Former Nazi camp guard, possible deportation....not sure how I feel about this.....
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 12/3/2012 by candleangie in NSBR Board
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freecharlie
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Posted: 12/3/2012 10:47:03 PM

If we had people today who were affiliated with Al-Qaeda and they said they were only part of it b/c they were young and scared and coerced into being part of these terrorist cells would you back off or would you want them tried and gone?
I wanted to address this before I read the rest of the thread.

I think I would feel the same way if they were young kids and scared and coerced into being part of terrorist cells if they had found a way out and were no longer living that way. If they were living without being a treat to society. I think I feel this way because I think of my own children.

Would I think that way if he had been one of the orchestrators or 9/11, a high ranking official? Probably not, but just an insurgent? probably.

Many in the Nazi army believed in what they were doing, they were full of hate toward the Jews, but some of them were trying to survive themselves.

I don't know how I feel about it, I am completely conflicted.


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Anna*Banana
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Posted: 12/3/2012 11:16:11 PM
I couldn't get past this: "...he didn't serve at so-called death camps..."

ETA:

Buchenwald was a forced labor and not an extermination camp.
Oh right... With cabana boys and all... I forgot how nice it was in the forced labor camps. Silly me.

Wren, I am surprised by your equally ignorant response.


~ Anna ~

birukitty
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:26:54 AM
I'm totally shocked that there are many Peas that "feel" for this man and don't think he should be deported where he might have to be tried for his crimes.

He was an SS Nazi prison guard (not an unwilling boy of 14 who was drafted into the German Army) who was charged with escorting prisoners to and from work details and ordered to shoot any prisoners who tried to escape. To be in the SS you had to apply and be granted entrance. There was no way this man was "forced" against his will to be in the SS.

Do you actually think that someone like this would only shoot prisoners who tried to escape and for no other reason? Do you know the brutality that these prisoners were subjected to? They were starved, beaten and only had thin clothes to protect them from the winter cold. If you missed one day of work detail you were punished severely or just killed. Do you only think prisoners died in the gas chambers? Guards kicked, beat and shot prisoners on the way to work detail and back. If you didn't move fast enough, or if you had trouble walking or were ill.

I've studied the Holocaust for years, have been to the Holocaust museum and even a concentration camp in Holland. My parents have been to Auschwitz.

We cannot close our eyes and forgive just because it took 50 years to catch this man. We must never forget!

Debbie in MD.

mapchic
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:49:16 AM

Many in the Nazi army believed in what they were doing, they were full of hate toward the Jews, but some of them were trying to survive themselves.
This is where the fact that he was an SS member makes a big difference for me. If he was just part of the German Army then sure, I would buy that he was just trying to survive himself. That he was an SS member makes it a very different story.

I wonder... what happened in the immediate post war era to him and to others like him?

Did he desert and then not get caught at all while others who held the same positions as he did faced punishment? Or, did all of those who were perimeter guards receive no direct punishment at the time?

That would make a difference to me in terms of what I would think was appropriate in terms of the punishment that Germany, Austria or Israel may wish to impose today.

We have to remember that after the war many people were punished with varying levels of severity. Concentration commandants were executed, head guards received heavy prison terms (or occasional death sentences if they were particularly evil), and other guards received fairly light sentences if any. That is, if the guards didn't experience direct justice at the hands of liberated prisoners or furious allied liberators.

It is depressing to see how little prison time some of them eventually ended up serving. Many life sentences of relatively senior people were reduced to only 15 or 20 years.

This man was hardly the only perimeter guard. I am sure there was some sort of standard for dealing with others like him in the post war reckoning of those who were in the SS and/or part of the holocaust. It is entirely reasonable that none of the countries that may have jurisdiction to prosecute this man for his actions during the war will choose to do so because it would be unjust as he would then be prosecuted in a way that others who had the same position were not.

Post WWII all immigrants from formerly Nazi controlled countries were asked on immigration forms about what they did in WWII. Lying on those forms is perjury and grounds for immediate expulsion from America. He knowingly lied and now he should pay the price by being expelled.




"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

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dottyscrapper
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:50:42 AM


Post WWII all immigrants from formerly Nazi controlled countries were asked on immigration forms about what they did in WWII. Lying on those forms is perjury and grounds for immediate expulsion from America. He knowingly lied and now he should pay the price by being expelled.





This ^^^^^^^.

The reason he's up for deportation is that he LIED ! Any other person doing this would also be deported - yes? You could say he's actually an illegal immigrant - having entered the country under false information and then went on to gain US citizenship again with false information.

For the US to deport him Austria would have to agree to accept him. He does not have an automatic right to return to Austria since he gave up his citizenship of that country when he was accepted as a US citizen.This is one of the things that makes it more difficult to actually put him on a plane and send him on his way. If the US have already revoked the citizenship he is infact stateless with no where to go. Something he should have thought about when he decided to lie in the first place IMO.

Thousands of German nationals left Germany in the years after the war, not all of them lied on their applications to enter another country. They had no reason to do so, they had nothing to hide!







Woobster
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Posted: 12/4/2012 8:11:59 AM

I'm totally shocked that there are many Peas that "feel" for this man and don't think he should be deported where he might have to be tried for his crimes.

I don't feel for the man. He lied about his involvement with the Nazi army and needs to pay the price for that.

I do feel for his family who wasn't even aware of his involvement until recently.

Just T
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Posted: 12/4/2012 8:28:28 AM

totally shocked that there are many Peas that "feel" for this man and don't think he should be deported where he might have to be tried for his crimes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wish I were, but I'm not. It's clear from the posts on this thread that the further we get from the actual events, the more ignorance of what occurred, and the "can't we all just get along and not dredge up this icky stuff, just live and let live" attitude. It is frightening that such a horrific time in history has become annoying to remember and deal appropriately with the issues still around. Even 15 or 20 years ago,I think that the responses would be very different.

We live in a world where there is a huge reluctance to discern right from wrong, to call something bad because, you know, maybe it wasn't so bad, and we don't have all the facts. So maybe it's not so surprising that such a pervasive attitude of 'everything is gray" has led to some of the sympathetic opinions here.


