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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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Loc: Colorado
 |  Posted: 12/1/2012 2:08:18 PM
However, that assumes that people who are adults working in fast food places have a support system that would enable them to actually go to school. Many do not. Many people are relegated by either their own personal limitations (i.e., learning disability) or circumstance to these low paying jobs. For many, "saving up" to go to school is just not possible, and often they aren't savvy enough to understand the ins and outs of applying for and getting financial aid (how many threads do we have here each year about college bound kids having no clue whatsoever how to fill out a FAFSA form and the peamothers doing it for them?)
yes, I understand that. There will be people who cannot make it through college. Thanks to the widespread elimination of voc tech classes in our high schools, we have a shortage of plumbers and electricians, mechanics, drywallers, etc. and an overabundance of people available to roll burritos and flip burgers. The "trades" is where people who weren't good at academics or didn't enjoy them used to end up with jobs very adequate to feed their families.
I know for a fact that even after the recession started in my previous hometown, contactors could not find qualified people to put up framing, no matter how high a wage they offered. They joines with the cc to start a program to train people so they could actually hire them. Just as an example. My point being that we didn't get to this point purely through the uncaring attitude of fast food chains, which is implied by the OP and others.
However, are we to demand that private business raise wages, not to the point that is affordable in their overall business plan, but to support both the people who COULD do better but don't wish to or can't figure out the FAFSA, as well as the people who will never be college bound? It's like killing a fly with a hammer. And it's putting a burden on private business that is inappropriate and will kill jobs.
Following the implication on this thread to its logical conclusion, it seems that some of you want people paid a "living wage", which is of course open to interpretation. What is a living wage in one city in the county I came from in CA is entirely different from a living wage in another city in the same county. A city less than a 15 minute drive. And the definition of a living wage is...can pay the rent, stick an antenna on the roof, and buy groceries, while taking public transportation to work? Or can pay the rent, order cable, buy groceries AND go out to eat, as well as buy, maintain, and insure a vehicle? Enough to have a cell phone? A smart phone? Whose standard of living are we talking about for the "living wage"? Living wage for a single adult vs a married man with 3 kids?
We therefore run into yet another problem. While we have concerns for people who can't get a better job, some people can. So let's say we pay everyone more, when some could get other jobs or don't actually need to make a living wage. Not because they are of that much value to the business, because they're still doing the same job, selling the widgets priced the same, which is what people are willing to pay for widgets. Because someone decided that people (general) 'need' to make that higher wage. Like everyone is the same and has the same capabilities and the same expenses. Does anyone really believe that?
The problem here is that fewer people will work. You will have 5 people working at $14 an hour, where 7 could work at $10 an hour. That raises unemployment. Maybe those extra 2 people are kids who need to earn money because a) working is part of growing up and b ) their families can't afford all the things they might want, like money for dates, going out with friends, etc. But those 2 will be shut out of the labor market because the employer can only afford to pay 5 people. And 2 of those may not actually need to support a family. They may be using it as a stepping stone to college or another career, or to supplement the income of a spouse.
Further, if we start saying that employers need to pay what people NEED to be making to work, that's a slippery slope we left behind a long time ago. Because not everyone needs to make the same to live. A single woman needs less than a father supporting a wife and 2 small children where the cost of daycare would eat up more than the wife can make, making her working a non-starter. And they need more than the disabled young man living in a group home but needing to work and can't get any other job.
I think that idea that the employer needs to pay people what they need to make a living and stay off food stamps comes dangerously close to someone making a determination that one person 'needs' to be making $15 an hour, but another person working alongside does not.
And if we pick an arbitrary number that some govt bureaucrat figures is about right to live locally at some arbitrary standard of living, you will STILL have people who can't pay for what they want with what they are being paid, and others who are paid far more than they are worth to the business owner.
I think we left that judgment concept (of paying people what they need, out of wage setting several decades ago when we decided no, the employer CANNOT decide the guy supporting a family is worth more pay than the man who has no kids and has a wife helping support the household.
Maybe it's a govt official saying 'pay people in city A $15 an hour, and pay people in city B $12 an hour because that's "living wage" for the area, but the people are selling the same burgers, and there's a disparity of wages for the same job, determined by government fiat.
Maybe employee A lives next door to employee B but they work in City A and B respectively, same distance from their residences, but get paid different wages. And employee A who lives in city C works alongside employee D who works in city A, and now do they get paid based on where they work or where they live? See how "pay them what they need" is problematic?
We need to pay people what they are worth to the business, and that is determined by the business based on market conditions for their business model (what customers will pay for the goods or services, how much competition there is to provide that, what the disposable income is for the area, etc) as well as the labor market.
That works really well when the government creates policies that allows businesses to make their own decisions and grows the economy so that people have choices of where to look for a job and the labor market is such that there are more jobs than people to fill them.
When government strangles industries or manipulates the marketplace with regulations and tells employers what they can pay and how that pay is given (in addition to how much they have to spend for other got regulations, like environmental), businesses shut down, people have less choice of where to work, the available number of workers rises, wages fall.
This IS how the economy functions. I know some of you think there is some magic transformation to the basic economic principles that have been in place for hundreds of years, but imagining or reading that it works a whole new way does not make it so.
