Wow. UN Decision is in.
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 11/29/2012 by Kelpea in NSBR Board
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batya
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:37:35 PM
And let me point out that the ad hominem attack is the last resort of a poor debater.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




batya
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Posted: 12/1/2012 3:39:38 PM
You're a scientist? Then grow up and act like one. We need good scientists in the world. And fewer assholes on the internet. I hope you will be a good scientist. B/c you're already a great asshole on the internet.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




mamashosh
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Posted: 12/1/2012 4:04:50 PM

obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 1:06:43 PM
Batya, do you realize that your religion is ridiculous and that god doesn't exist??


Whether or not God exists is something reasonable people can debate, and I have no problem with that POV (though I disagree with it).

Telling me that my religion is ridiculous terminates any rational discussion. It's good to know where you stand. Probably the most honest thing you have ever said. I suspect you feel the same way about Christianity, right?



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Posted: 12/1/2012 4:14:44 PM

You're a scientist? Then grow up and act like one.


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obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 4:28:14 PM

Telling me that my religion is ridiculous terminates any rational discussion. It's good to know where you stand. Probably the most honest thing you have ever said. I suspect you feel the same way about Christianity, right?


Yes, I am against all religion and it is especially relevant here because the preservation of a jewish state is a motivating factor in the Israeli's treatment of Palestinians. I believe in a democratic state of israel but not in a jewish state of israel. Denying the Palestinians the right to citizenship is a means of preserving the jewish state.

lucyg819
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Posted: 12/1/2012 5:51:45 PM
Didn't this idiot Obliolait already admit he's Jewish himself? Holy hell, what a whack. Or maybe he was lying then.


I ask this with no snark. Has Israel ever offered full citizenship to the people of the occupied territories or made other attempts to integrate the territories into Israel as a whole? That would seem to me to be a solution to the problem. Integration and full participation within the economic and political life of the state of Israel.

I have a feeling it isn't the PC thing to say, but if Palestinians are given Israeli citizenship, Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state, as the Muslims will far outnumber the Jews. Given recent AND ancient world history, I firmly believe in the need for a Jewish homeland.

What's needed is a two-state solution and the sooner both sides come to their senses and make it happen, the better.


LUCYG
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obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 5:59:54 PM

Direct your outrage on the violent Muslim extremists that insist on using violence and fear as their methods of "negotiating" with Israel.


easier said than done. the culture of violence breeds more violence and people born into repression are likely to not embody an innate desire for peace. revenge is actually quite rational.

and yes, i am jewish by birth but i despise all religion.

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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:07:04 PM

Batya, do you realize that your religion is ridiculous and that god doesn't exist??



Mmmm, One Oblio v 14 million Jews.

Jews win!!

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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:13:27 PM

You're a scientist? Then grow up and act like one. We need good scientists in the world. And fewer assholes on the internet. I hope you will be a good scientist. B/c you're already a great asshole on the internet.


Oh, I love you so much!

I love what you bring to the discussion about Israel. Thanks for being here!

batya
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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:15:56 PM

but i despise all religion


Then your vitriol should be directed equally at Israel and the Palestinians who want to get back to Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock was placed atop the ruins of the temple as is the M.O. of Islam when they conquer. Would that be for--oh, I don't know, *religious* reasons???

So, oblio, tell me why it is Israel and their religion that ticks you off but not Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, the PA, etc? Perhaps b/c you know that much of Israel and in turn the IDF soldiers don't care one whit about the chosenness argument b/c they live secular Jewish lives and only want to protect their county. As an American would. Or a Canadian would. I don't suppose you would want a lunatic strapped with explosives crossing into Ontario, would you? And you would expect your gov't to take any necessary measures to stop that. And if that person was of the First Nations... well you didn't want me to go there. Since you are still occupying their land.

Your religion argument against Israel is either poor defense of your point or a red herring. Fail either way.

And I didn't forget that you never answered my comments on the OP, the vote. You only had a temper tantrum b/c I took you down in two posts or less. And then responded with Damn it Batya, I'm a Scientist, not a moron!


