The Jews!!/ My preacher is a fool: update in Op

Two Peas is Closing
Click here to visit our final product sale. Click here to visit our FAQ page regarding the closing of Two Peas.

Posted 11/20/2012 by smilesnpeacesigns in NSBR Board
< 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
 

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:19:06 PM
Thanks to Desertpea, I have been doing a little googling now. Of the term 'Talmudic Judaism' Which strangely does NOT pop up as the first 10-15 terms on google.

But when you find the sites that discuss this "Talmudic Judaism" term, they talk about whether Judaism is the real religion of the OT, how Judaism wants to destroy and take over Christianity and create a New World Order. It teaches that if your pastor wants to be politically rather than biblically correct -cue ominous music- SOMETHING IS WRONG!

Another site claims the "Talmud Jews" have been behind every mass murder and major war--including the Holocaust. This fascinating, sick stuff! That Jews who believe in the Talmud are satanists. No wonder Desertpea doesn't advertise her affiliation. A little google goes a long way!

Then it linked to a white supremacist/"Stormfront" organization that co-opted a legit Talmud article and there is in face, legal action against the group for this. Again, talking about 'Talmudic Judaism' and saying Jews DON'T believe int he Torah but the Talmud which is bizarre craziness. LOL! THAT is why she hates the Anti-defamation league and thinks Abe Foxman is a nutjob. B/c they come down on groups who propagate her lies. It is all coming together!!!

The fact that Desertpea is so disdainful of the oldest accepted version of Judaism today, the first monotheistic religion, and how she intimates that we don't want any outward expression of Christmas, etc or evangelicalism is now making a lot of sense! Desertpea, this has opened a whole world of sects, cult following and learning for me. So thank you! Wow.

Accuse me of ranting and hyperbole, but it's all right there on the sites I found. LOL! Every post you made is a rant and I will post links about your so-called Talmudic Judaism, a term YOU introduced me to. I am floored. This is not what I expected to find but it all makes sense and your posts are coming together.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 16,721
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:26:28 PM
I saved that interfaith marriage thread and just read it yesterday. So I didn't have any trouble finding the post you're talking about. Batya's post is third from the top

Nowhere in that post did Batya compare you or anyone else to a drug addict. In fact, she made a point of stating clearly that she didn't intend that at all.

You are grasping at straws. Please stop before you embarrass yourself further.

ETA oh hell, never mind, I am so far behind already.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



Sue_Pea
Old Pea Coven member wannabe

PeaNut 36,163
April 2002
Posts: 10,494
Layouts: 5
Loc: here, there and everywhere

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:27:52 PM



Desert pea, what is your purpose on this thread? Or this board for that matter? Do you just like to argue? You don't participate in the community except on political or religious threads, you insult everyone who disagrees with you and you do a piss poor job of communicating your politics or faith in a way that makes anyone want to understand either. So what's the point, just to argue as long as someone will engage you?








I was wondering the same thing. It's really not much of an honor to be the Don Rickles of Pealand-minus the humor, of course.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:33:18 PM

I-95-I wouldn't talk to desertpea about the karaite synagogue. She herself doesn't believe in them having synagogues, only the original temple that was destroyed.


Thanks for looking out for me, Batya, and yes, I do believe I read where DesertPea said that. I happened to be on chat with my husband at the time so I asked him about the Karaites. He told me about the Synagogue in Ramala, and asked if I wanted to go see it next time we were down that way.

I'm just curious about all aspects of Judaism. However, on another thread we all freaked at the very idea that Jews proselytize...on one of my recent flights back to Israel the flight was very full. The two seats next to me were vacant. I noticed two Ultra Orthodox Jews gesturing and talking to the flight attendant. I immediately knew they were assigned to sit next to me, but didn't want to, however, there was nowhere else to sit. Knowing they were not supposed to even speak to me, I engaged them in conversation . I revealed I was a Catholic, married to a Jew, and they spent the next 11 hours telling me I needed to convert, and offering me contacts in Jerusalem where I could do so...along with my Conservative Jewish DH.... It was an interesting, and informative 11 hours

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:49:05 PM
Batya, you are batshit cray cray if you think I'm a white supremacist. I am a born Jew who believes Torah is the word of G-d just like an Orthodox Jew, but I don't believe the Talmud is divinely inspired.