Before proposing sweeping changes to a system you need to genuinely comprehend how the system works now. Only then can you soberly analyze what effects the proposed changes will have, both desired and undesireable.
No law of this magnitude gets passed without unintended consequences. To imagine that a change will ONLY have great benefit and no problems is to not understand fully the change you are proposing, nor the system you are switching from.
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"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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obliolait
BucketHead
PeaNut 550,788
April 2012
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 | Posted: 12/1/2012 2:08:37 PM
It's not a nasty thing to say if it's true. And I think it is. On more than three occasions I've asked an employee behind the counter (not the register person) for something and they had no idea what I was even asking. They didn't speak english and didn't understand english.
I know I'm just assuming here, but if you were born and raised in the US, and went to public school, you've learned english. *shrugs*
I hope that you are not a product of the public school system otherwise things are very grim indeed. you ma'am are feeble minded. | |
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smilesnpeacesigns
PeaFixture
PeaNut 341,236
October 2007
Posts: 3,414
Layouts: 1
 | Posted: 12/1/2012 2:48:10 PM
Well, maybe no one will pay you to pick that particular item off the side of the road, but I'd bet there are dog owners in your area who have more money than time or interest in cleaning up after their pet. I know there are where I live in dog city USA. People do actually make a business of cleaning up people's yards of that particular substance. Not glamorous, and you won't retire off of it, but it would give you some money and a job to list on a resume, as well as get you out to meet people who might keep you in mind when some other task or job opening comes up. Just a thought.
The town I live in has about5,000 people in it. Many of them are self employed and do that type of work, if you were to look in our local adds the difference of "help wanted" and "Services offered" is phenomenal, there are about 2 help wanted adds compared to 30 services offered. My OWN services offered ad reads, will do any odd job you need done, cleaning homes, apt.s yard work, dog walking, personal aid, and cooking, references available and reasonable prices. Please call xxx
So yea, I already thought of that. But hey thanks for the advise.
We are moving into a larger city with more factory jobs available it has just taken us a long time to save the money to move, because it isn't like we can move and have money with in a week. I know it will get better but what I am saying is people that want to work just can't find jobs.
Something needs to change and I hope that someone out there is smart enough to come up with an answer so even people who have a minimal education ( for what ever reason ) but want to work and live on their own resources can. |
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*Sara*
insert clever Pea Title here
PeaNut 36,466
April 2002
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Loc: upstate NY
 | Posted: 12/1/2012 2:54:01 PM
I know I'm just assuming here, but if you were born and raised in the US, and went to public school, you've learned english. *shrugs*
They could be legal immigrants who came here after their education. Or perhaps they're legal immigrants who were not educated in their country of origin.
Or they're like my great-grandparents who didn't learn a lick of English despite being a naturalized citizens and living in the U.S. for 60+ years. Somehow they still managed to work and contribute to society *shrugs* |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 2:57:14 PM
So yea, I already thought of that. But hey thanks for the advise.
I hope you took it in the spirit intended, really I do. I was afraid you or someone else might slap me indignantly with "well, you just told her she can pick up s*it if she REALLY wants to work, what a b*tch".
You said you have a personal services ad. Have you considered (again, I'm trying to give ideas, not be rude) walking up to a business with, say, a dirty front window, handing them your card, and telling them you'd like to clean their window at no charge, and if they in the future want to hire a service to clean the window, you'd be delighted to have them contact you? it could be they HAVE a service, but they're not doing their job. That's just an example of ways you could get your name and reputation out there as someone who really wants to do the job and will do it fabulously, and maybe pick up business more actively than might occur with just an ad among many ads. I'm just trying to be creative, not be unkind in any way.
Another option might be to look at the daycare requirements in your area. Could you care for one child at a time in your home legally? You could perhaps market your services as a 'sick child' daycare - some place people could put their child who is contagious and can't go to school or daycare but needs a place to be for a couple of hours while mom or dad arranges to take the rest of the day off after dealing with necessary meetings.
Do you like to shop, or wrap? Would anyone pay you to take a list and shop for their groceries or Christmas gifts and wrap them, possibly take them to the post office or Fed Ex? I had a friend who did quite well grocery shopping for working moms and the elderly who didn't enjoy it, and she charged a minimum of $10 or 10% of the bill, whichever was more.
I hope you can find something that will help you financially soon.
Living in a town with very few people is probably a far bigger issue than your capabilities and willingness to work. Your plan to move to a bigger area with a wider job market is really the next logical step, so I'm glad to hear that you are seeing that as well. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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misshair
PeaAddict
PeaNut 263,894
June 2006
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 | Posted: 12/1/2012 3:13:03 PM
I agree some working minimum wage jobs can't or don't have what it takes to get a second or higher paying or college-degree job. If that were the case, many people in this country would be living better than they are. Not everyone working fast food or minimum wage jobs beyond the age of 18 are doing it because they are 'lazy' or do not 'want to do better for themselves'..some truly can't and did not have trust funds or tap into spouses or other ways to provide a better life for themselves.
The cost of living in recent years has skyrocketed. Even the 'rich' are crying about the cost of things.
