The Jews!!/ My preacher is a fool: update in Op
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 11/20/2012 by smilesnpeacesigns in NSBR Board
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desertpea
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Posted: 11/25/2012 10:41:21 PM

We have the Chief Rabbi in Israel refusing to acknowledge Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Rabbis.


The issue isn't that he does this. The issue we should discuss is WHY he does it.

He said that in I think 1997, and it was because all those movements reject the divinity of the Torah. That was his rationalization of the "they are outside Judaism" statement.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/25/2012 10:48:44 PM
Yikes, I go away for a few days and look what I come back to....

Too exhausted and too disgusted to comb my way back through this thread and respond to everything. Suffice it to say that I consider myself an observant Reform Jew---I teach in the religious school, teach Hebrew, study and chant Torah, etc.--and although I do not belong to the same branch of Judaism as Batya, I support and agree with absolutely everything she has said here.

I have no problem whatsoever with Desertpea believing or practicing any way that she wants. But it is deeply offensive to me to her her say that I have rejected Torah and that my branch of Judaism is narrow minded. Deeply offensive.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/25/2012 10:53:09 PM
Unfortunately, that is not what I said. I said specifically the Reform movement rejects the Torah is divine:


Reform, and a good chunk of Conservative synogogues reject the fact that the Torah was written by G-d. You posted it yourself for the Conservative Union, and I gave you the Union for Reform Judaism link that specifically says the Reform movement believes the Torah was divinely inspired.

In the Torah itself, it does not say that. It says the exact opposite. The only difference between me and an Orthodox Jew is that I don't do the Talmud thing. So again, you post like I said something I did not and rail against it.

Jews who convert to Christianity, Islam, etc. reject the Torah's divinity in order to convert. Atheists do as well.


About 80 times. Batya likes to just paste half the quote; it is dishonest debate designed to start a flame war. And she also accuse Jew who lost half family in Holocaust of being a white supremacist because of how things appear on her Google search and I'm not a fan of Abe Foxman's chicken little approach of branding everything anti-semetic. Still hasn't apologized for that; I don't think she ever will.

So, for catch up:

Reform: divine inspired Torah; sometimes believes in Oral Law

conservative: divine inspired Torah: believes in Oral Law

Orthodox: divine Torah; divine Oral Law

Karaite Judaism: divine Torah; doesn't believe in Oral Law

Let me know is anything is falsely represented.

cycworker
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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:11:16 PM

I'm not about to say anyone is right, or wrong, but aren't Skybar, and/or DesertPea saying that practices and beliefs anyone hold are not good enough for THEM (as in Skybar and DesertPea) rather than saying that what Batya or any other Christian practices are wrong for those who practice them?



No. Skybar has point blank said, on more than one occassion, that I am LYING when I call myself a Christian because I don't read the Bible the same way she does. She fundamentally makes it clear that I should be forbidden from calling myself a Christian. That's not the same as saying we have theological disagreements.


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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:12:24 PM
I've lost track of the discussion, just posting because I read the OP's update... Wanted to send you love and prayers and support for what you're going through... You listened to your heart, to what God is moving you to do and that's beautiful... I hope you can find a church where you feel inspired and supported very soon


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mamashosh
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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:22:16 PM



. You simply must accept the Torah is the Word of G-d. That is what makes you Jewish,


How dare you tell me that I am not Jewish.



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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:24:44 PM
Oh Smiles, that was a hard decision for you to make. {{{hugs}}}

Is it possible that this man will be moving on soon to another church? I've seen churches change with the changing of ministers time and again, so it's not an unrealistic question.




If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:38:01 PM

That's not the same as saying we have theological disagreements


Wow, cycworker and I actually agree on something. Stop the presses!


How dare you tell me that I am not Jewish.


You're a Jew. I have no idea what you personally believe, nor am I going to judge you for it. you have free will. Don't take stuff out of context.

But I agree with the High Rabbi of Israel (again, let me stress that I don't think there should be a High Rabbi of Israel, as that isn't in the Torah) that the Reform movement is "outside of Judaism." Any movement that rejects the divinity of the Torah lacks spirituality, in my personal opinion.

