| |
mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea
PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
Posts: 13,431
Layouts: 3
 |  Posted: 12/4/2012 1:03:58 AM
Possibly it's different in your household, family or environment. In my upbringing, I was taught that respect is earned, not demanded and not deserved. That is why it is so easy to lose the respect of others...it's a gift that someone gives to you. I was also taught that the return gift for respect is humility and to have the respect of many should be humbling.
Batya, I respect your opinions, as you normally present them in a well presented series of thoughts to support your beliefs. I don't always agree with them, yet I respect what it is that leads to your belief.
I'm rather taken aback that you feel that you can demand respect and think that you deserve it. Like I said, in my humble opinion you have earned it from me. I think, though, that I lost a bit with these statements, on this thread. I really thought that you were a better person than that.
Interesting, Kim, because I was raised very differently. I was raised to believe that everyone is deserving of my complete respect unless they give me reason not to respect them. It is not a gift, but a symbol of human decency. It is a profound difference that I suspect colors many of our interactions and political positions.
I can't speak for Batya's beliefs, but I believe she is deserving of respect both because she is human and everyone deserves that until/unless they do something rather dastardly, and she is also deserving of respect because of the way she has proven her intelligence and thoughtfulness on this board.
And btw, I don't particularly value humility or humbleness either. While I don't appreciate people who brag, I do have tremendous appreciation for people who have backbone and stand up for themselves, as Batya has done here. It is odd to me that you would assume that we all value the same personality traits. |
| "Some people should exercise their compassion a little more and their mouth a little less."-- Burning Feather | |
|
|
Kim M.
"I am the holder of Virgin Superpowers. Really."
PeaNut 73,616
March 2003
Posts: 13,184
Layouts: 254
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World
 | Posted: 12/4/2012 1:16:22 AM
You can't force anyone to actually respect you. But you can most certainly insist on being TREATED with respect.
Batya may not have worded her statement perfectly. But I don't blame her for refusing to continue a conversation with someone who speaks so disrespectfully to her. I would do the same thing.
You're right, Lucy. You can't force anyone to respect you, but you can earn their respect.
Now, I agree that people should be treated with respect, no matter what. And, I do try to do that toward most everyone. It doesn't always happen and we all slip up (well, I know I do). But, it's a 2-way street. Batya (obviously) didn't need to continue the conversation in this instance. At the same time, she didn't equally give respectful treatment. |
|
|
lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker
PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
Posts: 14,449
Layouts: 15
Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne
 | Posted: 12/4/2012 1:38:33 AM
But, it's a 2-way street. Batya (obviously) didn't need to continue the conversation in this instance. At the same time, she didn't equally give respectful treatment.
Are you joking? I saw no disrespectful responses from Batya to MochasMom. I will just leave it at that. |
LUCYG
northern california
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell
 | |
|
|
Kim M.
"I am the holder of Virgin Superpowers. Really."
PeaNut 73,616
March 2003
Posts: 13,184
Layouts: 254
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World
| Posted: 12/4/2012 2:07:22 AM
Interesting, Kim, because I was raised very differently. I was raised to believe that everyone is deserving of my complete respect unless they give me reason not to respect them. It is not a gift, but a symbol of human decency. It is a profound difference that I suspect colors many of our interactions and political positions.
I can't speak for Batya's beliefs, but I believe she is deserving of respect both because she is human and everyone deserves that until/unless they do something rather dastardly, and she is also deserving of respect because of the way she has proven her intelligence and thoughtfulness on this board.
Well, I suppose that this answers my first statement. I guess that it is a matter of upbringing, environment, etc. I believe there's a distinct difference between treating people with respect and respecting them.
Probably the best example (since you brought politics into the discussion) would be President Obama. I very much respect the Office of the President. If I were to meet him, I would be very polite and respectful to President Obama. I believe that he's a good father and husband (I have no reason to believe otherwise.) I do not respect a number of actions that he has made, nor statements that he has made, as the President. If he were to approach me and demand that I respect him and tell me that he deserves it, I have the choice to give him that respect or not.
No person can demand respect and automatically get it. Just as no one can demand that anyone like you just because you deserve to be liked (general you). And again, I can treat a person with respect and dignity without respecting them as a person.
And btw, I don't particularly value humility or humbleness either. While I don't appreciate people who brag, I do have tremendous appreciation for people who have backbone and stand up for themselves, as Batya has done here.
I know a lot of people that have a very strong backbone and have no problem standing up for themself or for their beliefs, yet are very humble about where they came from, where they are, how they got there and what they have become. Being humble shouldn't be confused with not being a strong person. It's very possible to be both and many extremely successful people have shown that in how they live their lives.
It is odd to me that you would assume that we all value the same personality traits.
I didn't make that assumption. I know, for a fact, that we do not all value the same traits. lol, not even close. In fact, for every person on this board, I would doubt that any 2 have the exact same mirror image of what they value.
Actually, mamashosh, I would go so far as to say that some of this "respect" talk is even generational (to some degree, and not referring to every person). Words like "entitlement" were seldom (if ever) used as I grew up. We weren't entitled to anything, and we surely didn't demand anything...including respect. We earned what we got. If we didn't work for it, we didn't get it, whether it was grades, respect, a raise at work, an education, a house, a car, shoes...whatever. You earned it. Period. |
|
|
Kim M.
"I am the holder of Virgin Superpowers. Really."
PeaNut 73,616
March 2003
Posts: 13,184
Layouts: 254
Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World
| Posted: 12/4/2012 3:08:26 AM
Are you joking? I saw no disrespectful responses from Batya to MochasMom. I will just leave it at that.