Minimum wage meanwhile has pretty much stayed the same, if a slight increase. Certainly not enough to keep up with the cost of living.
Not to mention those who do work fast food work ttheir tails off.
Some people DO find better jobs, or have the energy to work 2 or 3 jobs or get degrees or find better ways to provide for themselves. Some simply CAN'T.
Those who say 'get a second job' or 'go back to school' I really wish could walk a mile in some of these people's shoes for a month, with the person's health and skills and aptitudes.
Not to mention this country has had a job crisis/unemployment issues and has for years now..
And again, it is not always out of laziness or unwillingness to work.
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smilesnpeacesigns
PeaFixture
PeaNut 341,236
October 2007
Posts: 3,414
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| Posted: 12/1/2012 3:19:19 PM
I hope you took it in the spirit intended, really I do. I was afraid you or someone else might slap me indignantly with "well, you just told her she can pick up s*it if she REALLY wants to work, what a b*tch".
I didn't take it badly, I had not thought of personally going out to the shops around like that with card. That's a pretty good idea.
I'm just putting it out there that there are a lot of people out in the world who just aren't really smart. I'm not disabled but honestly I am not smart in any sense of the word and I know and love that America runs on ability rather then class, but for those of us with out ability we still want to do our part and at 7.50 min. wage it's hard.
It will get better we are determined and will make it , it's taking so much longer then we thought it would. |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 3:22:33 PM
The cost of living in recent years has skyrocketed. Even the 'rich' are crying about the cost of things.
Of course it has. Again, the law of supply and demand. We printed more and more dollars, and thus the dollar is worth less than it used to be. If it's worth less, then it takes more to buy goods.
The quantitative easing touted by our current administration as a wonderful way to help the economy has harmed the very people you are talking about, and they have no idea what happened, and certainly don't give credit where credit is due for the fact that gas or milk is no longer $1.79 a gallon but is now $3.79 a gallon, but their own wages didn't go up to cover it. Look at how many hours of minimum wage it takes to fill up a 20 gallon tank now, vs how many it took in 2008. That's the result of this administrations economics plan.
Understanding the entire range of the issues and being willing to place blame accurately for those policies that created the problems you want to solve is crucial to solving them. Otherwise, in 4 years, the problems will be worse, despite all the feel-good bandaid fixes that are headed our way. All the campaigning and salesmanship in the world won't make a bad solution actually work. But it will get bad policies passed to the approval of people who once again don't fully understand what is being done to them. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,797
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 3:29:50 PM
I'm just putting it out there that there are a lot of people out in the world who just aren't really smart. I'm not disabled but honestly I am not smart in any sense of the word and I know and love that America runs on ability rather then class, but for those of us with out ability we still want to do our part and at 7.50 min. wage it's hard.
And I'm putting it out there that I'm sorry our government run schools brought you to a place where you were made to feel "not smart in any sense of the word" when you no doubt have abilities that are not academic but exceed those of people whose 'smarts' are in academics.
I'm sorry your school brought you to a place where you didn't have the opportunities to develop the skills you had into marketable skills, and you didn't have the support to figure out how to transform your natural abilities and interests into skills that would be desireable at this time.
Taking vocational tech out of schools and replacing them with the philosophy that everyone can go to college and lets push every last student that direction come hell or high water was a huge disservice to the economy as well as to students, because frankly a lot of what was taught in those classes or the apprenticeships that were a natural followon are jobs that are ALWAYS needed and cannot be done in China for customers in America. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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eebud
Doxie Pea Mom
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October 2002
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angievp
Ideay pues?
PeaNut 143,106
April 2004
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Loc: Miami
| Posted: 12/1/2012 4:53:42 PM
It's not a nasty thing to say if it's true. And I think it is. On more than three occasions I've asked an employee behind the counter (not the register person) for something and they had no idea what I was even asking. They didn't speak english and didn't understand english.
I know I'm just assuming here, but if you were born and raised in the US, and went to public school, you've learned english. *shrugs*
You're an asshole of monumental proportions. | |
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dynalady
My soul is fed with needle and thread
PeaNut 25,620
December 2001
Posts: 20,150
Layouts: 49
Loc: Sweet Home Chicago
| Posted: 12/1/2012 5:00:17 PM
It's not a nasty thing to say if it's true. And I think it is
Just because you think so doesn't make it the truth. If being true is your criteria then you admit you are being nasty, which is much too nice a word to describe you, since you have no way of knowing the truth. |
   
"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts
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sagehelena
PeaAddict
PeaNut 270,919
July 2006
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 5:27:17 PM
Taking vocational tech out of schools and replacing them with the philosophy that everyone can go to college and lets push every last student that direction come hell or high water was a huge disservice to the economy as well as to students.
Indeed. I taught special education for a year at a middle school in California. A group of kids with IQs of about 50-75. The school had a beautiful group kitchen, laundry and shop area. All of it closed, with no classes available. The got rid of all the home ec and vocational classes so they could focus solely on "academics" and freaking test scores. WTF. Worst idea ever. It was a really hard job trying to design a curriculum for my students when there was nothing at their level useful for them to do. |
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cycworker
On dry runs Santa drives the Isuzu
PeaNut 159,331
July 2004
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Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 | Posted: 12/1/2012 6:02:07 PM
Look4angels, if you are so sure that paying fast food workers more would solve all our woes, by all means go in and tell them you want to pay $10 for your Big Mac next time.