I feel I should respond since I am one who said I have mixed feelings. Not really sympathy, just mixed feelings. I learned things on this thread that I did not know, which changes my feelings a lot.

First of all, as the mom of an 18 year old, I was envisioning how he would feel if a band of soldiers broke down our front door in the middle of the night, dragged us all out and forced him to become a Nazi guard/soldier/whatever. I did not know that one had to actually apply to be in the SS. I had no idea, and that changes my thoughts considerably. I was just thinking of being forced into something as a kid vs. choosing it willingly.

I absolutely think that the Holocaust should never be forgotten, and I do not think that being a guard in a certain camp is "not that bad." I do not find bringing it up annoying at all.

My only point was that if he was a child who was forced into it, my feelings are little less black and white. Everyone who cited the actual laws governing reasons someone can be deported, and explained the different branches and hierarchy of the Nazi party, thank you. Again, I didn't know some of those details.

creativeflmom
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Posted: 12/4/2012 9:47:32 AM

But the reality is that an entire nation was involved. And it's been 70+ years. This feels a little like keeping it alive.


Of course it is keeping it alive. It should be kept alive! Would you be saying the same thing in 70 years if someone that was involved in 9/11 was finally found and brought to justice? Atrocities like this should never go unpunished no matter how long it takes to bring justice for the millions of people that were murdered. 6 million+ Jews died but 40+ million died (civilians and military) throughout WWII. You can never just let things like this go by just because so much time has passed. I don't know if his side of the story is true or not (of course he is going to claim that he was forced) but whether he was forced or not he should still be held responsible for his part.

Also he might not have worked in a extermination camp but roughly 250,000 people died in Buchenwald because of hunger, disease, forced labor and killings. It might have been called a forced labor camp but we all know the Nazi's plan. They just decided to use forced labor and starvation as a killing device instead of a gas chamber.

I am sorry, my sympathy lies with the victims and not with the perpetrators.


The pea who used to be CreativeMommy2Two

mumzcuddles
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Posted: 12/4/2012 10:09:55 AM

I too have very mixed feelings. I think the part that does that to me is the fact that he was forced into Nazi service at 17. That is still a kid. He was probably scared shitless and truly had no choice.

I think a grown man choosing to become part of the Nazis and being sent to a camp is different than a child being forced into it. I think those of us who now live in a time and country where military service is a choice cannot really comprehend what life must have been like for teenaged boys in Nazi Germany who witnessed the execution of entire families because someone wouldn't comply with orders.


My mum was a German Jew. Her and her two brothers were forced to join the SS by my grandfather. Why??? Because two sisters had gone to the concentration camps.

There were many many Germans of all faiths who lived in terror and actual fear for their lives. My mother was taken to witness I think it was something like 'Chandeleir Night' where Jewish families were dragged from their homes and their possessions thrown in the streets and burnt/stolen. It wasn't because they wanted to see it but because of their fear of torture/death/rape if someone even thought that they sympatised with the Jews.

I don't know the full details because it is only in the last 18 months that she has started talking about it. The memories and the fear is still as great now as it was then.

Send him back???? I'm sorry but some of you need to step out of your little world and realise as others have posted here that it is impossible to imagine what was happening at the time, there were victims on both sides. I can not imagine the fear that some of them must have gone through. I don't know if I would be brave enough to stand alone and say 'this isn't right'.
I don't know if it's right for him to stand trial or not, it is not a part of history that should ever be forgotten. There are many who will never be able to forgive for what happened to them and their families. As for me and my siblings....we try and understand and not judge. We weren't there, we don't know what was going on and we sure as hell don't know who was a 'willing' Nazi and who was forced. It's an atrocious time in history and in the here and now there is no clear cut answer. I'm not sure that there ever was. JMHO

jen1021
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Posted: 12/4/2012 10:21:09 AM
Let's take the prison guard scenerio out of this situation.

This man lied on his immigration application. Plain and simple. He broke the law and now has to face the consequence of deportation. That's the way the American justice system works. I have no sympathy for him based on age or gender or past political affiliation. He lied, he broke the law, he has to leave.



Jen




birukitty
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Posted: 12/4/2012 10:30:55 AM
I'm really glad to see that this thread educated a few Peas on the horrors of the Holocaust and changed some minds. I highly encourage you to read "Night" by Elie Weisel. This little book had the power to really touch me and make me truly understand that time in history.

It's a short book and you can get a paperback of it for $9.95 at Amazon. Then you might want to watch "Schindler's List" if you haven't seen it already.

I've heard some people say,"Oh I don't want to watch that, it's too depressing." Yes, it is depressingly sad but it's very important to view in order to really understand, and learn about what happened during the Holocaust. If we dismiss it and forget the truth of what happened it is more likely to happen again.

Debbie in MD.

Just T
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Posted: 12/4/2012 10:35:36 AM

I'm really glad to see that this thread educated a few Peas on the horrors of the Holocaust and changed some minds.

Not sure I can speak for anyone else, but the thread did not educate me on the horrors of the Holocaust. I already knew how horrible it was. I once worked with an older lady who was a small child when her family was sent to Auschwitz, and she was the only one who survived. I doubt there are many on this thread who aren't familiar with the horror of the Holocaust.

I said that I learned a lot about the hierarchy of the Nazi party and the SS and how one became a member of the SS.

smurfie
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Posted: 12/4/2012 11:42:13 AM
i am a german national whose grandfather was executed after being incarcerated in a concentration camp for "aiding, abetting and hiding jewish family members" and for refusing to do active duty. he was executed as a traitor to the country.

Now, the difference is, my grandfather was a grown man of 35+ years when he actively refused to do duty, not a 17yrs old lad. Although my grandmother managed to save a jewish aunt and 4 of her children (by passing them off as her own), my two oldest uncles were drafted into the army and had no choice but to serve, they were 13 and 14 yrs respectively when they were picked up and taken away to have their uniforms measured and issued. They were young and scared, luckily they were drafted in towards the end of the war, and from what i piece together from family history, the barracks they were stationed in was taken over by british troops a month or so after they were taken. However, this guy most likely was not given a choice, he would have been taken and told he is now in the army and his family would have been under threat had he stood up and refused service.