Your conspiracy theories are so beyond nuts at this point. Next you'll say the Lubbavich who believe the Rebbe was the Mashiach are really a bunch of Nazis disguised as Jews.

Sigh. The extremes people go to in order to justify their point.

katybee8
No matter where you go, there you are!

PeaNut 421,136
April 2009
Posts: 5,255
Layouts: 8
Loc: Chicago NW burbs

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:53:46 PM
Batya

The argument about Jews being G-d chosen people doesn't carry a lot weight with me. It only means we were chosen to be gifted the Torah. It doesn't mean we are better than anyone else or should be treated differently from anyone else.

So when people say you shouldn't proselytize to Jews b/c we're 'chosen' but should to other religions, I don't look at you with more respect and I'm not more thankful b/c I think you should respect everyone and leave them all to their own beliefs regardless of your thoughts regarding those beliefs.


I'm just telling you what I was taught, not what I believe. I'm an atheist and respect everyone's right to religion (or not).

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 1:59:01 PM
I googled the terms YOU are using. Talmudic Judaism. That is what I turned up. If you are not a part of that, I am relieved. Though it is suspect that a Jew is against the work of the Anti-Defmation League. In fact there are many non-Jews who support their work against bigotry and hatred, many right here on this board. They fight hate, bigotry and prejudice. I am suspect against anyone who is against their mission.

You posted very hateful things about me, Jews who don't ascribe to your views and I connected the dots. If I am wrong, then I am. You present yourself a certain way and people will make judgments based on the way you present yourself.

Either you would comeback with arrogant defensiveness or vehement denial. I hope your denial is genuine. But your term, Talmudic Judaism, of which I've never heard, b/c to millions of Jews worldwide there is no such thing and it is an interpretation based only upon your own beliefs, opened a new door for me to learn about the disdain people like you and others feel for the millions of mainstream Jews worldwide. Whether you accept it or not, you practice an extremist, fundamentalist brand of what you call Judaism.

As an individual, you also misread and misunderstand simple statements. Unless you want to be likened to drug addicts, I said I could never marry a person whose values do not align with mine. That would include all sorts or people. And then I listed people whose values don't align with mine. For some reason you internalized that and decided desertpea=drug addict. Your mind works in mysterious ways and clearly I am not the only pea who thinks so.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:01:50 PM

I'm just telling you what I was taught, not what I believe. I'm an atheist and respect everyone's right to religion (or not).


I know! I just feel badly when people say that b/c some people get carried away with the chosenness and use it to subjugate others.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




tenacious *e*
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

PeaNut 56,147
November 2002
Posts: 7,864
Layouts: 34
Loc: back in the USA

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:06:36 PM
just popping in to say that to spite the over all tone, this has been a fascinating thread on the subject of judaism.

thanks to those who are taking the time to 'discuss.'

i know sometimes when i participate in the LDS threads i have to wonder if it is just boring and irrelevant to many, but, i personally find it very interesting to learn about other people's faith.

erin





desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:06:59 PM
You've gone off to the point of no return. I refuse to discuss Judaism with someone who likens my Jewish beliefs to monsters who killed off huge portions of my family tree in the Holocaust, or Christian Identity thugs.

You disgust me.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

PeaNut 174,150
October 2004
Posts: 15,754
Layouts: 0

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:11:28 PM
Desertpea, you need to look in the mirror, the only one being offensive and twisting words is you.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:12:47 PM
Erin-I love the LDS threads.

Desert-You know full well you have nothing to say about my ADL comments b/c you can't. You called people who oppose hatred and bigotry nutjobs. You are agreeing to let that stand on its own and I think you for that. It only helps me.

You can't deny that you are an extremist fundamentalist and every Jewish pea would come here and agree with me, as well. Some already have. So thank you for acquiescing on that point as well.

Once you blasphemed my beliefs, I knew to no longer take you seriously. I am only posting for those reading, to let them know that you are a fringe element and not to encourage them to believe you represent mainstream Judaism in the US or the world today. And that covers the most liberal unobservant reform Jew to the most right wing Haredi. You are the fringe of the fringe. I no longer posted to convince you of anything.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:21:08 PM
Batya, walk away from the computer for a few hours. Seriously. You crossed the line.

