Wow. UN Decision is in.

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Posted 11/29/2012 by Kelpea in NSBR Board
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Kelpea
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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:31:13 PM



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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:33:29 PM
"41 abstentions". I wonder which countries are commitment-phobic.



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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:33:36 PM
I think it speaks volumes the 41 nations abstained, first of all.

Secondly, a unilateral vote, with no buy in, what does this really mean?

It just goes further to show how obsolete the UN really is. For what other conflict and against what other nation could they get away with this type of statement.

What does it really mean???


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Kelpea
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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:39:34 PM
The UN really is becoming a dinosaur. It's just...well, sad.



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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:43:35 PM
I also think it will backfire against them in the peace process, although I think Abbas and the UN think it will put pressure on Israel. In any event, I don't think 41 nations abstained b/c they were non--committal. Rather they were making a statement. They either did not want to get involved in a situation that they felt should not have been on the table (which does not garner a yes or no vote) or they did not feel it was the time to confer these types of privileges and to vote yes would have done so and to vote no would have been too harsh a statement IF they are otherwise in favor of a Palestinian state.

Germany, for example. Abstained. Israel considers them an ally and hoped for and expected a no vote. But Germany decided on an abstention b/c they felt it would not further the peace process.


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obsidian
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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:48:56 PM
Batya is on fire this week almost everybody is agreeing with her.

The high level of abstentions mean the voters could loose out if they vote yes or no. It makes the whole process trickier and ultimately redundant. The UN tends to be more a global thermometer than a regulatory body anyway.

gypsyz3
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Posted: 11/29/2012 4:59:00 PM
I've stayed away from these posts in the past but I have to say that it speaks volumes to know what countries voted no:


The United States and Israel voted against recognition, joined by Canada, the Czech Republic, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama.





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Posted: 11/29/2012 5:03:27 PM
What do your "volumes" say gypsy?


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Posted: 11/29/2012 5:11:43 PM
I am not sure why it's a "wow" as this was expected outcome. From what I have heard its not expected to have any impact on what is taking place on the ground or really anywhere else.


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obliolait
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Posted: 11/30/2012 10:39:15 AM
Here is the map of countries by vote


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Posted: 11/30/2012 10:52:23 AM
That's all well and good. But lets take a step back and see what it means.

They have all the rights of... the Vatican.

It does not change their status in the region nor does it change anything conferred upon them by Israel.

It may actually hurt the peace process.

It is akin to the world via the UN taking a vote on the secession of Texas without input from the US. It's nice, as a statement, but the meaning is not a whole lot.

So it gives the UN power and nothing more.

And 41 countries wanted no part of this for a variety of reasons.



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Posted: 11/30/2012 10:56:57 AM
oh you dirty dog
get over it, it is an apartheid
and the whole world knows it

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Posted: 11/30/2012 11:04:21 AM
It isn't but you can frame it that way if you choose. It's unfortunate that Israel is in a situation where they fear for their safety. They are up against homicide bombers who will stop at nothing to kill everyone and anyone they can.

I notice you didn't break down any other the good arguments I made. You resorted to frustrated name calling. The hallmark of a lost debate. Unfortunately for you, it was easy to take you down this time.

I do want there to be a solution. And if a two state solution is the answer, I want them to find a way to do that which will be SAFE for Israel and will not require giving the entire NJ sized nation away.

Land taken through war any other time through history was never expected to be given back unilaterally b/c someone threw violent, murderous tantrums.

If the UN voted that Canada should evict its current peoples and give the land rightly back to the First Nations, you're saying you would leave. That's what you are saying by implying that this vote should do more than what it actually does.

So have your online, name-calling tantrums. They don't ruffle my feathers. I've been called worse by better than you.


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obliolait
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Posted: 11/30/2012 11:28:58 AM
The whole victims of homicidal maniac argument would be more effective if Israel didn't actively participate in their own destruction. Authoritarianism has not stopped attacks, instead it has incited a new generation.

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Posted: 11/30/2012 11:49:27 AM
Still you haven't addressed any arguments about this vote. To be expected. SSDD.

Still defending a culture that pays families to martyr their children to go onto buses and kill themselves and as many other innocent people as possible? The whole thing is sad. Why should any of them die, Jew or Arab?