You probably have several reasons why you don't like my flavor of Judaism, and can rationally explain why it isn't for you. I don't take it personally, nor do I get offended.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/25/2012 11:56:59 PM

Don't take stuff out of context.


That seems to be your mantra--you can say anything you want and then when you are directly quoted on it, you say it was taken out of context. Not buying it.

And cycworker--I think Desertpea is being EXACTLY like Skybar, saying that my kind of Judaism is outside Judaism.



cycworker
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:02:42 AM
mamashosh - I actually don't understand enough of what y'all are saying re: Judaism to have an opinion. I am totallly lost. Given that, I will take your word for it that you see her behaviour as being equivalent to Skybar's.

I am only speaking to the fact that Skybar says anyone who believes differently than she does and still calls themselves a Christian is lying when they do so.



-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`


The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
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mamashosh
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:23:52 AM

But I agree with the High Rabbi of Israel (again, let me stress that I don't think there should be a High Rabbi of Israel, as that isn't in the Torah) that the Reform movement is "outside of Judaism." Any movement that rejects the divinity of the Torah lacks spirituality, in my personal opinion.


For the record, I do not reject the 'divinity' of the Torah, nor does any Reform Jew that I know. I do believe the Torah is both sacred and holy.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:26:12 AM
Well, I take it back then. I didn't call her a liar.

She believes what she wants, and I can't judge her for it. And she hasn't stated what she believes, so how can that statement i made to someone else in a different context be personally against her?

I think Reform Judaism's rejection of the divinity of the Torah is spiritually empty. Did I say she was spiritually empty? No. That would be a judgement I shouldn't make on anyone. That's between her and HaShem.

There are different movements in Judaism with different beliefs. If you subscribe to one, do you hate all the others and the people who practice it? No. That would be wrong, as we are all Jews.

If she wants to get hysterical about it, then it is on her and not me.

desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:28:27 AM

For the record, I do not reject the 'divinity' of the Torah, nor does any Reform Jew that I know. I do believe the Torah is both sacred and holy.


Do you believe man wrote the Torah, or did HaShem?

Because on the URJ website, they state the Torah is divinely inspired, and that's been the opinion of every Reform rabbi I encountered in my entire life, so it would be really interesting to hear from someone who is Reform but accepts HaShem wrote the Torah.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:49:31 AM
I do believe that G-d wrote the Torah.

Of course, that begs the questions of what I believe G-d is, and what I mean by "wrote".

But really, I don't believe you are looking for a true theological debate when you throw insults at major branches of Judaism. I'd be happy to have that debate with someone who can respectfully disagree. Batya and I could have a wonderful Conservative versus Reform debate, for example. But that's not what this is about for you, so I think instead I will go to sleep.



desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:57:13 AM
That is wonderful to hear, but yes, it does open up a large discussion i would definitely be interested in having with you if you were open toit.

I'm sorry if you view my views as insulting; it is not my intent. Good night.

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/26/2012 12:59:16 AM
From the URJ (Union for Reform Judaism)'s website, lest anyone think that Reform Judaism has rejected the holiness of Torah:


Reform Jews accept the Torah as the foundation of Jewish life containing God’s ongoing revelation to our people and the record of our people’s ongoing relationship with God. We see the Torah as God inspired, a living document that enables us to confront the timeless and timely challenges of our everyday lives.


So yes, my definition of G-d and my definition of "wrote" is different from an Orthodox Jew's definitions of those words, but I would not want anyone to walk away from this thread thinking that the Torah is not holy to us.

And yeah, all these posts and I still don't know how to add a link!!



desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 1:59:04 AM
It says divine inspired. Yes, it is holy and precious to you. I just can't reconcile or change my belief that it isn't inspired, it is divine. And it says no more books.

Maybe Jews who are secular have the right idea about staying out of synogogues.

I feel like we've completely hijacked the OP's thread and I feel terrible as to her situation. It is probably very painful for her.

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Posted: 11/26/2012 7:42:47 AM
Me: I'm just telling you what I was taught, not what I believe. I'm an atheist and respect everyone's right to religion (or not).


Batya: I know! I just feel badly when people say that b/c some people get carried away with the chosenness and use it to subjugate others.