Batya did not call her names.
And no, I'm not joking.
(btw, Lucy, please don't confuse this discussion of respect/disrespect as an agreement with what MochasMom has said. I pretty much don't agree with most of it. lol) |
|
|
Sue_Pea
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 36,163
April 2002
Posts: 9,921
Layouts: 5
Loc: here, there and everywhere
 | Posted: 12/4/2012 5:17:55 AM
And I don't see that as condescending. Condescending is talking down to someone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is such an old, old joke that comedians (possibly Don Rickles?) used in their acts. Unfortunately, I think you were serious when saying this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh? Why shouldn't everyone demand the respect they deserve?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly it's different in your household, family or environment. In my upbringing, I was taught that respect is earned, not demanded and not deserved. That is why it is so easy to lose the respect of others...it's a gift that someone gives to you. I was also taught that the return gift for respect is humility and to have the respect of many should be humbling.
Batya, I respect your opinions, as you normally present them in a well presented series of thoughts to support your beliefs. I don't always agree with them, yet I respect what it is that leads to your belief.
I'm rather taken aback that you feel that you can demand respect and think that you deserve it. Like I said, in my humble opinion you have earned it from me. I think, though, that I lost a bit with these statements, on this thread. I really thought that you were a better person than that.
I see confidence in Batya's posts, too. We all deserve respect as human beings; no woman should be abused, no child or elderly person should be mistreated, that sort of thing.
Respect as it pertains to work is different. Employees should be treated with respect and dignity because they are people. However, they have to do their job well and earn respect as good workers. So some respect is owed to us as human beings-but in the workplace, respect has to be earned.
And Mochasmom, I used to feel the same way that you do about tattoos. I still don't like them, but I know some fantastic people with tattoos, including my vet. You are missing out if you automatically dismiss someone for having a tattoo. <shrug> | |
|
Darcy_Collins
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 514,615
July 2011
Posts: 2,138
Layouts: 0
 | Posted: 12/4/2012 10:58:39 AM
I've been out of town so missed this in real time - but I really have to point out - the start of the condescension hubbab post from bataya:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also follow along
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won't be condescended to, so when you can speak to me with the respect I deserve I'll answer.
Is hilarious considering this post of batya's just a few days ago:
And it's not that the presidency is an altruistic venture. People who hold positions of high power are some of the MOST egotistical on the planet. They have to be. You have people saying he took the presidency B/C he couldn't get a big money job. Do you not hear how insane that sounds?
Can you guys please follow your own arguments? It's tiring posting my own side and reiterating what you are all saying as a recap. Thanks.
Which I found to be the height of condescension as a response to my post:
I really think the idea that the presidency is some sort of altruistic venture is hilarious. As President Clinton clearly demonstrated, it's not the $400K salary while you're in office. He made over $10 million in paid speeches just last year. He went from pretty modest wealth while president to an estimated $85 million in just a decade. A former president's wealth potential well exceeds almost every CEO (leaving aside a CEO who also founded the company ala Bill Gates). President Obama is not going to pinching pennies because he chose to be President instead of sticking with constitutional law - even assuming he wanted to jump into business with his Harvard LAW degree.
And for the record, I really don't care where the Obamas choose to spend their Christmas.
The reality is batya has no problem being condescending - which she fully demonstrates all the time. And yes, this comes from pea who has done my share of condescending - I own it. Trying and getting all high and mighty on a message board about being treated with request just looked ridiculous.
And while Batya didn't seem to understand it in the original thread - ie pointing out the fallacy in one's argument doesn't mean their on the "side" of the other person (which I had pointed out in the original message ie I didn't care about the Obama's vacation). I'll again reiterate - I don't support MochasMom and her bizarre discussion about tatoos - I'm merely point out that batya does her own share of condescending - and they idea that Mochas Mom asked to to "follow along" was some sort of high insult on this board that got her panties in a wad, was ridiculous as she'd used the exact same language a couple days ago.
| |
|
batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.
PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
Posts: 31,933
Layouts: 24
Loc: up on my high horse
| Posted: 12/4/2012 11:12:41 AM
I don't like being the center of attention, so I will try to wrap this all up neatly and we can move on-
Darcy- Here, she spoke to me as if I was stupid-follow along, like I was an idiot. Totally unwarranted.
Can you guys please follow your own arguments? It's tiring posting my own side and reiterating what you are all saying as a recap. Thanks.
On the post you quote, I will admit the condescention. I will also try to explain, but not excuse it. I was answering people who repeated made the argument that supported exactly what I was saying, then argued as if it was against it. So I had to point that out as well as what I was arguing. And it did become tiresome on my part.
That said, there was no condescending behavior from me, here on this thread, that warranted that kind of attitude from Mocha. I stand by that.
As for Kim, I have no reason to believe that everyone doesn't deserve respect and kindness, here and IRL. If you go out in the world and treat people badly waiting for them to earn kindness and respect from you, I can't really fathom how that would work. I'd rather start with everyone on top and let them give me reason to no longer have respect for them. Like with my children--I trust them until they give me reason not to. I'm with Shosh. Although maybe it comes from our Jewish backgrounds. We don't believe in Original Sin so everyone starts with a clean slate.
As for humility and modesty, you'd be shocked to know that IRL, I shun recognition and attention and preach humility and modesty to my children and live it as an example to them. Confidence and leadership go hand in hand with humility IMO. No better way. So while I believe in myself and know I can be the best at what I do, I show people through my actions and don't crave credit. So in that, we are in agreement.
|
OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.
| |
|
|
