Has anyone else heard about Hobby Lobby closing??

Two Peas is Closing
Click here to visit our final product sale. Click here to visit our FAQ page regarding the closing of Two Peas.

Posted 11/30/2012 by **Angie** in NSBR Board
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KikiNichole

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Posted: 12/28/2012 5:56:39 PM

I have a feeling that the thousands of people employed by HL don't agree with your cavalier attitude about the company closing.


I would hope that Hobby Lobby wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude either.


~Kristen~

momtomy3girls
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:03:37 PM
They have a strongly held religious belief. I don't consider that "cavalier". It is their company, their private property. I'm sure they'd much rather keep their business going and their employees working. But to those with strong religious convictions, their souls matter a great deal to them regardless of whether those of us without those convictions understand or agree.

Do you really think their decision (if it comes to that) to close their business rather than violate their principals and religious convictions is something they will make in a "cavalier" manner?


scrappower
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:08:47 PM

They have a strongly held religious belief. I don't consider that "cavalier". It is their company, their private property. I'm sure they'd much rather keep their business going and their employees working. But to those with strong religious convictions, their souls matter a great deal to them regardless of whether those of us without those convictions understand or agree.

Do you really think their decision (if it comes to that) to close their business rather than violate their principals and religious convictions is something they will make in a "cavalier" manner?




There are many of us who's religious beliefs are violated on a daily basis. But I don't expect anyone to follow my beliefs but me, not the government or anyone else. Like I said in my ther post, I pay for thinks that I don't support with my tax dollars, but suing would never come to mind. Things aren't always going to coincide with my personal beliefs, this is a melting pot with lots of different ones. I am still free to practice my religion and do what I feel is right I just don't get to control every penny. And I am okay with that. It is part of being in a larger society.



*Erin
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:16:26 PM

Really, Erin?
Yes, really.



weesheepea
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:22:02 PM
Small clarification for everyone - Hobby Lobby is not privately owned, and the ruling that Judge Heaton made is based on this:

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the families own are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not have secular rights.

Snopes - Hobby Lobby


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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:23:03 PM
I'm with Erin on that.


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wren*walk
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:24:23 PM
Are they a church or a religious organization? Or a business?

Because under the law they cannot be both.

They don't get to pick and choose which parts of the law of the land they follow. Just like other businesses don't.







Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:27:55 PM

Hey--here's an idea--if you don't want to keep your legs closed-then buy your own birth control! I am sick of everyone thinking they can do what they want to do and have everyone else pay for it. Can't afford birth control-then don't have sex! It is called personal responsibility.

So, when you say they should quit shoving their religion on their employees--well, stop shoving your need for sex on me.

I am NOT coming at this from a religious point of view- I just am sick of people telling others what they should do. I am pretty sure everyone can afford a condom.



First of all, no insurance private or public covers condoms.

Second of all, birth control is not just used for birth control. I need it to LIVE a normal life. I can die without it. Whether my legs are closed or not I need it
.
And finally, You are so ignorant you're making my blood boil!!




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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:29:26 PM

Are they a church or a religious organization? Or a business?

Because under the law they cannot be both.

They don't get to pick and choose which parts of the law of the land they follow. Just like other businesses don't.



Quite posting stuff like this! You know this is a Christian bashing thread, and posting something that makes sense is just wrong. WRONG.


----Theresa

momtomy3girls
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:29:54 PM
Thanks Danielle. The distinction makes some sense.

However, if they choose to close their business, a lot of people are going to be unemployed and I still believe that those people will be far less concerned with their right to have their employer pay for abortions and/or birth control than those here that are not going to be losing their jobs and who so cavalierly state "let them close". It's real easy to say that when your job is not one of those on the line.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:37:47 PM

First of all, no insurance private or public covers condoms.


Not true.

Washington state's medicaid covers condoms. Patient brings box of condoms of choice and Provider One card to pharmacist and I run it through the plan. It is always cheaper to prevent pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases by paying for condoms than not...



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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:17:47 PM
If they're going to close over something so ridiculous then be done with them.


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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:22:19 PM

Hobby Lobby is not privately owned


They most certainly ARE privately owned.


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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:25:20 PM

Things aren't always going to coincide with my personal beliefs, this is a melting pot with lots of different ones. I am still free to practice my religion and do what I feel is right I just don't get to control every penny. And I am okay with that. It is part of being in a larger society.