/quote]

Thanks! It's funny, though, because even as an atheist, I love to learn about religions. I used to ask this woman at work about Judaism (it started when I had a very, very non-traditional Jewish funeral to go to) and she always answered my questions with a lot of thought, pride and detail. She said it was a mitzvah (not sure of the spelling). I took that to mean in my case, "Good deed to educate the stupid." Thanks for the discussion here!

I-95
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Posted: 11/26/2012 8:11:18 AM

He said that in I think 1997, and it was because all those movements reject the divinity of the Torah. That was his rationalization of the "they are outside Judaism" statement.


The Chief Rabbi believes 90% of the Jews are 'outside the faith', but one thing we do agree on is there shouldn't be a Chief Rabbi. He represents such a small number of Jews, but his power is astounding.

Skybar
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Posted: 11/26/2012 8:51:26 AM

Every religion has sects that practice/believe things that go outside the accepted form of their religion in today's world.

'religions' do that. They are often 'renamed' with the name of a denomination. Evidently Jews do that also.
That's 'relgion' - adding to or taking away by 'man'.

'accepted form of their 'religion' in TODAY'S WORLD' -
following Christ (being a Christian) isn't accepting a 'form' of it that is ACCEPTABLE by TODAY'S WORLD. That is totally against what Christ taught. Those who don't read and study what He says won't know that - or some have read it but still don't accept it because THEY don't agree with Christ. In which case, they are some OTHER 'religion' made up by man, not Christian.


We have Pat Robertson telling people that God brought Katrina to punish Christians.

and do you know that God didn't/doesn't do that? can you prove it?
to 'punish' Christians are man's words... in the Bible God did do things like that to warn people when they turned away from Him. It happens again and again in the Bible. There are things happening today that are rather specifically mentioned in the Bible. He gave many warnings before He destroyed a people (group of people, city, land etc).

Making up your own 'version' of God doesn't make it the truth.


I said you reject the divinity of Torah. Which is true.

just as many who say they are Christian reject the divinity of the Bible.
There are things in it they don't like, some things that conflict with their lifestyles. There are some peas on here who have questioned those who 'pick and choose'. They usually cite a scripture that isn't relevant under the new covenant, but at least they are questioning things. The scriptures they use are those most often used on atheist websites - because they also don't know the difference.

I haven't seen much in response to aslan's post about it.

as for 'my' Christianity - read what Jesus says about it. I'm not alone in what I believe. It is what Jesus and the Apostles taught and I'm hearing more and more ministers/teachers speak out about it. Many spoke out during the campaign saying the same. If you hear it depends on who you are listening to - someone who teaches from the Word of God or someone who teaches what the world supports (what many want to hear).

If you can find in God's Word where He tells us to believe what we want or what the world tells us to believe - please post it 'cause I haven't found that in His Word yet.

He does say we'll be judged BY His Word, not ours.




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

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Posted: 11/26/2012 9:32:39 AM
I agree with Mamashosh. Desertpea, when people quote you to defend their point, you scream 'out of context' which you don't really understand the meaning of.

Next, you do know a large contingent of Jews believe Karaites are not actually Jewish, correct? I will not go there, personally, but the Chief Rabbi of Israel originally wanted to prevent them from immigrating to Israel and there are those who believe there is no such thing in modern times. There was a long standing feud between Karaites and Orthodox Jews with whom you try to align yourself. And even though Karaites are recognized under the law of return, the rabbinate whom you quote so much against Reform and Conservative Jews, is to this day still sharply divied on whether it is ok to marry Israeli Jews to Karaites. All is not how you make it seem. Again, you protest too much. And you project.

The similarities between your version of Judaism and Skybar's version of Christianity are striking, indeed.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 1:40:13 PM

The Chief Rabbi believes 90% of the Jews are 'outside the faith', but one thing we do agree on is there shouldn't be a Chief Rabbi. He represents such a small number of Jews, but his power is astounding.


90% outside of the faith. That is a huge number. What we should discuss is WHY. Most are secular, the rest practicing in the R/R/C movements, smaller percentage atheists/agnostics, and then you have a ton who simply converted out of Judaism.