My grandmother suffered terribly, not only because she was alone with 11 children and heavily pregnant, but also because it spread like wildfire that her husband was a traitor. While many in the village supported her and thought my g/father to have done something to be proud of, there were also a lot of "informants" who closely watched the family and monitored any and all going ons. Had my uncles refused service, my greataunt and her children would most likely not have made it to safety, as my two uncles did their service however, some of the pressure was taken off the family.

Those who were responsible for the camps are by now dead, either through execution or through natural causes, or suicide.. i dont think anybody is helped by punishing those that "followed orders" and were too scared to do what my granddad did. The ones that are now left, are all most likely kids who were drafted and assigned duties... that is not to take away from the horror or to minimise what happened, but i think some perspective is needed.




Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me



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smurfie
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Posted: 12/4/2012 11:53:34 AM

But the reality is that an entire nation was involved. And it's been 70+ years. This feels a little like keeping it alive.


that is a disgusting generalisation... in fact most germans were GLAD when the war came to an end, the concentration camps were a closely guarded secret, with the "normal" german citizen being fed stories of "relocation to new housing estates" and such, the propaganda films showed little villages with happy kids playing... so no not an ENTIRE nation was in on it and, as i said in my earlier post, someone who never got to meet her grandfather because he stood up to the regime i take personal offence to that comment.




Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me



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mapchic
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Posted: 12/4/2012 11:54:10 AM
If we are suggesting reading... I would strongly suggest people read Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning - Experiences in a Concentration Camp". It is easily the best book I have ever read in my life.

As for the argument that this man was just a child and thus should be excused for his actions... I don't buy it. There were those who choose to resist - in small ways and large. He could have chosen to resist and not to join the SS. It might have been more dangerous, it might have been harder, but it would have been the right thing to do. Plenty of young people did resist.

I would highly recommend watching the movie "Sophie Scholl - The Final Days". It is in German but it is so gripping that you don't mind reading the subtitles. It tells the story of Sophie Scholl and her participation in the White Rose - a resistance movement of students. Sophie, her brother and several other members of the movement were executed for distributing anti Nazi leaflets.

It is important to remember that not all Germans were Nazi's. Each German had a choice and many (not enough) choose to oppose the Nazis as much as they were able. That means that those who choose to actively support the Nazis by doing things such as volunteering for the SS are all the more to be reviled. It was a choice.





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“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

IleneTell
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:01:23 PM

Yes the Holocaust was a horrible thing. The camps were horrible,

But if not for them, I would not have been born. Many other people would not have been born. I have this life of mine directly as a result of the Germans and their actions in WW2


I too wouldn't have been born, but I think that's a small price to pay to have avoided all the totrure, suffering, misery and death inflicted on millions and millions of people. The enormity of what went on is just so hard to comprehend and encompass. The horror movies we watch now are nothing compared to what some people actually lived through.

Even though it would change history and the world would be different, and many of the people around today would never have been born, I think it would be more than worth it to have had the holocaust never happen.

I know you're not coming from a bad place in making that statement, so I am not judging you - but I do have to disagree.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:03:21 PM
It's easy to moralize but given how many Peas regurgitate propaganda, it's hard to believe that most would stand for humanist values - especially given their lack of sympathy for our most brutalized peoples today.

mapchic
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:08:23 PM
smurfie - I really appreciate your contributions to this discussion. The story of your grandfather is very moving. It shows that there were those who did resist.

However, this line of yours coming from a German in the 21st century is very, very disturbing

i dont think anybody is helped by punishing those that "followed orders"
If we learned anything from WWII and the Nuremberg trials afterwards it is that the defense of 'I was just following orders' does not excuse those who actively participate in war crimes.

Those who participated in the holocaust in big ways and in small had free will and choose to do so. I would not count your uncles (or anyone) who were drafted into the Wehrmacht as participating in the holocaust. They were (minorly) participating in the war, but not necessarily the holocaust and while the two events are inextricably linked, they were not always the same thing.





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“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

obliolait
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:11:08 PM

If we learned anything from WWII and the Nuremberg trials afterwards it is that the defense of 'I was just following orders' does not excuse those who actively participate in war crimes.


It seemed to work in Rwanda, considering many genocidaires were repatriated having served minor prison sentences.

Anna*Banana
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:17:03 PM

If we learned anything from WWII and the Nuremberg trials afterwards it is that the defense of 'I was just following orders' does not excuse those who actively participate in war crimes.
Exactly. That is the law of the international courts. Period.


~ Anna ~

Darcy_Collins
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:37:07 PM
If people are interested in reading more about the bureacracy part of Nazi Germany, you should pickup "In the Garden of Beasts" - it's a nonfiction book written about the US Ambassador to German living in Berlin during Hitler's rise. It gives an interesting perspective on the various fractions within the Nazi party, differentiating between the "brown shirts" or SA and the SS as well as the regular Army. It also talks about the various leaders and fighting for control within the Nazi Party.

It also gave a very interesting perspective on people in Germany and how many turned a blind eye to the early laws that didn't effect them, and how quickly one can adapt to a "new normal"

It is not about the holocaust, it's really about the beginning of Hitler's rise and his consolidation of power.


smurfie
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:38:44 PM
i will try and explain, though im notoriously bad at doing just that... especially as i am doing so in a foreign language..

i am looking at this from the perspective that those are now (in this century) still left alive, would have been those that were drafted in as children... as i said, my uncles were 13 and 14, to me that qualifies as children...

i dont know this guys full history, same as you all dont, so it is quite possible that he was in fact coereced, maybe forced, maybe told by his family "this is what you do to further the family's reputation" etc. i think if his father/brothers/uncles had any SS history, chances are, you are looking at a true criminal and lets face it, deportation to germany is not that awful a fate. i dont even know if there would be a trial, depending on the FULL background... however, if he was one of the last to be drafted in, given the choice of frontline or homeland duty, he "may" have just blindly in a panic chosen the homeland and landing himself in such a position.. towards the beginning of the war the ss was an elite, however, i believe that towards the end it was pretty much you did what you were told

i think it a lot also depends on when he fled germany, he obviously left before the camp was liberated, so, did he try and resist the regime? did he run to save his life? again, i dont know...

fact is, those who are now still alive were very young, were brought up under a terrifying regime, were fed lies and BS all day every day, except for those who were lucky enough to have parents like my grandparents...

there are other factors i believe that should be (and probably will be) taken into account, like remorse for his actions, his conduct since...