*maureen*
Bad Wolf

PeaNut 191,892
February 2005
Posts: 6,033
Layouts: 0
Loc: Wheaton

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:21:55 PM

Batya, walk away from the computer for a few hours. Seriously. You crossed the line.



Ha! Irony Alert!

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

PeaNut 174,150
October 2004
Posts: 15,754
Layouts: 0

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:25:56 PM

Batya, walk away from the computer for a few hours. Seriously. You crossed the line.


Ha! Irony Alert!


Delusional for sure.



lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 16,721
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:30:18 PM
There are not enough eye roll smilies to express my feelings about desertpea at the moment.



LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



Sarah*H
Bring me that horizon!

PeaNut 239,162
December 2005
Posts: 29,196
Layouts: 417
Loc: The final frontier

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:36:12 PM

Batya, walk away from the computer for a few hours. Seriously. You crossed the line.


Honest question: do you think you come across here as rational, dispassionate or logical?

Batya crossed no line. You appear to be unbalanced and incapable of basic reading comprehension.



obliolait
PeaAddict

PeaNut 550,788
April 2012
Posts: 1,482
Layouts: 0

Posted: 11/25/2012 2:37:41 PM
Is DesertPea's the path to heaven?

LOL

Artbabe
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 428,650
July 2009
Posts: 2,371
Layouts: 0
Loc: Columbus, Ohio

Posted: 11/25/2012 3:12:18 PM
Seriously, DesertPea. Do you think those of us reading this thread are reading your posts and thinking "wow, DesertPea is really convincing me with her rational respectful arguments?"

Because I'm reading your posts and thinking "DesertPea = cray cray".


Tracy

I put my heart and soul into my work, & have lost my mind in the process. Vincent van Gogh

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:05:15 PM
1. ADL

I think Abe Foxman is like the Jewish version of the Westboro Baptist Church. He gets offended at everything for silly reasons, and quite frankly as a Jew, I get embarassed by him. He hurts and doesn't help interfaith relations. I am sure there are Baptists on this board who will completely agree the Westboro Baptist Church nut jobs do not represent their religion. Apparently, HEEB Magazine and Jewlicious are fronts for the Aryan movement, according to Batya. You should probably go post a comment there informing these Jewish blogs what their real intent is. Let me know how that works out.

2. Talmudic / Rabbinite Jews Terminology

I have no idea why Christian Identity / Aryan movements hijacked terminology used by Jews for their own purposes. I learned the term from Karaite texts like this one which use those terms to differentiate between Karaite beliefs and those who believe in the Talmud or follow rabbinical law. Also, common Jewish websites like this one use similar terminology when they discuss Karaites. I guess they must be Aryan too!

I do not follow man made Jewish religious law, as most secular Jews do not. On the flip side, I believe the Torah is divine, as most Orthodox sects do. The only book that matters to my faith is the Torah -- that's it. You can't preach NT to me successfully, nor can you convince me to adhere to the Talmud.

When I say the Sh'ma, I mean it. When HaShem said no one would come before him, I believe he meant it.

Reform and Conservative Judaism are completely devoid of spirituality for me. Some people want that cultural ritualistic way of living that can change based on what their Rabbi says, but I do not. There is nothing in between or dictating my personal relationship with HaShem.

The are some Orthodox sects that scream Torah. Others believe woman should be separate from men, or that the Mashiach already came and died in Brooklyn not too long ago. There are some who believe as a married Jewish woman, I must cut my hair and wear a wig. I don't subscribe to any of those because I cannot find any justification for it in the Torah, nor do I believe in strict literal interpretation.

Reform Judaism says almost the same thing, except they use what I believe to be a false excuse to justify their non-observance. Reconstructionist is too out there for me. Conservative Judaism is simply more focused on the Talmud, but as was demonstrated, I cannot rationalize a non-divine Torah with Talmudic ritual.

If I did not find and learn about Karaite Judaism, then I probably would've been a good candidate for conversion or remained secular because absolutely nothing out there provided what I was seeking. Instead, I can now discuss and debate Torah with other Jews who believe the same.