My concern is the secular and the converting out. Unless you embrace Rabbinical Judaism (which then leads to the whole Chief Rabbi thing, because there has to someone who determines who is and is not a Rabbi (originally Torah scholar & now considered spiritual leaders)), there is nothing for those people, and it will remain that way unless something changes. American Jews, if secular for a variety of reasons or converting out, might not have that spiritual connection to Israel any more. Half the Jews in Israel don't belong to a synogogue.

This doesn't concern anyone? Anyone ask why?

It creates a breeding ground for new movements such as Reform, Conservative, and Chasidism -- in the past 150 years alone. Now these movements are considered mainstream. Didn't take long. Chabad has done wonderful things, such as promoting Noachide to Gentiles, and of course their Jewish outreach. Not enough though.

After attending over 20 different synagogues of different degrees within each movement in my lifetime for various lengths (some short visits, others for multiple years), I came to realize there is a parallel gap or void in the movements. Now, that is only my personal opinion. I never expect many who are firmly bonded to a particular synogogue for a significant amount of time to agree; I find that more secular and converted away people understand what I am talking about.

Either way, I wanted to thank you for the enjoyable discussion. I know we disagree politically, but you have really demonstrated a significant amount of empathy, knowledge, and personal intelligence. Very refreshing for the pod.

Skybar
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Posted: 11/26/2012 2:15:17 PM

The similarities between your version of Judaism and Skybar's version of Christianity are striking, indeed.

in that she believes Jews should go by what the Torah says over what some human man (whether alive today or from writings of someone who has died) tells you it says and I say basically the same thing - what does the Bible say over what some preacher (or anyone) tells you the Bible says. pretty similar - and basic.

why don't the 2 of you post what you mean by holy and divine. Those are often different to different people.

Not that this will change that one of you believes that God is fallible. Not something I ever thought of a Jewish person thinking or believing about God. Not something I believe Jews in the OT thought or believed about God either. I think that is something I will now want to ask of anyone who tells me they are Jewish.

many people have a mistaken idea of what 'perfect' means when used in the Bible. It helps to understand what is being said if one looks up how a word is used in the Bible. Many words used in it (depending on 'version') don't mean what we commonly know them to mean today.

Strong's lists this for 'perfect' as used in Genesis 6:9 -

1) complete, whole, entire, sound

a) complete, whole, entire

whole, sound, healthful

c) complete, entire (of time)

d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity

e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 2:42:53 PM

If you can find in God's Word where He tells us to believe what we want or what the world tells us to believe - please post it 'cause I haven't found that in His Word yet.

He does say we'll be judged BY His Word, not ours.


My intent is not to offend you, and I'm discussing Christianity as a whole here -- not ChristIANS, but what do you expect when you have multiple different versions of your Bible? That is the result. You all can't agree on that one very crucial thing, so of course there is going to be a lot of dissent.

As no offense intended, I will never, ever become a Christian because I believe the Torah is HaShem's true Word. The only way I can become Christian is if I deny that fact. Not going to happen.

This is actually on topic, but the only portions of the Tanakh that can be used by a Christian to evangelize to a Jew is any portion that has to do with Mashiach. And the Jew has to be fairly ignorant of Torah, plus an unbeliever that the Torah is HaShem's Word. There are a lot of Jews who meet that criteria, so Christians are successful converting a percentage of them. There are some who just plain out don't believe anything and will never convert as well. One of the reasons why Jews convert is because they are seeking spirituality.

There is one very specific phrase HaShem says in Torah that renders an entire conversion attempt useless... so again, my intention isn't to insult anyone or their faith, but anyone trying to sell the concept of Christ's divinity is not going to work on a knowledgeable Jew. It is merely a semblance of faith based logic is the best way I can explain it.

Now, that doesn't mean we as Jews should abhor Christians. Not at all; there is a lot of commonality as long as the topic of Christ's divinity isn't the center of conversation. long story short, there is a reason why the phrase Judeo-Christian exists.

I-95
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Posted: 11/26/2012 2:51:55 PM

My concern is the secular and the converting out. Unless you embrace Rabbinical Judaism (which then leads to the whole Chief Rabbi thing, because there has to someone who determines who is and is not a Rabbi (originally Torah scholar & now considered spiritual leaders)), there is nothing for those people, and it will remain that way unless something changes. American Jews, if secular for a variety of reasons or converting out, might not have that spiritual connection to Israel any more. Half the Jews in Israel don't belong to a synogogue.