I have a better idea... keep the prices the same. Simply create legislation either 1)provides a guaranteed mininum annual income for people based on family size, which provides enough for them to be self sufficient, and fund it through taxes on the profits of these companies or 2)require these places to stop overpaying their execs, accept a lower profit margin and increase the wages for their low end workers.
I don't care which option is chosen, but one or the other needs to happen. Either they reinvest more of their profits into their workforce, or we take a bigger share of those profits and do it for them. |
-Tania... but people who like me call me `Tang`
The secret of a good life is to have the right loyalties and hold them in the right scale of values.
Norman Thomas
US socialist politician (1884 - 1968)
Human and civil rights should NEVER be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Minorities gain legal equality only when those in power come to understand that their unearned privilege is wrong, and enforce change upon society. - ProfessorZed | |
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obliolait
BucketHead
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April 2012
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| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:04:55 PM
A Big Mac should indeed be $10 to ensure that employees are paid a fair wage and to pay for the environmental degradation that mcdonald's business is responsible for. | |
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queenofthesloths
StuckOnPeas
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January 2004
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| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:14:17 PM
Maybe if the fast food workers were better paid and were allowed to work enough hours to support their families, they would care more and do a better job and stay AT the job, and then we wouldn't need to have so many "my bad fast food worker experience" threads. | |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:23:24 PM
I have a better idea... keep the prices the same. Simply create legislation that tells McDonalds that instead of overpaying their execs, and still making a billion dollars (or whatever the amount is) in profits, they need to cut those wages plus accept a lower profit margin - somewhere between 25% to 50% lower - and increase the wages for their low end workers.
If you don't like what a private business does, then you are welcome to open competition, refuse to buy their product, and don't apply for a job there.
Telling a private business how they may or may not run their business in regard to price, compensation, profit margin, is not the place of government.
It all sounds nice until YOU are the business owner, which many people on this board are, and have no idea, because they've invested via mutual funds. It all sounds nice when the rules are something you think is a good idea. What happens if someone decides that everyone needs to be home for dinner with their families, and therefore tells McDonald's they can't be open between 5 and 8pm in order for their employees to be home with their families? Wow, good idea, except...not everyone lives the way some government agency thinks they should, and such a regulation would be crippling to business. That's a dramatic example, but the ideas thrown around by the corporation haters are just as damaging, and a damaged business hires NO ONE.
The fact is, that when telling business how to run itself, you won't be able to resist the urge to keep going, until you are making decisions on behalf of business that will damage or destroy it. Government regulations are not the magic that some of you think they are. Every regulation has an intended and an unintended consequence, and until you are privy to the inner workings of a business, instead of someone reading incendiary articles written by people with an agenda (and yes, Yahoo is very sympathetic to the Democratic/liberal cause, given that their DC bureau chief was fired for a very biased remark caught on mike during the campaign), you don't really know what your smashingly great idea will actually end up doing to the business as well as the people who work for it.
Allowing government to dictate business decisions is a slippery slope, and beyond the capability of a government to do without damage. When governments are run efficiently themselves, have balanced budgets and provide outstanding service at the best possible cost, as business itself has to do to survive, then they might have time to dictate how private business is run. However, no one can determine the best way to run every kind of business, and thus even if government had time, they'd not have the expertise.
Maybe in Canada it's perfectly fine for a government agency to dictate business decisions. I don't think that's the right course for America to follow. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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Seanna.
PeaFixture
PeaNut 142,904
April 2004
Posts: 3,484
Layouts: 20
Loc: TN
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:24:13 PM
With respect to that graphic with the assertion that in no state can you work a full-time minimum wage job and afford a 2 bedroom apartment--that is not true for at least my state.
It is completely possible to live in my town (it's a university town) in a two-bedroom apartment and work a minimum wage job. I'm not saying it'd be an awesome apartment, but it would be decent, safe, and you would be able to walk to work and to get your groceries if you didn't have access to transportation. You could probably even afford a cell phone and cable/internet, neither of which I consider necessities. If you got a roommate, you'd even be able to put a little money aside. |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
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Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:26:37 PM
Look4angels, if you are so sure that paying fast food workers more would solve all our woes, by all means go in and tell them you want to pay $10 for your Big Mac next time. Because that is exactly what will happen if people who think like you keep making the real job creators pay more than the market can justify.
Then when your McDonald's worker gets hours cut or laid off AND still has to pay $10 for a Big Mac, will you feel better?
How about you just put your money where your mouth is, and next time you eat out, leave a tip that is equal to the amount of the bill. That will help that poor underpaid, abused server and you can feel all warm and fuzzy.
Quit trying to run the lives of everyone else - you keep your money and do what you want with it, and we will do the same
Oh Lynlam, you're such a silly girl, "I" am not making these people protest for higher incomes, "THEY" are doing it themselves, because "THEY" can't afford to live off the money they are being paid, by companies who are raking in huge profits.
McDonald's profits increased by 130% this year in the middle of this recession, they CAN afford to pay their employees a decent wage, but they chose not to. So they really shouldn't be shocked when their employee's are revolting because of those wages.