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:25:47 PM
Batya, as the only alleged peace loving democracy in the region, I believe that Israel can instigate peace through responsible secular governance. I do not believe that it should be a Jewish homeland nor do I think it is the religious right of any people to occupy Jerusalem or any of the West Bank territory. For the sake of peace, Israel should withdraw from the disputed territories and enforce their own laws in regards to illegal settlements. At the very least, they would have some moral high ground. This is the only way they will be able to counter extremism. As it is, a new generation of children are being raised in the most brutal environment, a war zone, if you think they will act rationally or turn from extremism you are wrong. Many of the same social processes operate in Gaza as they do in places like Compton and East Baltimore - only much worse since it is a literal war zone.

batya
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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:41:04 PM
I appreciate the fact that you gave a sound, thoughtful answer. I also appreciate where you are coming from, theoretically. I don't agree with it, but IF it brought a real lasting peace to the region AND the Jews could live and co-exist there ad infinitum, I would budge on that point. Problem is, by the time we'd find out, it would be too late and we'd be back where we started where Jews had nowhere to go and there would still be many Islamic countries available to people who need that as refuge. If you want to know the truth, that scares me.

At the core, the governing bodies of the West Bank and Gaza are committed to removing Israel/Jews from the map. How do you bridge that with your plan? How can we walk in with our eyes open knowing that as soon as the floodgates open, the goal will be to obliterate the Jews and Israel?

On the illegal settlements, I can make the argument that they are not illegal but I won't since I believe they do impede the peace process, to be honest.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




PunchPrincess

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Posted: 12/1/2012 10:13:57 PM
I've enjoyed reading the discussion so far. Very interesting viewpoints.

Has anyone thought about the similarities between the founding of Israel and the ensuing war and compared it to the founding of the states of India and Pakistan. Both conflicts were bloody but the India/Pakistan partition war was short. Peoples up and migrated if they were Indians in the new Pakistan and the same with the Pakistanis. And many ended up in the US and other countries. Why didn't that happen with the Israelis and Arabs? Muslims were involved in both conflicts, but what is different between the Arab Muslims and the Muslims in other parts of the world. Can those differences within Islam be the root of the problem?

Annabella, I've wanted to ask you this question several times when you have taken the Palistinian side against Israel -- do you recognize the very real heroes in the Jewish community who supported civil rights in this country in the 1960s? Isn't there any gratitude in your heart?


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obliolait
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Posted: 12/1/2012 10:52:23 PM

do you recognize the very real heroes in the Jewish community who supported civil rights in this country in the 1960s? Isn't there any gratitude in your heart?


Wow what a thoroughly racist and disgusting question.

It has been a remarkable day for racism here on two peas.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/2/2012 12:19:29 AM
Semite is a linguistic classification.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/2/2012 12:37:49 AM
How am I an anti-semite? What an idiotic comment.

desertpea
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Posted: 12/2/2012 8:24:59 AM

responsible secular governance


When such a thing is prevalent in Libya, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Lebanon, Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, and the rest, then you'll get your wish.

Until then, it would be absolutely ridiculous for Israel to put a system in place that would result in a Hamas government ruling Israel. It is pretty ignorant to think otherwise.

I don't see you raging against Sharia law countries with the same amount of vigor, with their apartheid policies against non-Muslims, so yeah, your opinion is decidedly intellectually dishonest.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/2/2012 9:46:39 AM
Intellectual dishonesty? You are conflating issues DesertPea. As for my alleged anti-semitism, I have repeatedly expanded on why zealotry and zionism has aggravated the conflict. Considering my entire family is jewish with holocaust victims, it is quite the stretch and insult to call me an anti-semite. Many orthodox/hasidic jews for religious reasons are vehemently opposed to zionism and a jewish state - are they also anti-semites? There are even anti-zionist secular jews in israel who are against the occupation and the notion that israel is sacred land for jews.

allipeas
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Posted: 12/2/2012 11:21:18 AM
I always, always, always regret getting drawn into these threads, but this


Palestinians are in the position they are in now because of their history of religious intolerance.


I absolutely cannot ignore.

My husband's family can trace their roots back AT LEAST 200 years living in the same village and area in Gaza. Prior to the overwhelming immigration of European Jews to the area...Jews, Muslims AND Chrisitans lived side by side.

In the late 1800 Theodor herzel proposed that the Jews should have the land (that is now Israel) as a place to end problems with anti-semitism and thus started the Zionist movement to create a Jewish State...never mind that there were people already living there. I would equate this to American Indians deciding that they wanted the land back that their ancestors had..land that YOU might have paid for, but they wage a "war" to get you to leave your home and when you finally do, you just say, "Oh, you won fair and square, you can have it." I would be willing to bet my last damn dime that you would be calling the police and going to the courts outraged that was happening to you and talking about your "land rights".

Also, how would you feel if the person trying to take over your home had you surrounded? You couldn't leave your house, not even to get food. You couldn't leave to get medicine that you or your family needed. Would you be pissed? Would you fight back? Or would you just leave...