And I no longer feel outside Judaism as I did when reform, conservative, or secular. You can call me fundamentalist extremist or whatever label, but you will be hard pressed to discern a Karaite Jew from any other normally dressed person in a crowd, so good luck with that. The only way you will know the difference is maybe a blue string in a tallit or most likely by talking with one of us. We have no rabbis in the traditional sense, as we are all scholars. Some more than others. Some women, as it was the first movement to treat women equally.

It is not for every Jew. Some Jews will never, ever accept the Torah as divine. They are outside of Judaism as far as I am concerned.

--

I see a few pops from Peas who got into heated political debate with me who just cannot switch out of hate mode. You won election, move on. As for batya's comments before her false accusation of me being some white supremist, that is for her to explain. Although I highly disagree with many peas political leanings, I would never, ever even remotely think it was good debate form to denigrate them like that even with an afterthought caveat. Nor do I subscribe to conspiracy theories that seem to run rampant on this board. I still support this business by buying products they sell, so I have the same right as anyone else to post here and GS.

As for "forcing belief" -- please name a pea in this thread that has held a gun to your head and forced you to convert or die. No one has. No one will. We have freedom of religion in this country, and I will defend to the end srappower's right to practice hers, or the OPs right to practice hers, or for people not to practice at all. That is not what this thread is about. It is about Christians and Jews and conversion. If you cannot take discussions of faith, then maybe you shouldn't read those threads.

My concern is and will remain Judaism, but I respect Christians and those who practice monotheism of any faith to talk about it here. They are not forcing you to believe anything because you possess free will.

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

PeaNut 416,788
March 2009
Posts: 22,257
Layouts: 0
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World, again.

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:15:44 PM

I've never heard of most of this about Judaism, so the entire thread has been fascinating.

DesertPea said she and other Karaites believe the Torah is divinely inspired and supercedes all else. Batya said that the Torah is God-inspired.

Correct?




If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:28:19 PM
One correction: Karaites believe the same thing as most Orthodox sects -- that the Torah is divine, G-d's word.

Not divinely inspired.

"I AM LORD" = HaShem

I don't believe in Oral or Rabbincal Law. I believe G-d wrote the Torah, gave it to Moses, he gives a copy to each of the tribes of Israel, puts one in the Ark of the Covenant just in case someone tries to change it, and the rest is history.

You believe the Torah is the Word of G-d, or you don't.

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

PeaNut 416,788
March 2009
Posts: 22,257
Layouts: 0
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World, again.

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:33:20 PM
Got it.


It's the same argument with the Bible.


ETA - oops, wrote that before your addition. I never heard of God writing the Torah, just the 10 Commandments.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:44:59 PM

ADL

I think Abe Foxman is like the Jewish version of the Westboro Baptist Church.


OK everyone. Desertpea said that Abe Foxman, National director of the nationally respected and recognized Anti-Defamtion League is the Jewish Version of the Westboro Baptist Church. I'll leave that to stand on its own so everyone can digest your full meaning.

Next, there is no Orthodox Jew on earth who is not part of a fringe sect that will agree that their beliefs are the same as a Karaite since you reject and denounce their teachings. You want to legitimize yourself by glomming onto their recognized denomination, but it won't work. It's disingenuous.

The rest, slam me. I have a thick skin. I don't care one iota. Lie about me on the intrawebs. I'm sure I'll be ok. I have Ha-shem on my side.

ETA: Literally, HaShem actually means 'the name" if you know your Hebrew and it refers to G-d.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 4:54:14 PM
What is different is that I believe that is it, and all should read the Torah and figure out what it means for themselves.

Other Jewish sects or movements rely on rabbinical interpretation or Oral Law. That's man made.

Man made is not HaShem made. He was pretty clear in the Torah there were to be no more books, and we weren't supposed to mess with it because ta da! That is where the trouble started.

Someone is going to jump down my throat about it, but screw it, I already got called a Nazi: some could say JC was really a Karaite, but he totally went off track and started contradicting the Torah, which is definitely not Karaite. So if Skybar says she converted Jews by witnessing the Torah to those who don't believe the Torah is divine, I can see how the conversion happened, which makes me sad when I think about it.