You, of all people who is constantly screaming that the government should get people off of assistance, should be "mad as hell" at McDonald's for paying their employee's such a low wage that they still qualify for "YOUR" tax dollars, in the form of food stamps, housing, and healthcare..
So despite your claims that "you" will stop shopping at McDonald's, it won't change the fact that "YOUR" dollars are supporting these workers, the only difference is whether McDonald's pay's for their own workers, out of their massive profits, or if the government has to pay them in the form of government assistance. Personally I prefer McDonald's to pay their employee's a decent wage, out of their own pocket and leave the tax dollars alone.
But you can't have it both ways, either you pay them, or McDonald's does...you chose.
Raising the minimum wage is NOT the only cause of inflation, if that was true, why are we experiencing inflation during the years that minimum wages have not been raised? |
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peapermint
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 9,321
January 2001
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Loc: all up in your business
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Mrs_Tyler
Sorting Laundry
PeaNut 197,836
March 2005
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Loc: Enjoying the humid continental climate zone.
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:28:54 PM
1)provides a guaranteed mininum annual income for people based on family size, which provides enough for them to be self sufficient, and fund it through taxes on the profits of these companies or 2)require these places to stop overpaying their execs, accept a lower profit margin and increase the wages for their low end workers.
I don't care which option is chosen, but one or the other needs to happen.
They tried that in Russia once. Back when it was the USSR. Turned out that it just made everyone equally poor. | |
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Seanna.
PeaFixture
PeaNut 142,904
April 2004
Posts: 3,484
Layouts: 20
Loc: TN
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:36:17 PM
Read Scratch Beginnings by Adam Shepard. |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:37:43 PM
Large companies also tried screwing their workers constantly with horrible working conditions, and low wages, while still making huge profits, and that is how a lot of America became unionized. |
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ilovecookies
PeaAddict
PeaNut 506,197
April 2011
Posts: 1,998
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 | Posted: 12/1/2012 6:38:04 PM
I'm not even sure half the people that work at our local fast food places are legal citizens.
THIS is fucking disgusting.
Yes, it is. But then, consider the source. |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:51:24 PM
Smilesnpeace,
I truly feel for you and see people in your circumstances in my town constantly. Most people without jobs in our area, are like you, doing EVERYTHING they possibly can to find work, and it's just not there.
Too often when a decent job does become available it is immediately snatched up by someone's "friend" or relative, long before the opportunity makes it to the paper, which I don't have a problem with, but for those searching for work it's discouraging when it happens.
I sincerely feel for you, and your family, and wish you the best of luck in your job search.
(Not pertaining to you)
but I see lot's of people who are not capable of holding down anything more than a minimum wage job, and they are no less worthy of an apartment, and food than the highest college educated person I know.
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Mrs_Tyler
Sorting Laundry
PeaNut 197,836
March 2005
Posts: 24,080
Layouts: 246
Loc: Enjoying the humid continental climate zone.
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:53:17 PM
I see lot's of people who are not capable of holding down anything more than a minimum wage job, and they are no less worthy of an apartment, and food than the highest college educated person I know
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blondiek237
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 70,239
February 2003
Posts: 2,855
Layouts: 8
Loc: Massachusetts
| Posted: 12/1/2012 6:59:10 PM
When I was 30 (back in1995) I did not have a college degree and was making 18.5k a year. My mortgage was $1400 (gotta love that 14% interest rate) on a condo. I knew I needed to make more money, so I continued to work and took 2 classes at a time (so I qualified for student loans). I finished my associates at a community college then transferred. It took me 8 years(I had about a years worth of credits from my prior try at college) and I was exhausted, BUT I knew I needed to do this to get better money. It was the best thing I ever did. We cannot continue to raise minimum wage and think there will be no down side. I read somewhere(I don't remember where and I am not going to look for it now) that if the CEO of Walmart took no salary it would give each worker 0.01 cent an hour raise. It's easy to complain that those nasty CEO's are greedy and over paid BUT large companies are NOT where most people work. raise minimum wage to $20 a hour and in a few years people will be bitching that that is not enough. All these government regulation and mandates are killing small and medium sized businesses-example a company that I used to work for just laid off 2 workers because they had to hire a lobbiest to get through all the government red tape. That's 2 workers out of work just because of things that were supposed to help. Minimum wage was NEVER supposed to be a lifetime wage. And remember if you raise minimum wage to $12.00, then you either ave to give those making $12.00 a raise or risk losing potentially good workers.
Again most people do NOT work for huge multinational companies, they work for small and medium sized companies and these companies cannot afford all these mandates designed to "level the playing field". So keep doing nothing for yourself and just expect the government to stick it to those nasty rich CEO's (who have spent years bettering themselves and giving up time with their families-while you sat around bitching) and we will all be unemployed and on government assistance. | |
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Epeanymous
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 15,108
May 2001
Posts: 2,167
Layouts: 1
| Posted: 12/1/2012 7:03:01 PM
People who have college educations are unemployed. People who have graduate educations are unemployed. Skilled workers also are unemployed (the housing downturn took a lot of those folks with it). Real wages have been declining for people who are employed, unless they are quite fancy, for decades.