Im having a hard time expressing what i mean exactly... i personally never felt any responsibility or guilt or any of that as my family had NO hand in any of this, they never voted for the nazi party, they made the ultimate sacrifice and managed to save my greataunt and her four children (3 of whom are still alive and well to this day and in contact with my mother)...
I give up now ive typed and retyped and reworded and i just know that i will not be able to explain exactly what i mean... i think that the history needs to be remembered, but the blame needs to be laid to rest...




Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me



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katybee8
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:42:15 PM
He lived a good 50 years in the states, probably illegally, and had what I am guessing to be a good life. Better than the one the people he guarded had.

People always talk about the 6 million who died. Don't forget about all those who lived through it, *suffered* though it. There are things worse than death and many, many of the people in the camps were subjected to these tortures. It's one thing for someone to come up behind you, put a gun to your head and shoot you. It's another thing entirely to live in *fear* of that for months and years.His presence contributed to that fear.

In the essence of full disclosure, my DH has a friend who helped Wiesenthal hunt Nazis (the friend did research), so I am a bit hardcore "kill 'em all" on that issue.

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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:55:09 PM
God, some people are just fucking stupid. If you don't know what the history of that camp was, read just a smidgen here. It was a death camp because THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE DIED THERE. FFS!

web page

My step-father's entire family were sent to Hart Mountain simply because they were Japanese. Try telling them that members of their family didn't die simply because there were no gas chambers. They died. Just like in Buchewald.

If the Nazi's had time, they would have gassed innocents there too. Instead they died of exposure, malnutrition, abuse and yes, guns and beatings. This man is not innocent, his prisoners were.

I hope they convict him, and put him to death. He is a coward who lied to get into the country and lived here for 50 years covering up his despicable lies. I don't give a damn if he was forced to serve or not. In that era, seventeen was considered an adult, they were often out on their own with families of their own. He was and is responsible for his actions, even now.


Fucking stupid people.

obliolait
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Posted: 12/4/2012 12:56:02 PM

In the essence of full disclosure, my DH has a friend who helped Wiesenthal hunt Nazis (the friend did research), so I am a bit hardcore "kill 'em all" on that issue


there's a good rational

tlc0963
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Posted: 12/4/2012 1:21:49 PM

My feelings about this are also mixed. Yes the Holocaust was a horrible thing. The camps were horrible,

But if not for them, I would not have been born. Many other people would not have been born. I have this life of mine directly as a result of the Germans and their actions in WW2.


I am PRAYING that you don't mean this in the way that I am reading it. But . . .

Six million+ people were subjected to unimaginable brutality, horrors, and genocide because of an evil tyrant's hate and he and a (majority) of a nation had a blood lust for power, and that is okay with you, in fact, forgivable, because otherwise you wouldn't be here?

I know that many of the sick, despotic 'science experiments' that were performed on helpless and powerless captives, have yielded some scientific advances, but it is a little disconcerting, horrific, and sickening to read your casual condoning of such evil acts, because if not for them you wouldn't be here.

Wouldn't you rather be here under circumstances that didn't have genocide and despotic, evil, sadistic 'science experiments' attached to your very existence.

Understand, I know that everyone who may have benefitted from the scientific advances that were realized because of some of these 'experiments' are NOT the benefactors fault; I just am a bit shocked at your casualness about it and more specifically, the casualness of your comments.


TLC

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Posted: 12/4/2012 1:23:24 PM
He should absolutely be deported.

He has already lived a better life than those that suffered at his and/or fellow SS members hands.

mapchic
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Posted: 12/4/2012 2:53:22 PM

if he was one of the last to be drafted in, given the choice of frontline or homeland duty, he "may" have just blindly in a panic chosen the homeland and landing himself in such a position..
But yet, it was a choice. If he made a self serving choice to serve in the SS in order to get homeland duty instead of going to the eastern front to get slaughtered by Russians... I can see how one could be very tempted. Yet it was still wrong to participate in any way with the mechanisms of the holocaust. As a guard - even a perimeter guard he knew what was happening. He could have asked to be transferred (there are historical cases of people who did).


i think it a lot also depends on when he fled germany, he obviously left before the camp was liberated, so, did he try and resist the regime? did he run to save his life?
As far as I can tell he wasn't there when Buchenwald was liberated - because he would have been taken as a POW by the US Army who liberated the camp, or killed by the prisoners.

Interestingly, Buchenwald was really kind of 'self liberated' by the prisoners who took control of the camp a day before the Allied forces got there. There was an unusually strong resistance group in Buchenwald who took swift justice on their guards at liberation. The whole story of the Buchenwald camp and the resistance there is really fascinating and worth your time if you are looking for some amazing stories of heroism in the camps.

Buchenwald is generally really fascinating. There were American POWs held there for a bit - until the German Luftwaffe got wind of it and had them transferred to a POW camp.



My step-father's entire family were sent to Hart Mountain simply because they were Japanese. Try telling them that members of their family didn't die simply because there were no gas chambers. They died. Just like in Buchewald.
It is deeply offensive to equate in any way the internment of Japanese Americans with the holocaust. If you think they were in any way equivalent you are very, very wrong. It is a way of diminishing what occurred in the concentration camps of the holocaust to try to say they are in any way the same.

Japanese internment was wrong and should not have happened, but it was in no way the same as the holocaust. Heart Mountain was a resort compared to Buchenwald. I have personally interviewed people who were interned in Manzanar and Gila River, and I have also spoken extensively with survivors of the holocaust. The difference between the stories is night and day.



I hope they convict him, and put him to death.
If others in his position were put to death then I would agree with you... but to the best of my knowledge that was generally not the case. Therefore killing this man now would not be just. He wasn't in charge of a camp, there are no stories of his personal cruelty. If others in his position did prison time and he avoided it then yes, he should go to prison now and serve that time.