Exactly!

smilesnpeacesigns
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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:28:17 PM

Second of all, birth control is not just used for birth control. I need it to LIVE a normal life. I can die without it. Whether my legs are closed or not I need it


Hobby Lobby is not trying to not pay for normal Birth Control like the pill, or a shot or something like that what they are against is

morning-after pill and similar emergency contraception pills.


I totally understand ( as I believe Hobby Lobby's owners do ) that birth control pills, shots etc. can also be a medically necessary solution to some problems but that the morning after pill is for one use and one use only.

I think what the poster that said that you ( not just you, you ) need to keep your legs closed was just being ugly. That is not what Hobby Lobby is saying at all. They think that the morning after pill and similar emergency contraception pills are against their belief that abortion starts at conception.

They have the right to believe that. I think ( I could be wrong since I am not a lawyer ) it would be the same as telling a Jewish man that they were not allowed to wear their kippa while they were at work.Or a Musilum woman that they couldn't wear a hijab. We wouldn't let Hobby Lobby get away with doing that but are turning around and saying they don't have the same right to say we believe this ... it isn't fair it isn't right.

I am thinking that if one of their employees need to use the morning after pill to save their life I would bet that Hobby Lobby's owners would let their insurance cover that.

They just want the same right to say no it is against everything I hold dear.

With that I hope I made sense and didn't come off as un-caring and holier then thou.

Linky


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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:29:00 PM

Hey--here's an idea--if you don't want to keep your legs closed-then buy your own birth control!


Wow.
Crass.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:37:58 PM
As far as I know, HL is not a publicly held company and as far back as I can remember, they have never opened on Sunday so this is nothing new.


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lucyg819
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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:51:01 PM
Doesn't the IUD work the same way, by preventing implantation? I wonder why they aren't objecting to that. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

As for kittymomma and "keep your legs closed" ... holy hell, is it the '50s again? I think women, married and even unmarried, are entitled to have sex. It isn't an infringement on your personal rights.

I'm not even particularly attached to the idea of mandating that insurance pay for birth control ... but statements like that just drive me in that direction. What idiocy.


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teesa
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Posted: 12/28/2012 8:28:02 PM
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Posted: 12/28/2012 8:39:40 PM

Hobby Lobby is not privately owned


They most certainly ARE privately owned.


Yes, they are. They are also headquarted in Oklahoma City.....not Washington as somebody suggested.





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Posted: 12/28/2012 8:43:12 PM
If HL doesn't want to follow the law, then they need to pay the fine. Simple enough. The law is the law and if they don't like the law, they need to try to get it changed. I agree that the owners have the right to their religious beliefs but they don't have the right to press that belief on their employees. If they don't want the government in their business, then perhaps they need to close the hobby stores and open a church.


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Posted: 12/28/2012 8:44:33 PM
How many privately owned restaurants and bars, located on privately owned property, can make the decision to allow smoking in their buildings? Maybe the owners smoke and want to allow smoking in their buildings, and if the people working there don't like it they can work elsewhere, and people can eat and drink elsewhere.

There are many government mandates involving private business that are deemed acceptable as being for the greater good. The personal beliefs of the owners have no bearing on the business and are therefore irrelevant.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




wren*walk
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Posted: 12/28/2012 8:50:12 PM

They think that the morning after pill and similar emergency contraception pills are against their belief that abortion starts at conception.





And if they were a church or other religious organization I would say "good for them" in the spirit of teligious tolerance etc.

But they are not. They are a business. They follow the same laws as all other American businesses.







Skybar
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Posted: 12/28/2012 9:42:11 PM

But I worry if they win this, it opens the door for any company to decide they suddenly have a religious/moral objection to birth control when really they just want to save money.

and that could happen since one can not be a Christian one day and be one the next day.

What BO supporters/donors are getting a pass complying with it?


Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the families own are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not have secular rights.

they're not asking for secular rights. just their religious (constitutional) rights.


They don't get to pick and choose which parts of the law of the land they follow. Just like other businesses don't.

why not? BO does.


If they're going to close over something so ridiculous then be done with them.

gee. I bet you're for that ridiculous idea of free bc - aren't you?


congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

doesn't say individual person or bz - or put a restriction on one over the other. Same with for profit vs non profit. Doesn't say BO can pick 'n choose either.