Let's please stop acting like if people are unemployed, or are employed but financially struggling, that it is because they are uneducated or unskilled or unmotivated. | |
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smilesnpeacesigns
PeaFixture
PeaNut 341,236
October 2007
Posts: 3,414
Layouts: 1
| Posted: 12/1/2012 7:06:35 PM
1)provides a guaranteed mininum annual income for people based on family size, which provides enough for them to be self sufficient, and fund it through taxes on the profits of these companies or 2)require these places to stop overpaying their execs, accept a lower profit margin and increase the wages for their low end workers.
I don't care which option is chosen, but one or the other needs to happen.
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They tried that in Russia once. Back when it was the USSR. Turned out that it just made everyone equally poor.
I was thinking that sounded a lot like communism...
I understand that money along with everything else runs down hill. When I worked in our factory I checked to make sure the jeans had no threads hanging, no rips, holes, etc. QC, my base pay (meaning the slowest I could go) was 7.50 as you got faster you got more money, so if you worked fast and efficiently your top pay was 14.25. After that raises were based on other things such as how long you were there, how many days you missed that kind of stuff.
Most companies shared their profits by paying employees what they are worth. When did that stop? Why did it stop? When is it going to go back to that? When someone can answer those questions that is when things will start looking up.
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,797
Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 7:36:56 PM
Most companies shared their profits by paying employees what they are worth. When did that stop? Why did it stop? When is it going to go back to that? When someone can answer those questions that is when things will start looking up.
Most companies STILL pay employees what they are worth. See my explanation of the labor market in a PP. They do not pay them according to need, although a few decades ago it was common to pay a man with a family to support more than the woman working beside him, on the theory she had a husband to help her or she was single and didn't need as much. We all see now that that was wrong, but the argument to pay people what they 'need to be making', or based on family size under cycworker's proposal, a theme that runs all through this thread, is way too close for comfort to that old system.
As for sharing their profits, many companies do that in the form of stock options and allowing employees to buy stock and profit when that stock increases with the performance of the company. IIRC Walmart is one of those companies. My husband's company is another that matches 401k contributions with equivalent company stock. And anyone who believes in their company and believes it will be profitable, as long as it's a publicly owned company can invest in stock and share the profits.
I think a lot of people forget that the profits of a company are not filling the home vaults of the executives with gold coins, they are paid out to shareholders and reinvested in the company for expansion, capital projects like buildings and equipment. If a company is public (issues stock), each share of stock is a piece of ownership of the company. It can be purchased and the purchaser can get a piece of those profits when the company makes a profit, or benefit from a more valuable company when the money is put back into the company for expansion. A little simplistic, but it does work that way. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 7:42:00 PM
That's the whole problem, the money stopped flowing downhill, and most or all of it went back uphill to the companies, and not to their employees.
They have just recorded record profits again. This chart shows wages paid vs profits:
Business Insider |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 7:50:20 PM
As for sharing their profits, many companies do that in the form of stock options and allowing employees to buy stock and profit when that stock increases with the performance of the company.
People are not going to buy into stock options if they can't afford to buy groceries or pay rent, and those same stocks would stop them from being able to receive government assistance to help feed their families, so stock options would work if you are making enough money already for food/rent, other wise they are useless to the minimum wage worker. |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 8:56:52 PM
Again most people do NOT work for huge multinational companies, they work for small and medium sized companies
Wal-Mart remains the #1 employer in the United States, so saying people are not working for them, just doesn't hold water. They also hold the title for who has the most employee's world wide. |
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sunny 5
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 472,024
June 2010
Posts: 2,082
Layouts: 0
| Posted: 12/1/2012 9:07:53 PM
companies are not reinvesting...they are sitting on piles of cash....
minimum wage...if it kept up with costs/inflation...would be 10.55. not 7,25. anyway, sf raised minimum wage, requires access for employees to health insurance...and we haven't fallen off the face of the earth. granted, most can't live on our minimum wage...young people share bedrooms and 4 people share 1 bedroom apts.
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Fraidyscrapper
Serious Interlocutor
PeaNut 38,100
May 2002
Posts: 12,480
Layouts: 0
Loc: Jersey Strong
| Posted: 12/1/2012 9:49:03 PM
I'm not even sure half the people that work at our local fast food places are legal citizens.
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What's an "illegal citizen"? |
| "The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy | |
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mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea
PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
Posts: 13,365
Layouts: 3
 | Posted: 12/1/2012 10:41:27 PM
I'm not even sure half the people that work at our local fast food places are legal citizens.
I know it has already been addressed, but seriously? First of all, why should you be sure? It is isn't your job to check. Second, as has already been said, there are lots of people who come here legally and can barely speak English. My hard working (and for whatever it is worth, in case you think that race is a factor in being legal, white) grandmother was one of them. |
| "Some people should exercise their compassion a little more and their mouth a little less."-- Burning Feather | |
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eebud
Doxie Pea Mom
PeaNut 52,841
October 2002
Posts: 31,028
Layouts: 25
| Posted: 12/1/2012 10:41:50 PM
Most companies shared their profits by paying employees what they are worth. When did that stop? Why did it stop?