"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

wren*walk
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Posted: 12/4/2012 2:58:30 PM

which is what you implied when you said



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we supposed to be trying and convicting the entire ex German military? The German people who were adults at the time? Where does it stop?




FFS, I wasn't implying that the US Justice Dept is TRYING German war criminals. And you know very well I wasn't.

I am saying that the Justice Dept, who has had around 100 successful cases (of rooting out ex Nazis) since 1979, is in this case at least, acting unilaterally AND selectively in working to deport this man. The German war crimes tribunal apparently has no interest in this guy.


Since so many of you are still acting like he is guilty without a trial, what then are his crimes? What are the charges? Which body is indicting him?

Some of you talk so glibly of the ripping away of due process and constitutionality in a case when it seems to excite some of the lower emotions, like vengeance and hate. But in doing so, you forget that one of the other lessons that period taught us is that we must not allow the state to take away those same rights from any part of the citizenry. Even those we might instincitvely hate. Since that is the slippery slope.

I am not saying this guy did nothing wrong. Hell, I have no idea if he did or he didn't from the little we know of his situation. I am saying, why is the state, in this case the US, making a special case here? Why are we ok with that?

Yes, he probably lied on his forms. But as already mentioned, only 100 such cases since 1979. How often do you think the Justive Dept is looking at and investigating immigration forms to root out innacuracies? How many immigrants do you thing there are today who could be found to have innacurate data on their forms? Why is the state, the Justice Dept no less, selecting this guy for special attention when he is charged with no crime? THAT, I want the answer to, because frankly, it chills me.

The other point about that, and I asked this earlier and I guess no one responded. Lets say he is in fact deported. Where does this all end? How many ex German military still alive should be rooted out and brought to Nuremburg? What about German civilians, many of whom we know were complicit in some way? Why is he selected for deportation for as far as I can tell, non existent charges, when there must be so many still living that may be even more guilty of something than he?

And so, I say, UNLESS there is in fact evidence that he is guilty of war crimes, for God's sake let it go. They will all be dead and gone soon enough.

I am not saying FORGET, no one is saying that. I hate the Nazis with a passion and love WW2 history, I will NEVER forget. But this, to me, with the little we know at the time, seems to be the case where mercy, even forgiveness, is for the greater good.







guzismom
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Posted: 12/4/2012 2:58:56 PM

I believe in redemption - I really do - I believe that people can be redeemed. That a person can do horrible, horrible things, and then change his or her life and become an upstanding, productive, good citizen.

But I also know that our wrong actions have consequences even after we have been redeemed.


This is true.

Let's remember: this man is really not being deported because of his behavior in WWII Europe; he is being deported because he lied on his citizenship application and as such has had his US citizenship revoked.


I would strongly suggest people read Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning - Experiences in a Concentration Camp". It is easily the best book I have ever read in my life.


I agree, mapchic.


Marilyn (now in New Mexico!!)
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lucyg819
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Posted: 12/4/2012 3:22:37 PM
For the pea who thinks Buchenwald was "merely" a forced labor camp and not a death camp: an estimated 56,000+ people died there over the course of the war ... a quarter of the total prisoners that passed through its gates. They may have worked the prisoners there, but it's what normal people would refer to as "working to death." In the most literal sense.

Wikipedia re Buchenwald

Your posts on this thread are so over-the-top and emotional that I have to wonder if you have a personal interest in these escaped Nazi cases. I can't imagine defending them so passionately, otherwise.

And now that you've finished insulting Nightowl Scrapper and her posting history, you can start on someone who normally agrees with your politics--me.

ETA just for the record, I have family that escaped Nazi Germany and my stepmother lost most of her extended family to the Holocaust.


LUCYG
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--Bertrand Russell



obliolait
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Posted: 12/4/2012 3:25:04 PM

My feelings about this are also mixed. Yes the Holocaust was a horrible thing. The camps were horrible,

But if not for them, I would not have been born. Many other people would not have been born. I have this life of mine directly as a result of the Germans and their actions in WW2.


LOL, maybe the world would have been better off if you were never born

IleneTell
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Posted: 12/4/2012 3:36:13 PM
Thank you for the link LUCYG...I think the information there speaks for itself. People just like us were sent to places like this. They weren't merely killed - they were tortured, physically and mentally. The Nazis devised ways to be as cruel as they possibly could be, and it's sickening to think about.

mapchic
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Posted: 12/4/2012 3:42:09 PM

Where does this all end? How many ex German military still alive should be rooted out and brought to Nuremburg? What about German civilians, many of whom we know were complicit in some way? Why is he selected for deportation for as far as I can tell, non existent charges, when there must be so many still living that may be even more guilty of something than he?
It isn't a question of him (or anyone) being 'ex German military'. It was the fact that he was ex-SS and that he then lied about it.

There was a difference between the professional German military and the SS. A HUGE difference. It seems like some people don't want to acknowledge that and they either want to hold everyone who served int he wartime German army responsible for everything, or they want to say let sleeping dogs lie regardless of if they were SS or not.


The Justice Department is doing what they are legally required to do in rooting out those who lied to the US government when entering this country in order to hide from wartime crimes.

I think we can all agree it was a great scandal that after WWII many of the worst criminals escaped prosecution and scattered all over the globe. That made organizations like the Simon Weisenthal necessary to find and bring to justice as many holocaust criminals as possible.

I believe (but could be wrong) that it was because of the work of Simon Weisenthal that the law or regulation was put in place requiring the DOJ to track down any former SS or Nazi's who lied on their entry documents.

WWII was a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that justice delayed should be justice denied. The people who are found today should still have to face justice.


I am saying that the Justice Dept, who has had around 100 successful cases (of rooting out ex Nazis) since 1979, is in this case at least, acting unilaterally AND selectively in working to deport this man. The German war crimes tribunal apparently has no interest in this guy.
His deportation has absolutely nothing to do with the German war crimes tribunal. It is for crimes he committed here. In the United States of America. It is unilateral in the way that all domestic laws are unilateral. Yes, it is selective... in that the DOJ is selective in rooting out former Nazis and SS members if they lied about their past in trying to gain entry to America.