I've heard that HL won't comply. I figure they won't pay the fine. We'll see what BO does with that. It IS headed back to the SC.


The government should stop imposing its beliefs on religious businesses. There IS separation of church and state in this country but you would never know it recently. The state is imposing force on far too many religious institutions.

That ISN'T in our constitution. It IS why TJ received a letter from the Danbury church and replied to it using that phrase (about 10 yrs AFTER the constitution). It was to reassure the church that the government would stay out of church bz. The church (religion) was very much a part of our government back then.





"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

Tam2
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Posted: 12/28/2012 9:45:50 PM
Well said Ms. Tyler & snowsilver! The separation was to keep gov't out of religion not the other way around.

ETA: I forgot, skybar is right, the separation of church & state was only in a letter, not the constitution.


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Posted: 12/28/2012 9:48:51 PM

The government should stop imposing its beliefs on religious businesses. There IS separation of church and state in this country but you would never know it recently. The state is imposing force on far too many religious institutions.


Hobby Lobby is NOT a religious business or institution.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




Scando3
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Posted: 12/28/2012 9:57:42 PM
I thought I understood that Hobby Lobby did cover birth control.
They do not want to cover the morning after pill.
Is this incorrect?

Berty22
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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:08:45 PM
"How many privately owned restaurants and bars, located on privately owned property, can make the decision to allow smoking in their buildings? Maybe the owners smoke and want to allow smoking in their buildings, and if the people working there don't like it they can work elsewhere, and people can eat and drink elsewhere.

There are many government mandates involving private business that are deemed acceptable as being for the greater good. The personal beliefs of the owners have no bearing on the business and are therefore irrelevant."
-----------------------

Yes! very well stated.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:19:15 PM

I thought I understood that Hobby Lobby did cover birth control.
They do not want to cover the morning after pill.
Is this incorrect?


Nope. Not incorrect.



Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:20:34 PM
So now, the greater good of society is force coverage of Plan B. Not birth control per se, but Plan B.


Tracey

Skybar
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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:20:56 PM

Hobby Lobby is NOT a religious business or institution.

doesn't matter. Every area of a Christian's life is part of it. Just like CFA.

The constitution doesn't do away with religious rights while running a bz, doing bz with others or even being employed by someone else.


The personal beliefs of the owners have no bearing on the business and are therefore irrelevant.

not according to our constitution




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

lucyg819
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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:21:09 PM

Well said Ms. Tyler & snowsilver! The separation was to keep gov't out of religion not the other way around.

And the Supreme Court has pretty well established that the 1st amendment also covers keeping religion OUT of government as well.

Fortunately for the rest of us, you people don't get to make the rules.


LUCYG
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Me GOP
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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:22:22 PM

Fortunately for the rest of us, you people don't get to make the rules.


Wow.


Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:24:04 PM
The greater good is to provide complete medical insurance for all workers. There are religions that won't allow blood transfusions, and no doubt more than few of those followers are business owners of one type or another, and no doubt provide insurance that covers the procedure.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:27:03 PM
BS. Complete medical insurance? What plan, INCLUDING the ACA is complete. It isn't.



Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:30:19 PM
Duh. They're a private corporation.

Hobbylobby.com

And apparently they have listed Christian messages on religious holidays on their site since 1997. Interesting.

I've never been to one! They're not around me. Well, Fredericksburg, but it's in a shopping mecca that I don't want to go to; crazy crowded.



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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:41:31 PM
If that's the kind of nit picking you want have at it. I never said ACA or any other plan was complete or perfect. I said the greater good, which is what your question addressed, was complete coverage. It is a goal, and ACA is a step toward it.







"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts




Kelpea
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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:49:25 PM

The separation was to keep gov't out of religion not the other way around.


Huh? Well, here's the ACTUAL first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."




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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:57:25 PM
I had no question. I made a statement. Just as you did. I'm not nitpicking. It is the question at hand in this scenario.


Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 10:58:24 PM
has ANYONE here seen the new studies that show that Plan B does NOT stop implantation of a fertilized egg? that is only delays the release of the egg and maybe thickens the mucus to slow down the swimmers, but studies show the pill does not "kill a baby". Even the Mayo Clinic is saying this. There is another "plab b" type pill, called Ella, and this is from the NY Times:


European medical authorities have not mentioned an effect on implantation on Ella’s label, and after months of scrutiny, Ella was approved for sale in overwhelmingly Catholic Italy, where laws would have barred it if it could be considered to induce abortion, said Erin Gainer, chief executive of Ella’s manufacturer, Paris-based HRA Pharma.


here's the article :

NY Times

I personally just think this is another politicized "fact" not based on science that pro-life, anti-Obamacare proponents trot out to get out of paying for it. I don't think many of these companies that are so against plan b even know what the hell they're talking about.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:02:16 PM
Yeah, the gov't won't establish a religion & won't prohibit the free exercise of it...


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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:04:16 PM
From your article.


Labels inside every box of morning-after pills, drugs widely used to prevent pregnancy after sex, say they may work by blocking fertilized eggs from implanting in a woman’s uterus. Respected medical authorities, including the National Institutes of Health and the Mayo Clinic, have said the same thing on their Web sites.




Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:07:46 PM
yes, and that was before studies showed that it did not happen after fertilization. the company that makes plan b have asked repeatedly for that to be removed from the label. it's ridiculous to keep trotting out that statement when studies are showing it's NOT TRUE. also from the article:


But an examination by The New York Times has found that the federally approved labels and medical Web sites do not reflect what the science shows. Studies have not established that emergency contraceptive pills prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb, leading scientists say. Rather, the pills delay ovulation, the release of eggs from ovaries that occurs before eggs are fertilized, and some pills also thicken cervical mucus so sperm have trouble swimming.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:12:06 PM
And a link to the actual studies?


Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:14:18 PM
Even within your own statements. You say NOT TRUE. But even within the quote you put forth the article says studies have not established.

Not established does not equal not true in my mind. Especially from a scientific standpoint.



Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:19:23 PM
I also want to make clear, that I personally have no issue with the Plan B drug. But I do have an issue with the government forcing private business owners to go against their religious convictions to comply.

It isn't inconsistent either, since I was against the bailouts. If a private business fails, or doesn't offer the same benefits as other companies, then let them compete, fail or thrive.



Tracey

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:21:34 PM
studies:

posted on NIH another

you can go to wikipedia and find hundreds of studies, published in periodicals, dealing with this issue.

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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:23:09 PM
and one more before I go to bed

also on NIH

alittleintrepid
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 345,847
November 2007
Posts: 2,438
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Posted: 12/28/2012 11:25:07 PM

The vast majority of people who are pro-life believe that life begins at conception - not "implantation".


Is implantation in quotation marks because there are people that believe it is a made-up thing? (This is a serious question. I'm not trying to be snarky.)

Snowballsmom
PeaFixture

PeaNut 166,868
September 2004
Posts: 3,601
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Posted: 12/29/2012 12:11:49 AM
First, I am not a highly religious person. I do believe that people have the right to believe what they believe in and that it can be private if you want it that way.

I did apply to HL, knowing full well it was founded by a person who had strong religious beliefs. Part of the reason I did apply there was because I respected their decision that family is more important than money. I also liked the fact that they closed early, and so there wouldn't be late nights (most nights...sometimes during Christmas there were some late nights). I loved that I could plan weekends knowing full well I was always off on Sunday, and in fact I felt we had a very, very fair schedule.

They do NOT push their beliefs on their employees by any means, unless you consider their hours and being closed on holidays as imposing their beliefs on us.

There were definitely things I wish were done differently but their respect for family time wasn't one of them. Overall I had a good experience working there, and now that I don't, it will be sad to see them close if they do. I still enjoy shopping there and feel they have better selection than M's or J's.

At least they are fighting for what they believe is right, just as I did when I needed a special orthotic for my feet and the insurance wouldn't cover them b/c they weren't considered durable medical equipment. Well yes they are, in my not so medical opinion b/c they don't need to be replaced like other things. They were also a medical necessity. I fought for months for the right to have them covered. My doctor fought like crazy for me too. Guess what? I got them covered.


In Memory of my mom, who passed January 21, 2007
In Memory of my Uncle, who passed away January 21, 2008
***********************************************************]
NEW BLOG: www.paperika.blogspot.com

myetsy: paperika.etsy.com
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