What's funny is that the only job I have ever worked that didn't pay me based on the job I did, my worth to the company vs. other co-workers, was a union job. Everyone made the same amount regardless of whether you were their hardest worker or their biggest slacker. You wanted to do better and move up? Cool! You could do that by staying at your job. Again, how well you did your job didn't matter. Seniority was everything. If there was a job opening the next job grade up, the most seniority person who wants it, gets it. I think I will take my chances with the companies that so many here want to vilify. |
 
Hans on left, Bud in middle, Gretchen on right | |
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batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.
PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 31,839
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Loc: up on my high horse
| Posted: 12/1/2012 10:49:03 PM
They didn't speak english and didn't understand english.
I know I'm just assuming here, but if you were born and raised in the US, and went to public school, you've learned english. *shrugs*
That's a huge and largely incorrect assumption for many of the reasons given on this thread. 
Taking vocational tech out of schools and replacing them with the philosophy that everyone can go to college and lets push every last student that direction come hell or high water was a huge disservice to the economy as well as to students.
I agree.
What happened to the people screaming "no job is beneath you! If you have to feed you family, work at Walmart or McDonald's if you have to!" Uh, yeah, except they're not paying a living wage that people regardless of wealth or education need to live. They are people. I don't care if they are immigrants, laid-off professionals, high school drop outs, whatever. If they are willing to work, they should be able to put food on the tables, have a roof of some sort over their heads and pay for meds for their kids.
They don't deserved less b/c they aren't as smart as me, or b/c they were born into lesser circumstances. They are people. If the attitude is that they shouldn't expect to make a living wage at a fast food job, then you are making the dreaded welfare look very attractive. You want THAT to be the alternative? Or do you want people to work three jobs and not be with their families and have children unsupervised 24/7 so their educations suffer, so they get involved with drugs, so there is a vicious cycle.
Think about the big picture. |
OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.
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batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.
PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 31,839
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse
| Posted: 12/1/2012 10:50:12 PM
Read Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich.
That was a wonderfully eye-opening book for me. |
OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.
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batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.
PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 31,839
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:02:13 PM
That said, when Fraidy gets the definition of illegal citizen, I'd like Bumpea to address "celebrity president." I mean, a celebrity is someone with a public profile and influences day to day media. I would hope that is any US president. Bumpea? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
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OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.
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SabrinaM
Proud Member of THE MOB
PeaNut 5,735
August 2000
Posts: 24,764
Layouts: 2
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:10:27 PM
how are ALL these people in minimum wage jobs supposed to AFFORD a higher education? if they can't even afford home and food, how can they afford college? it's not like there is ALL this free money lying around to send these people to school. it's ridiculous.
This is what my husband did:
Right out of high school joined the military to qualify for the GI Bill. That paid for some of his BS degree in computer science. He graduates next semester with an MBA in Finance- paid for with student loans. If he weren't a caucasian male, he'd have qualified for a whole slew of grants and scholarships. Also, even though he is severely under-employed he makes "too much money" -- less than a teacher's salary (seriously).
So. Before people start talking about how broke-ass-broke people can't afford to go to school, get your facts straight. We're doing it! It sucks right now and is hard work on the entire family but we're moving forward without the help of handouts and public assistance.
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Sabrina
Recession: When your neighbor loses his job
Depression: When you lose yours
Recovery: When Obama loses his
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:13:42 PM
What's funny is that the only job I have ever worked that didn't pay me based on the job I did, my worth to the company vs. other co-workers, was a union job. Everyone made the same amount regardless of whether you were their hardest worker or their biggest slacker. You wanted to do better and move up? Cool! You could do that by staying at your job. Again, how well you did your job didn't matter. Seniority was everything. If there was a job opening the next job grade up, the most seniority person who wants it, gets it. I think I will take my chances with the companies that so many here want to vilify.
This wasn't true at some of the union jobs I, or my brothers worked at. If you were a crappy worker then you didn't get called out for jobs as fast, because the contractor, and foreman has/had the option of requesting a certain person regardless of where they were on the union rolls.
I worked in the construction trade, where jobs were subcontracted, (which is happening a lot now) and practically no one has lot's of seniority because the jobs didn't last long enough for you to acquire any with the subcontractor. You had union seniority but that didn't apply to the subcontractor, or how fast you received your next job.
Normally one perhaps two foreman per trade - Laborer, Electrical, Ironwork, Carpenter, Pipe fitters, etc..where retained each year, and the rest were laid off till another shut down, or outage. When construction/repairs would begin again, the subcontractor could/would call out who he/she wanted, often based on that person's previous work performance during the last job. |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,797
Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:14:37 PM
People are not going to buy into stock options if they can't afford to buy groceries or pay rent, and those same stocks would stop them from being able to receive government assistance to help feed their families, so stock options would work if you are making enough money already for food/rent, other wise they are useless to the minimum wage worker.
The question was why don't companies share profits with workers. The fact is that many, many companies do. Is there a long history of companies sharing profits with low-skilled minimum wage workers? Not that I'm aware of. Again, minimum wage jobs were intended to be entry level, and you would work hard and move up or move on to another job with your skills and experience.