Oh, but that's an interesting point because Palestinians aren't even able TO LEAVE! That's what I don't get. They are subjected to DAILY encroachment of the IDF by land and by air...DAILY. They are forced to live in conditions that I'm certain NONE of us would choose...but yet, I hear over and over again...those damn savages...they are so angry and hateful. I'm hear to tell you that if my children lived the lives that many of my husband's family lives...I don't know what I would do to get them out. So having said all that, religious intolerance by the Palestinians is not the cause, perhaps elsewhere in the world, but not there.

I really don't think a two-state solution is going to work at this point. Hamas and Fatah will never give up power to the other and that is the only way that a two-state solution will work. For the future safety of Israel, they MUST find a way to deal with both Fatah and Hamas. IMO, Gaza and the West Bank will have to be two separate areas controlled by each faction. AND recognition of such is the ONLY way to move forward.

It is my opinion that the more brutal Israel continues to be to the occupied areas, the more favor they lose with the rest of the world and the more animosity they create towards them.

I'm rather appalled that those that wanted the state of Israel to be recognized would begrudge the same to the Palestinians.



allipeas
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Posted: 12/2/2012 11:26:11 AM

I also think it will backfire against them in the peace process, although I think Abbas and the UN think it will put pressure on Israel. In any event, I don't think 41 nations abstained b/c they were non--committal. Rather they were making a statement. They either did not want to get involved in a situation that they felt should not have been on the table (which does not garner a yes or no vote) or they did not feel it was the time to confer these types of privileges and to vote yes would have done so and to vote no would have been too harsh a statement IF they are otherwise in favor of a Palestinian state.

Germany, for example. Abstained. Israel considers them an ally and hoped for and expected a no vote. But Germany decided on an abstention b/c they felt it would not further the peace process.


I respectfully disagree with the notion that they abstained because they didn't want to deal with it. As I stated earlier, voting "No" and continuing to sweep Palestine under the rug, per se, is increasingly becoming a not so popular opinion.

Egypt mostly has shared the responsibility of taking care of the Palestinians as far as border control and such. But with tensions on the rise internally there, it's uncertain how much longer Israel can depend on them to assist. Again, I think it's VITAL that a workable solution be found.



allipeas
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Posted: 12/2/2012 11:33:49 AM

I do want there to be a solution. And if a two state solution is the answer, I want them to find a way to do that which will be SAFE for Israel and will not require giving the entire NJ sized nation away.

Land taken through war any other time through history was never expected to be given back unilaterally b/c someone threw violent, murderous tantrums.

If the UN voted that Canada should evict its current peoples and give the land rightly back to the First Nations, you're saying you would leave. That's what you are saying by implying that this vote should do more than what it actually does.


I agree that Israelis need to be safe, but I would also say the same for the people of Gaza and the fact is they aren't right now. They can't even go 30m towards a fence without be shot to death. Continuing to create an apartheid area will not make Israel safe. And if you look at the techincal term of apartheid (*the condition of being separated from others), is exactly what is happening in Gaza. They do not have freedom of ingress/egress to the rest of the world.

My husband is now a U.S. Citizen. It took us 10 LONG YEARS to achieve this process, partly because he as a Palestinian is considered "stateless". I cannot tell you how many times we had paperwork held up simply because a "code" could not be found in the computer. If this brings Palestinians one step closer to having a life of their own, I'm left shaking my head at the people that want to continue to see them locked up in a shithole of a life!



allipeas
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Posted: 12/2/2012 11:37:41 AM
Now oblio, when you call people names, it certainly doesn't help lead a better discourse of discussion on the topic.

While Batya and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic, she has remained one of the more respectful peas in regards on this topic.




obliolait
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Posted: 12/2/2012 11:38:15 AM
The reason to focus on Israel is because they have the power to make concrete changes. Some Palestinians in Gaza behave like caged animals because in some sense they are.

SpongeMom
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Posted: 12/2/2012 12:00:30 PM

Allipeas,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been reading this thread and feeling like the side of the Palestinians should be shared, but I have not read enough and don't know enough to debate it myself. I was happy to hear you articulate much of what I was thinking about as I read more and more of the history between Israel and Palestine.

Deb

obliolait
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Posted: 12/2/2012 12:17:17 PM
If you want to learn more about the Palestinian side and what life on the ground in Gaza is like, then I recommend the fantastic documentary by David Miller. He is the award winning British documentary maker who was shot in the throat during its making by the Israeli Defense Force, under circumstances described by the British tribunal as murder. It is a beautiful documentary that shows the experience of individuals in Gaza - and I would say it is a rather objective look, exploring both the humanitarian, political and militant sides.

The entire documentary is here

SpongeMom
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Posted: 12/2/2012 7:06:23 PM
Thanks, Obliolait, I will check that out.