This doesn't concern anyone? Anyone ask why?


Actually, 70% of Israeli Jews consider themselves to be secular. The Reform movement is the fastest growing, and if I'm not mistaken, the largest group of Jews, worldwide.

I suspect people gravitate toward the Reform movement because it's 'easier', although I know a bunch of Reform Jews who do keep Kosher, observe Shabbat, don't drive to Shul etc. I suspect that Jews who wish to have a relationship with G-d, but do not want, or even believe in the rigors of the Ultra Orthodox movements, find a home in Reform, Conservative, or even Reconstructionist movements. Let's face it, even the Catholic Church has made some pretty dramatic changes in the last 100 years to keep Catholics coming to Church too. I suspect most religions have, but they will all still maintain their 'Orthodox' sects.

The one thing I firmly believe is G-d gave us a brain, and free will... to me that meant we should question, argue, and decide, for ourselves, not for others. If there is a judgement day, we will have to answer for ourselves, and our own choices.

And with the Jews I know, and there's a LOT of them. I don't know a single Jew who has converted.


Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 11/26/2012 3:11:51 PM
I'm going to stay far far away from the religious discussion, but I just wanted to say that after reading all this I now understand the basis for DesertPea's political views. Not that I agree with them, but I now understand where she's coming from and why.




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Posted: 11/26/2012 3:23:43 PM
I keep telling people that I think all of these churches/religions that are denouncing other groups are going to be sadly surprised when they get to heaven and there are people from all religions being welcomed in.



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desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 3:38:27 PM
Skybar -- STOP! And I apologize if you already know this.

Seriously, batya is a Conservative Jew. Actions are observance, and they can take a very liberal view of the Torah because it is divinely inspired but man made.

Depending on her particular views, as long as she is keeping kosher / performing mitzvot, etc. she is practicing her faith to the best of her abilities. How she views Torah is not important -- actions are.

It isn't like the Catholic Church where everything is generally the same no matter where you go.

I was going to get to that part after she made those statements, but batya freaked out and started calling me a white supremist.

desertpea
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Posted: 11/26/2012 4:05:41 PM

The one thing I firmly believe is G-d gave us a brain, and free will... to me that meant we should question, argue, and decide, for ourselves, not for others. If there is a judgement day, we will have to answer for ourselves, and our own choices.



Agree.


And with the Jews I know, and there's a LOT of them. I don't know a single Jew who has converted.


CA, NY, FL is below your avatar --- lot of country in between those areas. And in those areas are Jews, and I know quite a few who did convert or who are former Jews. Most that I know are secular for their own reasons that are none of my business, and others may attend a synagogue simply because it is the only one within 50 miles. Keep in mind there is not a whole lot of variety or availability for them depending on the location compared to the coasts. It's all relative.


I'm going to stay far far away from the religious discussion, but I just wanted to say that after reading all this I now understand the basis for DesertPea's political views. Not that I agree with them, but I now understand where she's coming from and why.



Huh?

mamashosh
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Posted: 11/26/2012 4:22:24 PM
I agree with I-95 that I know A LOT of Jews and I can't think of a single one who has converted, so I don't see this as a big issue.


suspect people gravitate toward the Reform movement because it's 'easier', although I know a bunch of Reform Jews who do keep Kosher, observe Shabbat, don't drive to Shul etc.


While I agree that the Reform movement is indeed 'easier' in some ways to follow (less rules, more open to interpretation and choice), I think it is the political platforms that have attracted many of us. The Reform movement takes a decidedly left of center stance and that appeals to me . Furthermore, while I am not in a mixed marriage so this does not play into how my husband and I chose a Synagogue, there are many Jews who are and and the Reform movement, at least in my experience, is the most inclusive of non-Jewish spouses.



I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!

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Posted: 11/26/2012 6:01:01 PM

CA, NY, FL is below your avatar


LOL!! That's been there for at least 10 years I now divide my time between the US and Israel, where I live on a Kibbutz.