Let's all acknowledge that America absolutely did purposely bring some former Nazis into this country post war. Primarily scientists who were brought in to boost our military research as the Cold War began. The difference is - they didn't lie about their wartime service in Germany and they were not SS members or participants in the holocaust.


Your posts on this thread are so over-the-top and emotional that I have to wonder if you have a personal interest in these escaped Nazi cases. I can't imagine defending them so passionately, otherwise.
I agree with lucyg819. Do you know this man or his family wren*walk? I can kind of understand that if you know someone only as a nice man who raised his family as a hard working German immigrant Pisburgh steelworker it would be very hard to see them deported for something that happened more than half a century and half a world away.




"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

lucyg819
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Posted: 12/4/2012 4:02:08 PM

My only point was that if he was a child who was forced into it, my feelings are little less black and white.


Those who were responsible for the camps are by now dead, either through execution or through natural causes, or suicide.. i dont think anybody is helped by punishing those that "followed orders" and were too scared to do what my granddad did. The ones that are now left, are all most likely kids who were drafted and assigned duties... that is not to take away from the horror or to minimise what happened, but i think some perspective is needed.

They ALL say they were forced to do it. They ALL deny hurting anyone. It is a meaningless defense.

Smurfie, what your grandparents did during the war was admirable. It does not excuse the behavior of most of their countrymen.

No perspective needed, at least until every single remaining Nazi is dead or imprisoned.


LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



wren*walk
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Posted: 12/4/2012 4:05:02 PM

For the pea who thinks Buchenwald was "merely" a forced labor camp and not a death camp: an estimated 56,000+ people died there over the course of the war ... a quarter of the total prisoners that passed through its gates. They may have worked the prisoners there, but it's what normal people would refer to as "working to death." In the most literal sense.






Talk about emotionality. You are letting YOUR emotions cloud your reading comprehension skills. My post about the type of camp Buchenwald was, was merely a correction to an erroneous post by desertpea, as follows.


He was a perimeter guard. Is that his crime here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hell yes. You stand by watching people get ushered into gas chambers, then you are just as guilty as someone who dropped in the gas pellets. (desertpea)





I didn't expect "forced labor camp" to be interpreted as a heavenly expereince, merely to correct the misinformation of the guard here ushering people into (non existent) gas chambers at Buchenwald. But this is one of my main complaints in this thread. Too many people jumping to conclusions and allowing passions to rule the head. Understandable? Yes. But that doesn't mean that non facts and outright falsehoods should reign.

And you Lucy, if you want to remain objective, can easily search my posting history. You will find that I often reference the Nazis and their regime as a LESSON to us in history. As I said, I love WW2 history, it is one of MY passions. So the idea you are raising, that I of all people should have some type of emotional attachment to Nazis is patently absurd. And honestly, I would have expected better of you. But it is what it is.

If you, or anyone else, can't accept that someone else can feel differently on the subject at hand WITHOUT in fact being a Nazi themselves or a sympathaizer, then I feel a kind of despair that certain feelings can never be put aside. But I also believe, that Jewish people specifically, probably have a whole range of different feelings about this subject. Even on this thread. So how would you go about explaining that? Lets just agree to disagree. But please don't insult me without cause.






lucyg819
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Posted: 12/4/2012 4:35:14 PM
Wren*walk, apparently I was unclear. I did not intend to accuse you of being a Nazi sympathizer. I don't actually expect anyone here would be one.

I DID mean to say that perhaps you have a familial/emotional tie to one of these underground elderly Nazis and therefore have more sympathy toward their situation than the rest of us. Because otherwise I can't begin to imagine what's going on inside your head. We're being mean because we want to see justice carried out?

Regardless. Emotional or not, I do not apologize for demanding justice, no matter how belated, for those animals. Worse than animals, actually. And that goes for both those who set the Holocaust in motion, and the minions who willingly or not-so-willingly carried it out.

Bottom line, I don't believe it's okay to murder another person in order to save one's own life.

Especially when you then lie about it for 50 or more years, and then when you finally get caught, THEN you start crying that you were forced to do it.

Yeah, not so much.



LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



mamashosh
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Posted: 12/4/2012 4:47:36 PM

My feelings about this are also mixed. Yes the Holocaust was a horrible thing. The camps were horrible,

But if not for them, I would not have been born. Many other people would not have been born. I have this life of mine directly as a result of the Germans and their actions in WW2.


WTF????? You were born so it makes your feelings about the holocaust mixed??? Your birth justifies the death of six million Jews??? You have a rather inflated view of your worth. I do not wish you weren't born, but the hubris to think that your birth is somehow compensation for their loss is incomprehensible to me.



mamashosh
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:04:11 PM
In reference to my last post, Moriah2, I am sorry that I reacted so strongly and viscerally. I am going to choose to believe that you did not mean that they way it came out. It does sound like your ancestors had a rough time of it, and I am sorry for that. I do think your post was poorly worded, but you can't have meant that your birth justified the holocaust in any way. Right?

And wren, I do find it hard to understand your repeated dismissal of the fact that this man broke US law by lying on his immigration forms. I completely agree with Lucy when she said :




Regardless. Emotional or not, I do not apologize for demanding justice, no matter how belated, for those animals. Worse than animals, actually. And that goes for both those who set the Holocaust in motion, and the minions who willingly or not-so-willingly carried it out.

Bottom line, I don't believe it's okay to murder another person in order to save one's own life.

Especially when you then lie about it for 50 or more years, and then when you finally get caught, THEN you start crying that you were forced to do it.

Yeah, not so much.



mamashosh
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:37:32 PM


EXCUSE ME BUT DID YOU READ MY GRANDPARENTS WERE IN THE CAMPS????

Or are you just being stupid?

If anyone expects me to say, gee I wish I had never been born, or, I would be happy if I had never existed, you are full of crap. Just Full. Of. Crap.

If anyone expects me to say I wish my MOTHER had never been born, then that's a big ole KISS. MY. ASS.

I will not say that. I will not.