Not to mention, you are happy to be in consort with some questionable bedfellows, Canadian friend. Countries that subjugate women, behead and stone adulterers and women who are suspected of premarital sex. Oppress them politically and have the worst civill rights records. But they vote your way so it's all good now.

50 countries did not vote your way. Look at those and see whether your social and political views are more aligned with them: Canada, Britain, Germany, Austrailia or with China, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea in favor. You are aligning yourself with some countries that have the worst human rights violations recorded. Suddenly that's ok? I thought that's what you were railing against.


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obliolait
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Posted: 11/30/2012 11:53:10 AM
there's no point in addressing any of your points. you are not open to discourse, just like the israelis.

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Posted: 11/30/2012 12:09:58 PM
I speak oblio. So your post translates to: batya makes points that are too good and I can't argue them so I'm going to deflect and insult to save face in front of the peas and leave.

I invite you to argue the points. I want to know:

why this vote is significant with no buy in from Israel,

how come Israel needs to return land legitimately won through war when Canada, the US, etc, don't have to do the same,

how the UN can make a unilateral statement when it is known that in order for a country to have state status in the UN, it has to be bilateral,

why you want to side with countries that have horrid human rights violations on an issue that you couch as being a human rights issue,

why you see the power equivalent worldwide as the power held by the Vatican as being so significant, and

why my honest questions imply to you or anyone else that I am not open to discourse?

This is actually how discourse is invited. One person makes a statement. Another replies. (One calls names. Another doesn't take the bait and instead, with maturity,) gives arguments to defend her position, waits for response, asks good, thoughtful questions with information backing those questions.

What is your definition of discourse? Would that be calling someone a dirty dog and accusing them of supporting apartheid? Surely if I can look beyond that, you can interrupt your tantrum, apologize for your insults and continue with the discourse.

Unless, you actually have no answers. Which I suspect is the problem for you. If that's the case, I believe I have given you food for thought and that's always a positive in my book.


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lynlam
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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:00:58 PM
Batya, just wanted to say that I you in this thread. This smack down of Oblio is fun to watch!





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obliolait
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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:44:34 PM

So your post translates to: batya makes points that are too good and I can't argue them so I'm going to deflect and insult to save face in front of the peas and leave.


That is the interpretation of a person with antisocial personality disorder. Allow me to rephrase, there is no sense in confronting any of your arguments because you do not engage in a rational discourse. You do not internalize other people's ideas, rather you knit pick for minor fallacies that have no bearing on the thesis. It is very frustrating to have any kind of discussion with you because you are intelligent but so narrow minded. Lynlam has a similar style but is not intelligent.

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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:47:29 PM
Israel doesn't want peace

Thanks gypsyz3 and oblio for posting the countries, that is significant.


50 countries did not vote your way. Look at those and see whether your social and political views are more aligned with them: Canada, Britain, Germany, Austrailia or with China, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Eritra in favor. You are aligning yourself with some countries that have the worst human rights violations recorded. Suddenly that's ok? I thought that's what you were railing against.

This question is ridiculous and you didn't even list all the countries because some don't go with your logic like France, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden (just to name a few) all voted in favor. Voting is political, not always whether or not you support it. Clearly the US wants to stay on Netanyathu's good side by not voting against him. The tiny islands either didn't want to make any waves or didn't show up. You can't really count that as a win for your side.


Still you haven't addressed any arguments about this vote. To be expected. SSDD.



You shout this out in every argument you have on here so same could be said for you.




Annabella
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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:48:53 PM

That is the interpretation of a person with antisocial personality disorder. Allow me to rephrase, there is no sense in confronting any of your arguments because you do not engage in a rational discourse. You do not internalize other people's ideas, rather you knit pick for minor fallacies that have no bearing on the thesis. It is very frustrating to have any kind of discussion with you because you are intelligent but so narrow minded. Lynlam has a similar style but is not intelligent.

Good analysis. I admit I only skimmed this thread, just couldn't be bothered to read all the spin.




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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:53:59 PM
Annabella, you too cannot argue the points. Duly noted.

Interesting that oblio and Annabella both happen to be psychologists. Did not know this. Poor deflections.

Why won't either of you who are in favor of this vote discuss why it's so important and why you are happily now in league with countries that are the worst human rights violators on earth?

Why you are so excited about the rights the Vatican has? Are you both Catholic?

Anti-social?



