whoever is trying to convert them. They accuse, they whine, they claim religion is being shoved down their throat. Any excuse they can think of. They can't defend their empty, non-existent faith. If you don't believe me, then read the Torah. Same thing happened there.

And you call me nuts, while someone who thinks eating a cheeseburger is a grave sin against G-d but doesn't believe the Torah is divine, and then says it is deplorable for Christians to preach G-d. Please sell that hypocritical cray cray elsewhere.

Oops, did I just "shove my religion down your throat?"

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 5:44:25 AM

Even the Chief Rabbi in Israel told Orthodox Jews it was 'better not to pray on Yom Kippur than to pray with Reform Jews'...Oy Vey!


After the Passover seder I had last year with some Reform Jews, I have a tendency to agree with him when he said Reform and Conservative was outside Judaism. And I am not Orthodox.

batya
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Posted: 11/25/2012 5:57:05 AM
Sure. Why don't you share with us the type of Judaism to which you ascribe, please. You have piqued my curiosity since it doesn't fall under Reform, Conservative or Orthodox. You don't care about Kashrut so you are neither Hareidi/Hasid. You don't like labels so I would be surprised to learn you are reconstructionist, Jewish Renewal or new age kabballist since those are both labels. And I wouldn't peg you secular humanish Jewish b/c of our disdain for atheist Jews.

I am truly interested to know how you categorize yourself. And why you think I wouldn't ask, I don't know.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:04:13 AM
batya,

She's not worth it. She's looking for a fight and looking for a reaction. She was like this during the election and she's apparently like this about religion as well. Like skybar, she's the only one who could possibly be right about her religion. So don't bother. It's not worth the time or the effort. Even though I think she needs a good smack down.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:18:16 AM

Batya's, something that some might find "irreverent" is calling God fallible and saying He makes mistakes. That doesn't fall in line with either Old or New Testament teachings regarding the character of the Creator. Perhaps that part of your personal interpretation of God is what others are finding irreverent.


You're talking about OT/Torah teachings through a Christian lens. I'm talking about them through a Jewish lens.

Conservative Judaism-does not come down as a movement on the divinity of the Torah and leaves this open as it is the movement with the widest spectrum of varied views on many things

this is from the Core Values of Conservative Judaism by Ismar Schorsch 1995:


The Torah is the foundation text of Judaism, the apex of an inverted pyramid of infinite commentary, not because it is divine, but because it is sacred, that is, adopted by the Jewish people as its spiritual font. The term skirts the divisive and futile question of origins, the fetid swamp of heresy. The sense of individual obligation, of being commanded, does not derive from divine authorship, but communal consent.


Also from an article on Conservative Judaism:

Conservative Judaism does not necessarily consider portions of the halakha, and even Biblical law, as a direct record of Divine revelation. The CJLS has written that the Torah represents merely "the beginning of a relationship" rather than a final word and can be superseded by new understanding and new circumstances "as we mature".


I've studied Torah with a number of Rabbis for over 10 years and different adult students. Some believe G-d was perfect. Others not. I can't tell you about Christianity or Desertpea's brand of Judaism, not even knowing what that is, yet. I know Orthodox and Hasidic Jews would disagree. but I can tell you what I have come across over years in Conservative Judaism and that is that there are many varied views. That's all.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:20:08 AM
GC, I appreciate it. But now, curiosity has the best of me and I need to know what Judaism brought her to the point where these are her views. She told me I wouldn't ask and now I'm calling her bluff. I asked.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:22:57 AM

GC, I appreciate it. But now, curiosity has the best of me and I need to know what Judaism brought her to the point where these are her views. She told me I wouldn't ask and now I'm calling her bluff. I asked.
I'll admit. I'm curious as well. I'm just impressed that I can kind of keep up with what you're talking about. But ya, so not worth it.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:24:18 AM
Karaite Judaism. Very, very "old school."

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:27:00 AM

You act like a typical Abe Foxman nut job, getting offended at anything and everything when someone talks about or merely mentions something that you don't believe in.


For those of you not following, just FYI, Abe Foxman is the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League. An organization that not only stands up for the protection and rights of Jews, but of anyone being subjected to hatred and bigotry. I'm not sure how you can be against that, but somehow you are. And when I stated that all people, including atheists should be treated equally, you called me a segregationist with hatred? If only I stayed in the sciences to study brains.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:38:08 AM
I don't find public Nativity scenes and Christmas trees offensive. Nor do I get bent out of shape if someone talks about their Christian faith. So the intolerance problem isn't with me, it is really with...?

*passes out popcorn to the Catholic peas while batya googles Karaite Judaism*

batya
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:41:48 AM
Karaite. Ah. Alas you DO have a label.

You reject all oral Torah and any 'modern' (of the last thousands of years) Rabbinic teachings. You take an originalist meaning of the Torah the best you can of the times it was handed down.

And you actually have one of the NARROWEST views of Judaism available today, held by an extremely small minority-- so small that most Jews have never even encountered a Karaite Jew--narrower than even the most observant Orthodox Jew since you believe only the Torah in its original form, rejecting anything to expand on it or modify it from it's supposed original form bringing any of it into modern times. You consider yourself purist. You are also extremely defensive as evidenced from your posts here. There is nothing wrong with having that narrow view, but you are projecting when you tell me that my view is narrow when in fact Conservative Judaism has expanded its laws to be more inclusive, a tenet that you reject. And that's fine. But it doesn't make me narrow, but you.

So you reject the *Talmud,* the Oral Law, our Rabbinic tradition, which Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist and Hasidic Jews all accept, regardless of what else we disagree over. No wonder you have been so hostile to me as a Jew.

So, no. I am not ignorant as a Jew. Thankyouverymuch.



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:52:08 AM
Google? I've heard of Karaites. I'll admit, I've never come across one IRL or online just like I've never encountered a Samaritan or a Noachide. Doesn't mean I don't know you exist or what you are. Scratch that. I think years ago there was a Noachide pea.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.



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