So you see now why I believe true Judaism is when you believe the Torah is really G-d's written word. You have no chance of being converted. It is a core, fundamental belief of Judaism long before the rabbis got together and "canonized" oral law. I could never reconcile those two parts together because there was too much conflict about it in the Torah.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:00:34 PM

all should read the Torah and figure out what it means for themselves.


I do this every week. And then some. You clearly have been drinking a heaping helping about whatever kool aid THEY have been feeding you about mainstream Judaism. In fact we are encouraged to interpret for ourselves and read it anew every year. When the shma says teach it to your children, I teach my children to read it, learn it and interpret it for themselves, as well.

True Judaism? Me thinks thou dost protest too much and only an insecure person would do so. If it's so true, you wouldn't have to say so every other post. Are you trying to convince the peas or yourself?


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:13:35 PM

OK everyone. Desertpea said that Abe Foxman, National director of the nationally respected and recognized Anti-Defamtion League is the Jewish Version of the Westboro Baptist Church. I'll leave that to stand on its own so everyone can digest your full meaning.


He is an embarrassment to American Jewry. Did you even bother to read the links on those Jewish blogs? I guess not, so here is one of them:


Our friends at the ADL, a shrill and unreasonable “defense” organization that gets offended in the name of anything, have endorsed a campaign to please stop calling them “retarded.”

We had no idea this was hurting their feelings, which is unfortunate, because we have been calling them “retarded” for almost ten years.

They prefer we call them “awesome,” but that is so not happening.

We will settle on “special,” except for Abe Foxman himself.

Foxman is fucking retarded.




You want more comparisons? He like our Al Sharpton back in his Tawana Brawley days. You can think he is some righteous dude all you want, but I agree with Heeb Magazine that he and his "I think that might kinda sorta maybe evoke anti-Semitic feelings if you print/produce/sell whatever I have my feathers all ruffled up about according to the current wind speed" is a wacko in the highest degree. He may be right once in awhile, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. He is the Chicken Little of anti-semetism. But you rock on with your support of him.


Next, there is no Orthodox Jew on earth who is not part of a fringe sect that will agree that their beliefs are the same as a Karaite since you reject and denounce their teachings.


If they believe in the divine Torah, then we have that in common, which is more than you have in common with them. You reject the Rebbe was the Mashiach, right?

I explained my faith. You explained yours. Mine is not declared outside of Judaism by the Orthodox rabbinical council of Israel. You should explain why yours is.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:18:43 PM
OK, so DesertPea doesn't believe the same things Batya believes....it still makes you both Jews. I guess if you agreed, you'd belong to the same sect.

I took conversion classes a couple of times...not to convert, just to learn more. I happened, on the last occasion, to sign up for classes at the local Reform shul. Having been around Jews long enough to know they argue about everything, I questioned a lot of things the Rabbi said. It became a standing joke in class that whenever I asked a question, the Rabbi would turn and say 'Did you want to do an Orthodox conversion, or learn how Reform Jews do things?'

Having grown up in a religious Catholic home, and had an Orthodox Rabbi's wife as my BFF for 25 years, I have to admit that at times I was surprised at the take the Reform Jews have on things....but all in all, I found them a concerned, respectful, loving congregation, and completely respect their commitment to their faith....but they remind me of Smorgasbord Catholics....

Anyway, I don't think either Batya, or DesertPea are batshit crazy, y'all just observe differently, so be nice to each other...as you are commanded by your religion.

WingNut
Best Cat Evahhh!

PeaNut 18,741
July 2001
Posts: 14,109
Layouts: 200
Loc: Maryland

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:31:42 PM
{{{{{ hugs OP }}}}


Joy


batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:41:25 PM
I accept that Desertpea can believe as she wishes. Unfortunately she is telling me I am not a real Jew. I never said the same about her. There is only one of us here being unkind.

As a rule, I stand up for everyone, Jew or not, on this board and IRL. I'd rather be an ambassador for my 'fake' brand of Judaism over her "true" kind any day. Like moveablefeast, I go out and live my faith and lead by example. If Desert wants to manipulate what I've said and pound people over the head, so be it. Skybar operates on this board the same way and instead of endearing people to her faith, she has turned off many people.






OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 5:57:44 PM
Batya, you've been around long enough for folks to know you walk the walk, no matter who says what about your faith.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 6:07:42 PM


No batya, I don't say it to reaffirm my faith. I showed I can calmly and rationally describe what my process was and what my feelings were about a very personal subject after I was essentially called a masquerading Nazi.

You need to learn the difference between Jew and JudaISM.

I never said you weren't a real Jew. Please point that out where I did. I'll wait.

You are a Jew. I am a Jew. I believe your particular version of JudaISM is outside of JudaISM for the same exact reason the Orthodox rabbinical council of Israel does. Conservative conversions are not recognized. Reform and Reconstructionist aren't either. Why?

You view attempts to convert you as an attack. I say "bring it on!" because I don't view Christians or their teachings as a threat.

You don't want Jews to evangelize to secular, non-practicing, atheist, agnostic, whatever Jews. I say that conflicts hardcore with the Torah, and if you want Mashiach, then start bringing people in the fold. It isn't a numbers competition of who gets how many either -- we all win.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 6:21:46 PM

Conservative conversions are not recognized. Reform and Reconstructionist aren't either.


They are according to the State of Israel....but then again, the Rabbinical Council doesn't and never will. However, under the Law of Return, their conversions HAVE to be recognized.

Fraidyscrapper
She calls me a Fun Sucker

PeaNut 38,100
May 2002
Posts: 13,565
Layouts: 0
Loc: Jersey Strong

Posted: 11/25/2012 6:34:06 PM
Desert, you have not seen one person on this thread affirm your perception of your rhetoric as either rational or calm. Perhaps it sounds that way when you think it, but it's off in written expression, I don't know.


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
Uploaded with iPhone client

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 6:44:48 PM

Having grown up in a religious Catholic home, and had an Orthodox Rabbi's wife as my BFF for 25 years, I have to admit that at times I was surprised at the take the Reform Jews have on things....but all in all, I found them a concerned, respectful, loving congregation, and completely respect their commitment to their faith....but they remind me of Smorgasbord Catholics....


I enjoyed your post. And yeah, I sort of agree. They just kept changing stuff, and that just did not sit well with me.

I went to a Passover Seder at a Reform synogogue. For non-Jews: Passover and how to obserbe it is plainly laid out in the Torah. It is probably the worst holy day you can mess around with. There were two cups on the table.

Me: Why are there two cups for Elijah?

Them: Oh, those aren't both for Elijah. One is for him, the other for Miriam.

Me: Miriam?

Them: Yes, to symbolize acceptance of LGBT Jews.

Okay, here is where I'll say LGBT Jews are Jews, it is none of my business, it is between them and G-d, and I do not judge. Let's get that out of the way.

I have never seen a holy observance ever change to commemorate anything.

Me: But only the cup for Elijah is supposed to be out.

Them: Yes, but we changed it to celebrate LGBT Jews.

Me: Is that in the Torah?

Them: No.

Me: Is that in the Talmud?

Them: No.

Me: So why are you putting two cups on the table again?

Them: We're Reform.

Me: You made it up.

Them: We're Reform.

The Rabbi could have just said something nice during or after the service, and truly treated them like equals, but they just HAD to change the Seder setup because they CAN. Nothing was sacred.

It just got to me. If you could change so much about your faith, then whatis the point? There is no rock or connection or even steady ritual.

So the joke is people are Reform because Conservative services are an hour longer. Jews have been around for thousands of years, doing the same thing, and then we decided to collectively throw that out the window and start making up our own stuff. Why? To bring people back into the fold. How exactly has that worked out?

It just did not make any sense to me after awhile. I couldn't even rely on my faith's beliefs to stay steady for a few months at one point! First against gay marriage, but then not against gays, then it flipped around, then finally oth. And no one referred to Torah. It was just getting stupid. Pick something and stay with it. Just pick any subject imaginable, and they would change their minds constantly no matter what.

The concept of the Torah as some living, breathing document hat you could change r ignore at will seemed to me to be a little overthe top.



I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 6:51:29 PM
LOL!! Did they have an orange on the plate too? That one threw me for a loop.