Israeli Jews are probably not good candidates for conversion. The ones I know in the US, mostly in mixed marriages, the non-Jewish partner is more likely to convert than the Jewish partner. Personally, I have yet to meet a Jew who converted to Christianity....wait, I do know one who became a Jew for Jesus, so I suppose he did something, although I don't know whether he did a formal conversion to Christianity. I just thought it was weird when he told me he belonged to Jews for Jesus.

leftturnonly
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Posted: 11/26/2012 7:31:44 PM

what do you expect when you have multiple different versions of your Bible


This is an excellent point, and one that significantly yet subtly changes understanding when reading the Bible.

I don't get the same feeling from modern era Bibles, as if they've left out some needed spices to get the flavor just right.




This is actually on topic, but the only portions of the Tanakh that can be used by a Christian to evangelize to a Jew is any portion that has to do with Mashiach. And the Jew has to be fairly ignorant of Torah, plus an unbeliever that the Torah is HaShem's Word. There are a lot of Jews who meet that criteria, so Christians are successful converting a percentage of them. There are some who just plain out don't believe anything and will never convert as well. One of the reasons why Jews convert is because they are seeking spirituality.

There is one very specific phrase HaShem says in Torah that renders an entire conversion attempt useless... so again, my intention isn't to insult anyone or their faith, but anyone trying to sell the concept of Christ's divinity is not going to work on a knowledgeable Jew. It is merely a semblance of faith based logic is the best way I can explain it.


Too bad you never had the opportunity to meet my sister's MIL. She would have told you of her own personal conversion that would show you the fallacy of your idea.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

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Posted: 11/26/2012 7:53:14 PM

And with the Jews I know, and there's a LOT of them. I don't know a single Jew who has converted.

Another one who has known a LOT of Jews over the course of a long life, but I don't know a single one who has converted to Christianity. OTOH, I know some Christians who have converted to Judaism.

I don't think conversion is the widespread problem desertpea would have us believe it to be.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

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Posted: 11/26/2012 8:11:13 PM

Another one who has known a LOT of Jews over the course of a long life, but I don't know a single one who has converted to Christianity. OTOH, I know some Christians who have converted to Judaism.


I personally know 4 Jews who converted to Christianity, but not one Christian who has become Jewish.

<shrug>





If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/26/2012 8:43:54 PM

Too bad you never had the opportunity to meet my sister's MIL. She would have told you of her own personal conversion that would show you the fallacy of your idea.


I am sure plenty of Jews convert for different reasons, and some are super knowledgeable about Torah. I was describing a "prime target" if you will -- maybe I didn't describe it the right way, or include enough caveats to cover all the bases necessary to satisfy every possible situation. There are always exceptions. I am sure your sister's MIL had her reasons for converting away, and there is no hard and fast rule that will apply in every case.

We are all individuals, and have our own rationales for our spiritual changes, or non-changes.

But yeah, I believe that one thing in the Torah covers it for me. No one can convince me otherwise. We can discuss that one thing and go back and forth for twelve hours about it, and I am pretty sure I personally will still be a Jew at the end of the session.



Israeli Jews are probably not good candidates for conversion.


Probably. Always exceptions. But I am mainly talking about non-major cities. Someone in the middle of BFE, for example. No synagogue, no real Jewish community. Is it doable for them to remain Jewish? Of course. Are there exceptions? Of course. Everyone is different.

Not too long ago, someone posted a thread here distraught over a family member converting away, and no one posted "quit your whining and just accept it!" -- we comforted her and offered her support and advice instead.


desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/26/2012 11:46:44 PM

I don't think conversion is the widespread problem desertpea would have us believe it to be.


So if "conversion is not a widespread problem," then why do you think it is possible for someone to "force their religion on you"?

I don't think conversion is a widespread problem, btw. That is your opinion of what I said.

--

Batya, according to Orthodox rabbis in Israel, children born to a Karaite Jewish mother are Jews, the same as they do children born to a Conservative Jewish mother or a Reform Jewish mother.

What they don't recognize is Karaite conversions, Reform conversions, Conservative conversions, Reconstructionist conversions -- everything except Orthodox conversions are invalid.

Do you agree with those two statements? If so, why do you think that is?

lucyg819
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Posted: 11/26/2012 11:55:17 PM
I don't think I've said anything about anyone's religion being forced on me.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:19:52 AM
I don't want to make a false assumption about you personally, and if I did, please correct and I will apologize -- if someone knocks on your door to evangelize to you, is that forcing religion on you? I keep seeing that phrase pop up and obviously I am confused.