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Posted: 11/30/2012 1:58:39 PM

Thanks gypsyz3 and oblio for posting the countries, that is significant.


Could you explain how it's significant? Thanks.


That is the interpretation of a person with antisocial personality disorder. Allow me to rephrase, there is no sense in confronting any of your arguments because you do not engage in a rational discourse. You do not internalize other people's ideas, rather you knit pick for minor fallacies that have no bearing on the thesis. It is very frustrating to have any kind of discussion with you because you are intelligent but so narrow minded. Lynlam has a similar style but is not intelligent.

Good analysis. I admit I only skimmed this thread, just couldn't be bothered to read all the spin.



You just called something a 'good analysis' when you admittedly agreed haven't read anything in which it is responding to. But you expect to be taken seriously?

That's just like having a book censored that you refused to read. Very smart!





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Posted: 11/30/2012 2:02:50 PM
You are following my analysis to a T! Are you sure you aren't some kind of malicious spam-bot?

Annabella
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Posted: 11/30/2012 2:04:24 PM

Why won't either of you who are in favor of this vote discuss why it's so important and why you are happily now in league with countries that are the worst human rights violators on earth?

I'll repeat my post and this explains why it is significant:

This question is ridiculous and you didn't even list all the countries because some don't go with your logic like France, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden (just to name a few) all voted in favor. Voting is political, not always whether or not you support it. Clearly the US wants to stay on Netanyathu's good side by not voting against him. The tiny islands either didn't want to make any waves or didn't show up. You can't really count that as a win for your side.


You're really starting to look crazy batya.

I read this article in the paper yesterday web page ok well I can't find the article online but just the photo slide show, I definitely read it in the past 2 days. In short it says while Israel my text a Hamas leader at 3am to tell him to wake up his entire family and flee down many flights of stairs in 2 minutes, it does not protect all of his neighbors who do not get this call.




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Posted: 11/30/2012 2:14:31 PM
Oblio, you're projecting and trolling now, so I will focus on the substantive posts. If you wish to respond like a coherent adult, I will engage. Otherwise, you're done.

Annabella, I CAN list 41 abstentions and 9 nos as well as 138 yesses.

You seem to have missed the point so I will spell it out more clearly.

While the PA courted much of the European vote, I was talking to Oblio about his concern about human right violations and how he was saying that MANY countries, the WORLD! wanted this. That WORLD! included MANY countries that he vehemently disagrees with on political, social, human rights and civil issues.

Conversely, if you look at a number of the countries that DID vote no or abstain, they are countries that I presume agree with his views on social or political issues. Deliberate mentions of Germany, Britain, Canada (his home) and Austrailia - liberal on issues such as socialized health care, strict gun control, for example.

You can't say that countries voting with the US are not a win for our side b/c they didn't want to make waves unless you make the same argument for the nations that voted against. IN FACT it is a better argument against you since it makes MORE WAVES to vote with the minority than with the majority. So your argument on that point makes no sense.

There were three countries that did not vote. Those were not counted in the no, abstention or yes votes. So those count for no one, another point you are wrong about.

And I would like you now, since you raised the issue, to sit there and go country by country and let me know, one by one of all that voted in favor, with which you align yourself politically and socially. I'll wait. That is assuming you know the politics of those countries.

Call me crazy. Since your opinion is of so little value to me, so is you armchair diagnosis. Peas can read and decide for themselves whether mine is a reasoned response. I have exhibited nothing here but rational debate and intellectual, factual, educated answers. If it makes you feel better to insult, have at it. It doesn't change one iota of the points I made. They all stand and I stand behind them.


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Posted: 11/30/2012 2:17:23 PM
Annabella and Obliolait,

I haven't really followed what is going on in Isreal as I probably should be. I have read almost all of Batya's posts on the matter and find her arguments to be easy to read and understand. When she is arguing on this subject, she puts a lot of knowledge into it. I can obviously see that you both are on the other side of the argument and would actually like to hear what the other side is. I'm not asking this because I want to tear holes into, I just want to know more of what is going on. Although you may not want to engage with Batya, there are others reading the forums and I'm one that knows you don't agree with her, but I don't know why. Could you please add that in, so it can help me have a more rounded idea of what's going on?

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Posted: 11/30/2012 2:53:28 PM

You're really starting to look crazy batya.





That is the interpretation of a person with antisocial personality disorder.