I can't imagine anyone is saying that you should wish you were never born or that you wish your mom had never been born. (well, no on except obliolait , who...well....) That would be offensive. But your phrasing in the earlier quote was, perhaps, less than optimal??

What camps were your grandparents in when they were in camps in Poland?



IleneTell
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:39:35 PM

with the little we know at the time, seems to be the case where mercy, even forgiveness, is for the greater good.


Whose greater good?

birukitty
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:48:20 PM
Guess I spoke to soon when I said that it looked like this thread had educated a few Peas and changed a few minds. Apparently not enough.

I continue to be shocked at the ignorance regarding this subject, and the continuing posts believing this man "was forced into it" and had to do what he did against his will.

Like Lucy mentioned "they all claim the above when they were caught." I sincerely believe he should be kicked out of this country based on his lies to get in, and hopefully Germany or Austria will decide to try this man for his crimes. That is what should be done. I don't care how old he is or how long it's been.

As for the assumption that most of the German public embraced the Nazi propaganda this is completely untrue. Sure some of them did-they believed Hitler's lie and were swept up in the propaganda. But certainly not all.

My mother was born in Germany in 1939 to a single mother with no close family. My grandmother spent the war trying to keep her mouth shut because if she said anything against the Nazi's they would have thrown her and my mother into the camps. She was all my mother had so even if she wanted to take part in the resistance she couldn't because of her small child. But she hated Hitler with a passion. One day after she married near the end of the war her mother-in-law was visiting and said, "Oh, it's almost time for Hitler's speech-turn the radio on." My grandmother said, "Not in my house!" This alone could have gotten her thrown in the camps if the mother-in-law had decided to report it.

I also had a distant cousin in what is now Poland but during wartime was Germany. He was in on one of the many plots to try to assassinate Hitler.

BTW when I first learned about the Holocaust I ran home after school and confronted my mother. "Is this really true?" I asked her. She said yes. I asked her, "then why didn't you do something?" She reminded me that she was a small child during the war and what could she do. After this I carried an enormous amount of guilt on my shoulders for the following 42 years until just recently when I learned about my cousin and my grandmother's feelings about Hitler.

Debbie in MD.




Kim M.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 5:51:02 PM
I'll repeat what others have said...

He's not escalated his case in the U.S. because of any charges relating to military action. His case is because he became a U.S. citizen by fabricating a story (or omitting a story).

Just like many before him. Of course he will say he was only 17. Of course he will say he only did as he was told. Of course he's going to say that he didn't kill anyone. He lied to get here, he lied to stay here.

The reason this is in court is because he doesn't want to be extradited. He would likely go to Austria (they do take in Nazis) awaiting possible war crime charges (or not). Once he is extradited, then it is up to the tribunal to determine whether he is charged or not...not the U.S. government. They will have completed their job by tracking, locating, indentifying, prosecuting and extraditing said person.

I do hope that he is tried, eventually, for his war crimes. The courts should determine any involvement and punish accordingly. Being a model occupant in a country your not supposed to be in, in the first place, does not qualify for citizenship.


Kim

wren*walk
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:56:13 PM

I DID mean to say that perhaps you have a familial/emotional tie to one of these underground elderly Nazis and therefore have more sympathy toward their situation than the rest of us. Because otherwise I can't begin to imagine what's going on inside your head.





No, and I want to make it completely clear that I do not have either a familial/emotional/ethnic, nor any other sort of tie to "underground elderly Nazis.

And frankly I am dismayed that one so normally objective (unlike others on this thread) would have to resort to some such crutch in order to rationalize a different POV to your own. But as I said in my last post, it is what it is and we just have to disagree.


I do believe the Nazis in general, and the SS in particular were a terrible scourge on our history which none of us should ever forget. Again, history, and particularly WW2 history is a passion of mine, and I frequently make use of it in illustrating or foreboding what can happen when society begins to scapegoat people or take civil liberties away. So, if no one is able to conceive of one with THOSE viewpoints simultaneously having a problem what is happening in THIS case, so be it.

As for NOS, my problem is not with her opinions as such, as much as it is with her debate style. I am obviously not agreeing with the majority of people of this thread, but I don't "insult" them, as you put it.

That is because she can never just address someone's POV and refute it with her own set of facts. Her debate style is to change, twist, and manipulate what that other person's view is, making it unrecognizable from the original meaning. Much like you did Lucy, with the Buchenwald comment where you quoted me as saying it was "merely" something, when I did not. So no apologies for that. I will always rigorously defend my own position, and if one person is making a habit of misrepresenting or misquoting what I say, then I guess they will have to get used to it.

Now I'm out of this since I've listened respectfully to others here, said my piece, and have nothing further to add.

















lucyg819
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:27:13 PM

No, and I want to make it completely clear that I do not have either a familial/emotional/ethnic, nor any other sort of tie to "underground elderly Nazis.

And frankly I am dismayed that one so normally objective (unlike others on this thread) would have to resort to some such crutch in order to rationalize a different POV to your own. But as I said in my last post, it is what it is and we just have to disagree.


It was your apparently extreme passion for the subject in your posts on page 2 that led me to believe this was more than intellectual exercise for you. Other people posted a certain amount of sympathy for the old man. You were the one who turned it into a real cause.


Her debate style is to change, twist, and manipulate what that other person's view is, making it unrecognizable from the original meaning. Much like you did Lucy, with the Buchenwald comment where you quoted me as saying it was "merely" something, when I did not.

I think you still don't understand that there WAS no real difference between a "work camp" guard and a "death camp" guard. In the end, they were ALL death camps. There was no need for you to make a point of differentiating between the two, and that is where the "merely" comment comes from.


LUCYG
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



obsidian
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Posted: 12/4/2012 8:56:16 PM


Let's all acknowledge that America absolutely did purposely bring some former Nazis into this country post war. Primarily scientists who were brought in to boost our military research as the Cold War began. The difference is - they didn't lie about their wartime service in Germany and they were not SS members or participants in the holocaust.