Fraidyscrapper
She calls me a Fun Sucker

PeaNut 38,100
May 2002
Posts: 13,565
Layouts: 0
Loc: Jersey Strong

Posted: 11/25/2012 7:06:33 PM
So desertpea, the reform tradition does not feed your soul - it's not your path. Everyone is cool with that. I am glad that you have found a way to serve God that fuels your faith.

But we have a tradition here of a select group of posters who tell others that their faith traditions are dead. That there is no way you can follow that path and meet God there.

If that is what you believe, if that's your goal, then you are accomplishing your goal. If not, then your presentation needs some work.

Your call.


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
Uploaded with iPhone client

kshenkar
PeaAddict

PeaNut 429,395
July 2009
Posts: 1,533
Layouts: 291

Posted: 11/25/2012 7:22:30 PM
All I can say is that my impression of Karaites, whenever I stopped to consider them, has gotten--wierder?

And as to this:



Other Jewish sects or movements rely on rabbinical interpretation or Oral Law. That's man made.




A lot of people may not realize that Judaism has both a written canon (the Torah) and an oral tradition, and they are heavily intertwined. The fact that the oral tradition is man made is kind of the point--it is what allows us to keep the Torah and our traditions in an ever-changing world.

This is a random example, but I think it gives an interesting insight into how Talmud and oral Torah work. There was a case years ago when an Orthodox couple had Siamese twins and had to decide whether to separate them (a surgery that would kill one child) or not separate them (which would lead to both children dying). The most well-respected rabbis in Jewish medical ethics researched the issue, and looked at stories in the Talmud of cities under siege and wartime scenarios, and applied the thinking in those stories in the Talmud to the situation with the twins, and made a call from there on what the Torah-true answer to the question was. That tradition of interpretation is how we figure out how to live as Jews, keep kosher, keep Shabbos, etc, in a world that doesn't look much like Old Testament days.

Not sure if that makes total sense, but I wanted to give a shot at explaining it



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 7:45:40 PM
sigh. Mrs. T, it is against every single Jewish teaching and even Desertpea and I can agree on this that you can be Jewish theologically and believe in Christ. If you want to be Christian and practice Jewish rituals, have at it. But you are not a Jew. If I want to believe in Christ as the Savior, how would you like it if I go around calling myself a Christian Muslim? Or if I call myself a Christian but believe in Allah and say that Mohammed is my prophet, though I still have a Christmas tree and observe all the Christian holidays? Sounds ok, right? Since you think your cousins are Jewish. Albeit 'Messianic Jews."

As for Desertpea attending someone's seder and challenging their beliefs I think that is as rude as I've ever heard. You were a guest. You can believe differently but enjoy their celebration for what it was. Like I've gone to Catholic Masses or Orthodox Bar Mitzvahs, etc.



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 16,721
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne

Posted: 11/25/2012 7:47:53 PM

Kind of like how you told me my cousins, who are Jewish by ethnicity and still celebrate that part of their culture but believe Christ is the Messiah, aren't real Jews? Sadly, this kind of thing happens between Christians all the time. I'm on my aunt's prayer list to "come to the true faith" because I'm not Catholic. Sure, Dessertpea isn't going to win you over with her tactics. But this argument is nothing new between peas- just happens to be between Jews instead of Christians this go round.

After all this discussion and all these years, do you still not see the difference between (1) Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah and thereby de facto give up their Jewish identification, even if they wish to retain their Jewish culture; and (2) one practicing Jew telling another practicing Jew that her form of Judaism doesn't qualify, isn't "good enough"?

Haven't you ever been secretly appalled when Skybar told some more liberal Christian that her Christianity isn't good enough? That is exactly what desertpea is doing to Batya and all the rest of us here.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 8:09:27 PM

Haven't you ever been secretly appalled when Skybar told some more liberal Christian that her Christianity isn't good enough? That is exactly what desertpea is doing to Batya and all the rest of us here.


I'm not about to say anyone is right, or wrong, but aren't Skybar, and/or DesertPea saying that practices and beliefs anyone hold are not good enough for THEM (as in Skybar and DesertPea) rather than saying that what Batya or any other Christian practices are wrong for those who practice them?