Seriously Obliolait and Annabella??? Batya is making reasoned, rational arguments and you resort to name calling instead of reasoned responses and you expect to be taken seriously? Disagree with her politics if you will, but the ad hominem attacks discredit you.

I personally stand in awe of Batya's ability to argue articulately and I agree with everything she says.



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Posted: 11/30/2012 3:10:21 PM

You're really starting to look crazy batya.
Oh honey. Hardly. LOL. You hang in there though.


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Posted: 12/1/2012 12:40:00 PM
I'm going to add a little story to this thread, changing gears a little.

I dropped little DD at a party today. Before leaving, I asked the mom what was going to be served for lunch. (If it was hot dogs or chicken, b/c it wasn't kosher, I was going to tell DD just to eat the snacks and that I would buy her something to eat at pick up.) The mom said pizza, so I asked, plain cheese? SHe said yes. I said the reason I asked is DD can't have the meat, we're kosher. (I didn't want her to think picky or that I was bizarrely nosy or something.) She said, we can't either. I asked, are you Muslim? She said yes, so I said, you're Halal! She smiled.

So we're more alike than different. And that is not the story of a dirty dog.


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emshell
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Posted: 12/1/2012 1:51:36 PM


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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:10:15 PM

She said, we can't either. I asked, are you Muslim? She said yes, so I said, you're Halal! She smiled.


Did you actually just recite a self-congratulating story of how you made nice with a muslim?

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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:21:06 PM
Actually, I posted a story about how we're more alike than not and how in everyday life we do relate to each other on a personal level. I thought it was neat b/c I don't encounter a lot of practicing Muslims on a regular basis. I'm sorry you had trouble grasping the point.

But I'm glad you returned and found the thread so now you can actually address the questions I asked and the points I made, if not for my sake, then for peas like shortcake.


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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:23:26 PM
I ask this with no snark. Has Israel ever offered full citizenship to the people of the occupied territories or made other attempts to integrate the territories into Israel as a whole? That would seem to me to be a solution to the problem. Integration and full participation within the economic and political life of the state of Israel.


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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:32:06 PM
The 'territories' were won by Israel through wars started by Arab countries and Israel fought to defend itself. (Israel was not going to be the aggressor in a war on Yom Kippur--that day was chosen by the surrounding countries to take Israel by surprise on its most holy day.) They were to be part of the greater Israel. But were not fully integrated, not because Israel did not want it but b/c the Palestinian Authority and the governing bodies of the peoples father back (since the six day war/Yom Kippur War) did not want that and did not recognize the sovereignty of Israel. So I think you are backing into it and it couldn't solve the problem. KWIM?

The people are not integrated at this point b/c of safety concerns. When there was no fence and when security measures were relaxed, there was the first and second intifada, weaponry was smuggled through more easily and homicide bombings around Israel from those in those territories were pervasive. It has only been controlled b/c of the restriction on that movement by the people. Sadly, innocent people are suffering b/c there has been a history and tradition of Hezbollah and Hamas sending in terrorists from those communities for years.



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obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:33:15 PM

Actually, I posted a story about how we're more alike than not and how in everyday life we do relate to each other on a personal level. I thought it was neat b/c I don't encounter a lot of practicing Muslims on a regular basis. I'm sorry you had trouble grasping the point.



I don't think that the Gazans would agree that their shared dietary restrictions symbolizes an innate friendship with the israelis.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:33:22 PM
This vote was out of place to begin with, regardless of which way countries voted. This is an attempt by the Palestinians to be recognized as a State, when they are not.

Why don't they establish a State, form a government, start acting like responsible citizens, THEN apply to the UN for recognition?

obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:35:10 PM

The 'territories' were won by Israel through wars started by Arab countries and Israel fought to defend itself


That does not nullify the fact that there are millions of people who are brutalized by the israeli occupation nor does it make israel safer that there are new generations who have grown up under the control of one of the must militarized countries on earth.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:36:51 PM

I ask this with no snark. Has Israel ever offered full citizenship to the people of the occupied territories or made other attempts to integrate the territories into Israel as a whole? That would seem to me to be a solution to the problem. Integration and full participation within the economic and political life of the state of Israel.