Erich Traub was a Nazi virologist who specialized in the study of foot-and-mouth disease. He worked directly under Heinrich Himmler and held the position of lab chief at the Nazi’s leading bio-weapons facility on Riems Island. During World War II, Traub carried out a number of experiments with viral and bacterial diseases. He worked on weaponizing foot-and-mouth disease, which was dispersed by aircraft onto cattle and reindeer in Russia for experimentation during the war. Traub provided Hitler with advanced chemical and biological weapon capability and was responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. In one specific case, Germany dropped a large collection of mosquitoes over Italy in order to spread malaria and help stop the Allied resistance.

Immediately after the war, Traub was trapped in the Soviet zone of Allied occupied Germany and was forced to work for the Soviets from his lab on Riems Island. In July 1948, the British evacuated Erich Traub from Riems Island and he came to the United States under Operation Paperclip. He was asked to discuss the Nazi animal disease program from a biological warfare perspective. The information was enough for the U.S. to create the Plum Island Animal Disease Center.



And there were others. web page

mamashosh
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Posted: 12/4/2012 9:12:44 PM

Much like you did Lucy, with the Buchenwald comment where you quoted me as saying it was "merely" something, when I did not.

I think you still don't understand that there WAS no real difference between a "work camp" guard and a "death camp" guard. In the end, they were ALL death camps. There was no need for you to make a point of differentiating between the two, and that is where the "merely" comment comes from


I agree with Lucy. Perhaps it is your communication style, but by saying it was not a death camp but rather a work camp, you implied that it was somehow a lesser evil, and really, they were indeed ALL death camps.



wren*walk
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Posted: 12/4/2012 9:28:50 PM

I agree with Lucy. Perhaps it is your communication style, but by saying it was not a death camp but rather a work camp, you implied that it was somehow a lesser evil, and really, they were indeed ALL death camps.





Then you like Lucy are not reading it in context.

It was a factual correction, i.e, there were no gas chambers, as stated by desertpea, he was not ushering people into. And the word "merely" in quotes was NOT in my post. It was put there by Lucy. Facts matter. This is no different.

Maybe you think it was ok to inject rhetoric and false equivalents because so many people died there anyway, and that was part of Buchenwald's purpose. And maybe you are right.

But please don't try to misrepresent what I am saying and ignore the fact that someone tried to change my meaning by adding an extra word in quotes and all. There is no reason to.








IleneTell
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 434,842
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Posted: 12/4/2012 9:35:37 PM
I think what Lucy and mamashosh are trying to point out is that your manner of phrasing your comments lends them a casual tone, such as:


with the little we know at the time, seems to be the case where mercy, even forgiveness, is for the greater good.


This statement, among the others they pointed out, makes it sounds like you're not giving the situation the gravity it deserves - whether that was your intent or not.

Also, although you changed your working later, you did mention you "LOVE" this history. I'm having a hard time reconciling what went on with anyone being able to love anything about it. I understand you're taking a very distant, philosophical approach, but again - that lends to the impression that you're making light of what went on.

freecharlie
Trying to think of a new title

PeaNut 109,127
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Posted: 12/4/2012 10:41:11 PM

I'm really glad to see that this thread educated a few Peas on the horrors of the Holocaust and changed some minds. I highly encourage you to read "Night" by Elie Weisel. This little book had the power to really touch me and make me truly understand that time in history.

It's a short book and you can get a paperback of it for $9.95 at Amazon. Then you might want to watch "Schindler's List" if you haven't seen it already.

I've heard some people say,"Oh I don't want to watch that, it's too depressing." Yes, it is depressingly sad but it's very important to view in order to really understand, and learn about what happened during the Holocaust. If we dismiss it and forget the truth of what happened it is more likely to happen again.

I don't know who needed educated. I think while nobody knows entirely what went on, most people have at least a basic understanding. I have read Night (and Day and Dawn), I've watched Schindler's List, read and watched Boy in the Striped Pajamas, taken a 400 level history course on the holocaust and Nazi Germany, gone to the Holocaust Museum in Florida (someday I will make it the one in DC), was told stories by my father about the camp areas years after they were liberated...

While I certainly don't know everything or even a lot about that time period, I do know enough to know that not everybody hated Jews or non-Aryans. There really were people that just wanted to save their lives or the lives of their children. I'd like to think I would stand up for those who needed people to stand up for them, but I honestly don't know if I could do it at the expense of my children.


Like Lucy mentioned "they all claim the above when they were caught." I sincerely believe he should be kicked out of this country based on his lies to get in, and hopefully Germany or Austria will decide to try this man for his crimes. That is what should be done. I don't care how old he is or how long it's been.

As for the assumption that most of the German public embraced the Nazi propaganda this is completely untrue. Sure some of them did-they believed Hitler's lie and were swept up in the propaganda. But certainly not all.

My mother was born in Germany in 1939 to a single mother with no close family. My grandmother spent the war trying to keep her mouth shut because if she said anything against the Nazi's they would have thrown her and my mother into the camps. She was all my mother had so even if she wanted to take part in the resistance she couldn't because of her small child. But she hated Hitler with a passion. One day after she married near the end of the war her mother-in-law was visiting and said, "Oh, it's almost time for Hitler's speech-turn the radio on." My grandmother said, "Not in my house!" This alone could have gotten her thrown in the camps if the mother-in-law had decided to report it.

I also had a distant cousin in what is now Poland but during wartime was Germany. He was in on one of the many plots to try to assassinate Hitler.

This could be turned around just like others are doing to those who claim they were forced to join the Nazi's. They all claim to have not supported Hitler or been part of the resistance when asked...



I hope they convict him, and put him to death. He is a coward who lied to get into the country and lived here for 50 years covering up his despicable lies. I don't give a damn if he was forced to serve or not. In that era, seventeen was considered an adult, they were often out on their own with families of their own. He was and is responsible for his actions, even now.


Fucking stupid people.

Really? They didn't execute most Nazi sympathizers or military members even back during the trials in the aftermath of the war.

He should be deported based on lying on his citizenship application. I would have lied too, but that doesn't make it legal.



Tribbey: I believe, as long as Justice Dreifort is intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, women, poor people, and the first, fourth, fifth, and ninth amendments, I will remain intolerant toward him! [to Ainsley] Nice meeting you
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