People are dreaming of a utopia where people doing unskilled jobs are paid as well as people who have spent time getting education and experience. How is that a realistic expectation? yes there are people who are unable to do any job above the basic restaurant or other unskilled job, but that is not the vast majority. Expecting the employers of minimum wage, unskilled workers to solve the economic problems instead of expecting government to create a regulatory environment that provides more business, thus more competition for workers and higher wages, and an expanding piece of the economic pie for everyone, is going at the problem backwards.
But after 4 years of being told that businesses are greedy and the biggest problem with our economy and the reason people can't find better jobs, well, I guess I shouldn't expect better comprehension of what would actually solve problems. People who are educated and skilled are working low wage unskilled jobs because the economy is NOT expanding as it should, businesses are in an environment of profound uncertainty of what the government will throw at them next. If you think the cost of doing business is going to rise because the government is churning out regulations like crazy without regard to cost - surprise! You are neither going to spend money expanding your business nor are you going to crank up the salaries of people already working for you, or hire more.
I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall explaining basic economic principles. This stuff has been in the news, but people just don't want to hear that it might be government policy, not greedy entrepreneurs and CEO's who are making it hard for business to expand and increase wages and employment. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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ScrapWench*
Seems a pity to miss such a good pudding.
PeaNut 247,139
February 2006
Posts: 18,706
Layouts: 0
Loc: Spokane, WA
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:19:28 PM
Their time would be better spent looking for a new (or second) job that pays more. No one in their right mind should expect a fast food job alone to cover anyone's base needs.
Mighty bitchy of you. 
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angievp
Ideay pues?
PeaNut 143,106
April 2004
Posts: 6,644
Layouts: 36
Loc: Miami
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:20:17 PM
we're moving forward without the help of handouts and public assistance.
No you're not. You're getting student loans. If they are federally subsidized student loans, then you ARE getting help from the government. | |
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SabrinaM
Proud Member of THE MOB
PeaNut 5,735
August 2000
Posts: 24,764
Layouts: 2
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:20:46 PM
companies are not reinvesting...they are sitting on piles of cash....
Why do you think that is?
Uncertain economy?
Lack of consumer spending?
Obamacare?
Upcoming fiscal cliff?
Many companies are paying 2013 dividends prior to Dec 31st 2012 for a reason.
I know this is going to come as a shock to some, but most companies are in the business to make money. The more the government over-reaches the more companies work harder to hold on to it. |
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Sabrina
Recession: When your neighbor loses his job
Depression: When you lose yours
Recovery: When Obama loses his
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:26:18 PM
So. Before people start talking about how broke-ass-broke people can't afford to go to school, get your facts straight. We're doing it! It sucks right now and is hard work on the entire family but we're moving forward without the help of handouts and public assistance.
Your husband is received part of his education on the G.I Bill, which is GOVERNMENT funded aka assistance, so you are also receiving those handouts. I don't blame him for taking advantage of that funding but you are assuming that EVERYONE is of age, and ability to join the military service, and has access to those funds, which is not the case.
My daughter went back to school and got her degree while working full time, and caring for two small children, so you can't tell me a thing about hard work.
Could she have done that without me watching those kids? NO! Not everyone has a support system like you AND your husband, or my daughter and me, and I don't begrudge them a pay raise to help them eat and afford rent. |
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look4angel
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 49,444
September 2002
Posts: 2,745
Layouts: 181
Loc: Tn
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:30:37 PM
I know this is going to come as a shock to some, but most companies are in the business to make money. The more the government over-reaches the more companies work harder to hold on to it.
SO which is it, you want companies to pay decent wages for employees, or do "YOU" want to pay those workers by subsidizing them with government "handouts" as you like to put it? If handouts are your choice, the stop complaining when your taxes go up. Because one of the two is going to happen, you chose.. |
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ScrapWench*
Seems a pity to miss such a good pudding.
PeaNut 247,139
February 2006
Posts: 18,706
Layouts: 0
Loc: Spokane, WA
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:30:41 PM
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I'm not even sure half the people that work at our local fast food places are legal citizens.
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How do you know this?? Do they have and accent and dark skin? That must make them illegal.
What a nasty thing to say Squillen.
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It's not a nasty thing to say if it's true. And I think it is. On more than three occasions I've asked an employee behind the counter (not the register person) for something and they had no idea what I was even asking. They didn't speak english and didn't understand english.
I know I'm just assuming here, but if you were born and raised in the US, and went to public school, you've learned english. *shrugs*
And I thought your bitchy comment to the pea who was losing her home was low. Jesus, Squillen. |
----Theresa
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SabrinaM
Proud Member of THE MOB
PeaNut 5,735
August 2000
Posts: 24,764
Layouts: 2
| Posted: 12/1/2012 11:34:22 PM
No you're not. You're getting student loans. If they are federally subsidized student loans, then you ARE getting help from the government.
Prior to Obama his loans were a combination of subsidized and non-subsidized. Regardless, a student loan is NOT a handout just as your mortgage or car loan isn't a handout. The money isn't given to us. Unlike a car loan or home loan, they're guaranteed loans and the gov't can do whatever they want to to get it back. |
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Sabrina
Recession: When your neighbor loses his job
Depression: When you lose yours
Recovery: When Obama loses his
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