The Palestinians are the only people on earth with no citizenship. Full integration is not possible because of zionism and zealotry. They would never compromise the 'jewish state'. I am against the idea that any nation should have an official religion.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:51:05 PM
You're missing the point. The point is that when people get together as people and leave their agenda, idealism and problems behind and instead meet as friends, share similarities and goals. It's the premise of groups like Peace Players International and Seeds of Peace. These organizations bring Israeli and Palestinian Children and Teens together in programs as individuals and hope that once they see each other as people, the younger generation will grow up to have a better chance to find peaceful solutions and have less hate and bridge the gaps.

Why shouldn't we want that? And how can you find a negative when I shared something positive? It made me happy to share something like that where I'm very often alone and realize DD has a friend at school who is a Muslim and hope she can learn from her the way she learns about other friends' practices. That's bad to you, oblio? OK. But it doesn't make me the one with the warped POV.

Still waiting for you to address all the points and questions I raised about the UN vote. There's nothing wrong with saying I made good points and you have to think about it.



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:53:50 PM
i'm missing the point bla bla i know nothing despite being a PhD studnet but bla bla i am stupid oyu are so smart

RedSoxDad
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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:56:16 PM

The 'territories' were won by Israel through wars started by Arab countries and Israel fought to defend itself.


Huh? The Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights were won by Israel after the Six Day War in 1967, in which Israel was the aggressor. They launched the air strikes on June 4th first. I will grant you that there was posturing and provocation on all sides, but the vast majority of military historians all agree that Israel began the Six Day War.

You are undeniably correct that Israel has the right and obligation to defend itself, such as it did in 1949 and again during the Yom Kippur War in 1973. I'm not questioning or disputing that.


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
How about this? I'm a left leaning, male chauvinist secular humanist, social-capitalist






batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:56:30 PM
So, you acquiesce? OK. Good. But you shouldn't feel badly about having to admit you don't know all the answers. I do that sometimes and it doesn't mean you aren't bright. Not everyone can know everything about everything. Even PhD candidates.

Although that last response isn't one of your more articulate. Even the dirty dog one was better.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 2:59:30 PM
Red Sox- My apologies. Six Day War was a defensive Pre-emptive strike on Israel's part b/c they knew the 5 'confrontation states' planned to attack. When they knew June 5 was the date for Egypt's attack, they struck first. You are correct.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:03:27 PM
I'm also going to add more info on why I called it a *defensive* preemptive strike before oblio goes cracklakish on me.

By the time Israel decided to strike, Egypt perpetrated six acts according to international law that qualify as legal justification for war:

1-closed access to intl waterways
2-illegal spy-plane fly overs
3-troops/tanks massed on Israel's borders
4-expelled UN and USA peace keepers from Sinai
5-conspiring with other belligerent countries for attack (Syria, Jordan)
6-remilitarized Sinai-violating 1956 agreement


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:06:43 PM
Batya, do you realize that your religion is ridiculous and that god doesn't exist??

lynlam
Don'tcha wish your girlfriend had spurs like mine?

PeaNut 46,248
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:20:40 PM
" It is very frustrating to have any kind of discussion with you because you are intelligent but so narrow minded. Lynlam has a similar style but is not intelligent."



Oh you got me good oblio. You sure did.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.
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Kelpea
Owner of "best tacky invitation" thread EVER

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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:22:51 PM

Batya, do you realize that your religion is ridiculous and that god doesn't exist??


Wow. Just. Wow. Nice.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:29:08 PM
Whether G-d does or doesn't exist neither of us can confirm.

If my religion is ridiculous to you, then you should not be one. I find it to be one that encourages questioning, learning, exploring, repair of the world, care for others and focus on the world we're in. I can tell by your posts that learning and questioning are not your forte. And that's ok. I don't care to convince you otherwise. We don't proselytize.

Religion is not for everyone. I actually have a strong pull toward agnosticism and atheism and if I wasn't born/raised to be a Jew, I could very easily see myself without a G-d belief. So to me, that's not an insult. Nor should it be. It's just another way to look at life. I am very much a thinker and find that the atheists with whom I've been in contact are also deep rational thinkers so we get along quite nicely.

If you're trying to provoke me, it just won't work. I have an extraordinarily thick skin. I don't take pea talk personally.

If you're trying to deflect, I and everyone reading this can see you can't answer my points. So you're just throwing a tantrum. And embarrassing yourself.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:34:08 PM
re " learning and questioning "

I am a scientist Batya.
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