This is from the first page of the thread (not saying you said this):


I understand that they think they'd be 'saving' us and doing us a favor. But from the flipside it is aggravating, insulting and demeaning.



Skybar
Perfect Peaing

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Posted: 11/27/2012 2:24:27 AM

My intent is not to offend you, and I'm discussing Christianity as a whole here -- not ChristIANS, but what do you expect when you have multiple different versions of your Bible? That is the result. You all can't agree on that one very crucial thing, so of course there is going to be a lot of dissent.

No offense taken.
however, having multiple 'versions' shouldn't make a difference in agreement on the basics of Christianity. Many who agree on those use different versions. Many of us use a number of different versions. I often read sections in several versions. Some do their normal reading in one but use another (or several) for study. The basics do not change from version to version. There are churches where the majority believe the basics (can't account for new people, visitors etc) but many in it use different versions.

I more often in recent times use biblegateway - where I can easily pull up a verse (or chapter) quickly in many different versions.


Skybar -- STOP! And I apologize if you already know this.

Seriously, batya is a Conservative Jew. Actions are observance, and they can take a very liberal view of the Torah because it is divinely inspired but man made.

Is this about batya being a conservative Jew with liberal views or more about my asking that you (both) define words like 'divine' and 'holy'?
While I wouldn't have considered someone who says they are a Conservative Jew to have liberal views, often words like 'divine', 'holy' and 'perfect' as used in the Bible don't mean what many think they do - as some have posted on other threads (usually a Christian thread I think). Knowing how Jews define them might help to better understand your posts.


I keep telling people that I think all of these churches/religions that are denouncing other groups are going to be sadly surprised when they get to heaven and there are people from all religions being welcomed in.

Maybe some from different denominations but not 'religions' (and people mean different things by that).
Christ Himself speaks about false teachers, false teachings and false 'Christs'. He had sharp words for the Pharisees. The Apostles went from city to city (country to country) teaching what Christ sent them out to teach - that He is the one and only way.

Galatians 1:7-10 (Paul)
there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/27/2012 7:10:05 AM

The Reform movement takes a decidedly left of center stance and that appeals to me .


Why not Jewish Renewal instead?

--

MrsTyler, I did more research. If you can explain the situation with your cousins a bit more, then I can give you a few links. Keep in mind that different Movements in Judaism will have different answers for you. And honestly, regardless of the particular situation, it is my opinion that no mortal man can make that ultimate judgement. It is only an issue for discussion if the cousins wish to make Aliyah to Israel.

And pretty much all the Jewish movements disagree with each other on the "who is a Jew" question, which frankly, is an unnecessary argument to have in my personal opinion.

Regardless, you should urge your cousins to keep records going back at least 5 generations (ketubah, birth records, etc.) in case the children involved ever need to prove their Jewish lineage or want to marry a Jew -- or their children.



Is this about batya being a conservative Jew with liberal views or more about my asking that you (both) define words like 'divine' and 'holy'?


No. Conservative Judaism (not politically conservative, but more like conservation) takes a liberal (loose) view of the Torah & Jewish oral law. It is less than 100 years old, and it developed because Reform was way too "out there" for some Jews, and Orthodox was way too strict for them. It is supposed to be a middle ground between the two. The big difference is how religious services are conducted, but there are some Conservative synagogues that have the same religious views as a typical Reform synagogue. The looser part called Reconstructionist Judaism originated in Conservative Judaism, then it split off. The more observant part called Traditional Judaism eventually split off too. You can basically find this out on Wikipedia or doing some web research on your own, but I am just trying to explain how no two Conservative synagogues are carbon copies of one another. There is a degree of difference and spectrum of opinion. There is an ongoing schism regarding homosexuality and same sex marriage, and it is that type of issue that has a tendency to cause people to leave and join other movements, synagogues to change affiliation, etc. That is what happens when you are in the middle -- you can't make everyone happy.