When it gets down to it, if there is a God, then G-d will decide who is right, and who is wrong. What difference does it make to me, or anyone else, if Reform Jews wish to acknowledge Miriam at their women's seder, or whether DesertPea wants to slaughter a lamb if she believes that's what HaShem wants her to do? I disagree with anyone, telling anyone else, they're going to go to hell just because their practices are different....to the best of my knowledge, none of us is the Almighty.

I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 8:14:30 PM
Every religion has sects that practice/believe things that go outside the accepted form of their religion in today's world.

We have Pat Robertson telling people that God brought Katrina to punish Christians.

We have Islamic sects wanting to kill anyone who doesn't follow Mohammed.

We have the Chief Rabbi in Israel refusing to acknowledge Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Rabbis.

...and we wonder why people turn away from organized religion....

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 9:50:47 PM

DesertPea saying that practices and beliefs anyone hold are not good enough for THEM (as in Skybar and DesertPea) rather than saying that what Batya or any other Christian practices are wrong for those who practice them?


Actually, no. That's not what she was saying. She was insulting, denigrating and I was told my views are wrong:


desertpea
PeaAddict

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 1,708
Layouts: 41
Loc: NV



Posted: 11/24/2012 9:50:36 PM
You have an extremely narrow and largely incorrect view of Jews and Judaism.



Then she said


I am not the one who rejects Torah
intimating I do.

Then she said


when I say you are the Jew for Jesus.


Then

Jews like batya get bent out of shape over any religious discussion. They reject the Torah


I-95, you don't think this is beyond the pale? Really? To say I rejected Torah? Is this the same as saying my practice is not right "for her?" C'mon. That's like telling a Christian they spit on Christ and don't accept him as savior. I have a thick skin and her rants mean nothing to me so I dismiss them.

But for someone so level-headed as you to come and say it's just her saying we have different ways of worship and our comments were on the same plane? You have to see that's not true. She called me a 'Jew for Jesus', that I am incorrect re: Judaism, not just believing differently and reject Torah. I know she's doing it to push my buttons, so I'm not wigging out b/c it's so ludicrous it's sad, but you know better than to validate and legitimize her.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 9:56:10 PM
Batya, don't pull quotes out of context to create a false point.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:00:31 PM
It's all right here on the thread for her to go back and read. I was compiling them in one place. Defensive much? There's nothing to worry about IF there's nothing to worry about.

You clearly said I reject Torah. You clearly said I was a Jew for Jesus in your opinion. You said what you said. I stand behind what I say. You should own what you say.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:07:50 PM


I-95, you don't think this is beyond the pale? Really? To say I rejected Torah?


<sigh> Yes.

I was just trying to find some middle ground

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:14:31 PM
I said you reject the divinity of Torah. Which is true.

I said you were a Jew For Jesus as a metaphor, in response to you saying I was, and after I explained I rejected JC and the NT. People can read the original post for complete context.

I believe the lack of a divine Torah creates a breeding ground for conversion, atheism, secularism, etc. if you want me to explain it again, then ask.


I was just trying to find some middle ground


A++ for effort.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 32,845
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:17:51 PM
Mrs. T, I understand the comparison you were trying to make but I don't think it was valid and I explained why. No harm, no foul. And no, you never told me I was on a hot rod to hell, so I appreciate that.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 20,385
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:28:36 PM

A++ for effort.


I try

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 359,474
January 2008
Posts: 2,829
Layouts: 41
Loc: Moving!

Posted: 11/25/2012 10:29:27 PM

You say my cousins can't be Jewish because they accept Jesus as the Messiah and it is the belief that the Messiah has NOT yet come that is essential to Judaism


I'm going to disagree with that second premise. There are Jews who believe a rabbi who died not too long ago was the Mashiach. They don't cease being Jewish because of this belief.

Your cousins are technically Jews who broke covenant with HaShem. They don't practice Judaism. Same thing goes for Jews who are atheist. They don't have to convert back if they choose to practice Judaism one day. I would consider them Jews but not Jewish (or their faith instead), which I know is clear as mud.

The opinion of man of your cousins doesn't mean squat either.
< 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Show/Hide Icons . Show/Hide Signatures
Hide
{{ title }}
{{ icon }}
{{ body }}
{{ footer }}