Deb

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Posted: 12/2/2012 10:00:25 PM
The UN is obsolete. Israel should never cave to the wishes of the Palestinians, who think it is perfectly acceptable to make women and children walking bombs.

I have no respect for those who use terror to gain status. Palestinians should never be granted a state. They have no moral authority to as Israel for a damned inch of ground. The land was fought for and won. Palestinians just need to accept that and act like civilized human beings. Terrorism against Israel will only strengthen its resolve.

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Posted: 12/3/2012 12:10:13 AM

Yes, I am against all religion and it is especially relevant here because the preservation of a jewish state is a motivating factor in the Israeli's treatment of Palestinians. I believe in a democratic state of israel but not in a jewish state of israel. Denying the Palestinians the right to citizenship is a means of preserving the jewish state.


You are against all religion. That's enough to save you from the historical slaughter of Jews that threatens to erupt again, so you're good!

Though based on the historical empirical evidence of millions of Jews annihilated within living memory, your hypothesis might need a little refinement.

Just a tweak.

Maybe, a tiny piece of land where Jews could just be Jews without interference?








If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



obliolait
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Posted: 12/3/2012 12:22:17 AM

You are against all religion. That's enough to save you from the historical slaughter of Jews that threatens to erupt again, so you're good!

Though based on the historical empirical evidence of millions of Jews annihilated within living memory, your hypothesis might need a little refinement.

Just a tweak.

Maybe, a tiny piece of land where Jews could just be Jews without interference?


LOL maybe we can build this magical jew sanctuary on the moon.

leftturnonly
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Posted: 12/3/2012 12:30:13 AM
To the moon, Alice! (a little Honeymooner aka Jackie Gleason reference there)

Alli - at this point, what do you think would be a realistic egress for the people confined?





If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



TACK
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Posted: 12/3/2012 11:08:35 AM
We keep being told repeatedly on this board that Israel won the war. Yes. Exactly. So Gaza and the West Bank and all of their inhabitants are, wait for it, ISRAEL'S responsibility. Those territories are ISRAELI territories and any power or rights the people and/or leadership have in those Israeli territories are granted or taken away by the Israeli government.

Hamas and Fatah exist in Israel's occupied territories because Israel permits them to exist. Israel permits them to exist so that they have an excuse to keep over a million citizens in lock-down and grab more land in the name of security (or in Netanyahu's case this week, just take more land because he wants more land).

No other "democracy" in the world would allow Hamas to survive within its borders. But no other democracy in the world continues to steal land from its citizens, especially based on race or ethnicity, denies them the rights and privileges of its other citizens, and occasionally bombs then when things get really out of control.

Can't have it both ways. Occupy a territory and then deny resposibilty for it. And peas be very aware that many many jews and Israelis see the palestinian plight as their fight and are doing everything they can to bring them justice, dignity and even a homeland of their own. The opinions we hear here seem quite extreme anti-palestinian, given an exception or two. Most Jews and israeli's I know are quite the opposite.


allipeas
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Posted: 12/3/2012 2:03:14 PM
Well Suffy, you've never disappointed with your obvious hatred.

So, since my grandmother was 100% registered Native American, I would hope that when I knock on your door to claim back MY land that you now deem yours, you won't object and you will peacefully remove your belongings?



allipeas
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Posted: 12/3/2012 2:12:59 PM
Leftturn,

I did reply what I thought was a "start" to the process, like it or not, I do believe that is the only viable way to begin to have peace in the region.

As to the answer of "egress", it seems logical to me that once Gazans as a whole are able to move about freely and begin to rebuild their lives with jobs and basic needs WITHOUT having to rely on the only group that is helping them right now (a/k/a Hamas), that will significantly decrease the attacks on Israel.

I have said time and time and time again that the solution to getting rid of radical Islamists is not to return more violence, but rather take away their "food source" so to speak. For the most part, these groups prey on extremely poor communities that they can bribe with needs that aren't being met by government or local economy/area. To continue violence only breeds more hatred and support for the radicals.

And in response again to Suffy's endearing comments, then W.H.Y. does Israel not let those Palestinians that wish to leave....LEAVE???? Why are they held basically as prisoners to that area?



Jamieson B.
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Posted: 12/3/2012 3:08:12 PM

And peas be very aware that many many jews and Israelis see the palestinian plight as their fight and are doing everything they can to bring them justice, dignity and even a homeland of their own. The opinions we hear here seem quite extreme anti-palestinian, given an exception or two. Most Jews and israeli's I know are quite the opposite.



I'm glad you posted this and find it very reassuring.



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