From what batya said about a fallable G-d and the rest, I can assume she is on the looser end of the scale when it comes to spiritual belief, but on the higher scale when it comes to halakh observance, but I am sure she'll set me straight because I am making an assumption. What this means is that as long as she is keeping kosher and doing things according to Jewish law (subject to various interpretation), that gets her closer to G-d.

Conservative Judaism does not believe the Torah was verbally dictated to Moses on Mount Sinai by G-d. The movement believes Moses got Torah ideas from G-d directly, but Moses and others wrote the words.

Dalai Mama
La Pea Boheme

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Posted: 11/27/2012 7:29:40 AM

So if "conversion is not a widespread problem," then why do you think it is possible for someone to "force their religion on you"?
I don't make a connection between conversion and issues with forcing religion. As an atheist, I'm not overly concerned with losing part of our 'flock' because there is no flock. That doesn't make people pushing their religion any less obnoxious.


Jo Mama

***********************************

Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn

The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams


Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:04:07 AM

I'm going to stay far far away from the religious discussion, but I just wanted to say that after reading all this I now understand the basis for DesertPea's political views. Not that I agree with them, but I now understand where she's coming from and why.


Huh?


You read the Torah the same way your read the Constitution -- if it's not in the document then it's wrong. You have a literal approach to both.




Meow!

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:06:14 AM
If you are atheist, then it is safe to assume nothing anyone says to you is going to change your mind. You know you won't. You don't buy it. Say no thank you and move on. Or enjoy the conversation. Your choice.

The issue crops up when people want to start regulating the perfectly legal and supposedly protected beliefs, behaviors, and practices of others.


You read the Torah the same way your read the Constitution -- if it's not in the document then it's wrong. You have a literal approach to both.


No, I don't interpret the Torah literally. In fact, the exact opposite -- plainly, figurative, historically, whatever makes the most sense in context. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you are getting your Jewish movements mixed up.

AmeliaBloomer
BucketHead

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Posted: 11/27/2012 11:58:40 PM

From Desert Pea: No, I don't interpret the Torah literally. In fact, the exact opposite -- plainly, figurative, historically, whatever makes the most sense in context. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you are getting your Jewish movements mixed up.


This question was addressed to Simply Lovely, but I'll take a stab because I was veering in the same speculative direction as she was, and drawing political parallels.

When I read Batya's interpretation of your theological bent (below), I immediately likened it to strict (constitutional) constructionism vs. judicial activism.


From Batya: You take an originalist meaning of the Torah the best you can of the times it was handed down... you believe only the Torah in its original form, rejecting anything to expand on it or modify it from it's supposed original form bringing any of it into modern times. You consider yourself purist.




However, given your reply (and surprise), I can see where your reading/interpretation of the Torah could be much less literal than I assumed.

(It was a fun theory while it lasted, though.)




desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 11/29/2012 9:34:47 AM
Um yeah, batya's definition was off. She thinks anyone who rejects strict Rabbincal interpretation (Midrash, Talmud, etc.) is a literalist, when in fact it is the exact opposite.


Here is an example:

Talmud/Rabbinical/Mainstream view of "don't boil a kid in its mother's milk" is
- don't eat milk products with meat products (simple definition that evolves into complex based on level of kosher observance)
- have separate plates for milk products and meat products
- have entire different sets of plates for milk and meat products
- have two separate sinks to wash the two different sets of plates in
- have two separate ovens, microwaves, etc.

Karaite view of "don't boil a kid in its mother's milk" is
- at the time of the Torah given to Moses by HaShem, idol worshipers typically bathed their meat in its mother's milk as some sort of purification process or whatever reason behind it
- the logical interpretation of these phrases is not meant to be literal, but instead, HaShem was telling Jews at the time not to act like idol worshipers

If you don't follow the Talmud/Rabbinical view, then you are OBVIOUSLY a literal fundamental extremist.

I don't think people who follow Talmud/Rabbinical view are less Jewish than me, or that they are doing it wrong. That is between them and HaShem. In some cases, like modern Orthodox, I highly respect that they share the opinion the Torah is divine. In other cases, like Reform, I highly respect they realize that the Talmud, Targum, etc. are creations of man and therefore fallable/possibly incorrect. I can probably find plenty of cases in Talmud that the rabbis of the time interpreted something in the Tanakh and I agree with their interpretation. Others, not so much.
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