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pudgy_groundhog
Chubby old groundhog
PeaNut 113,457
October 2003
Posts: 16,080
Layouts: 351
Loc: Hudson Valley area in NY
 |  Posted: 12/6/2012 9:26:40 PM
It wasn't just Europe. One of the surprising things to me in the book above I referenced - "In the Garden of Beasts" was the written correspondence between the US Ambassador in Berlin and FDR's administration in DC which was pretty shocking in it's overt anti-semitism. There were MANY in the United States who sympathized with Germany's "Jewish problem" and "understood" many of the early anti-Jew laws not imagining just how far Hitler would take things.
That was a very interesting book and a great look at how events began. I also recently read Winds of War and War and Remembrance, which I thought were excellent (historical fiction, but so much detail and well researched). I again was really struck by the anti-semitism in the US and our reluctance to allow more refugees. But I was also struck by the lengths to which the Nazis went to hide their concentration camp activities. I don't think people in the US (or most of Europe for that matter) knew the extent to which they were persecuting the Jewish population (at the time I think people just couldn't possibly imagine something so horrible happening). |
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moveablefeast
do justice, love mercy
PeaNut 265,707
June 2006
Posts: 11,106
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Loc: Northern Virginia
 | Posted: 12/6/2012 9:41:54 PM
Some things NEED to be hated, and history needs to be kept alive. The evil perpetrated against an innocent people deserves hatred. When we stop hating it, and begin to view it through the prism of relativism and the lack of absolutes that are such popular ways of looking at every darned thing today, we are in serious danger.
I don't disagree with this. It is absolutely true - some things need to be hated. Absolutely. This is one of them. Genocide is one of those things that needs to be hated.
I am not a relativist. I know full well that an action such as those undertaken in support of the "Final Solution" has no moral ambiguity. Everything that the Nazis did with the intent to eliminate the Jewish people was morally wrong at every time, on every level, and for every person. Full stop, end of story. Some actions have some moral ambiguity, this one does not.
The thing is... that even if an action has no moral ambiguity, the thing that makes it more difficult is that people do have moral ambiguity. People are not only good or only bad - no, people are a mixture of good and bad. We do good things and bad things, for good reasons and bad reasons. I can tell you that I have never been involved in genocide, but I can also tell you that I have moral ambiguity. I do good, and I do bad. I do not need to have been involved in something so unambiguously heinous as a Nazi camp to have good and bad.
For me, the simple reality is that Mr. Geiser misrepresented himself whilst filing for citizenship. He knew his participation, whether fully voluntary or not, would leave him ineligible. The law, too, lacks ambiguity, and he knew that. He is looking for ambiguity in it now, to preserve a life he has spent many decades cultivating. And I sympathize with that. I understand it. Not because his actions under the Nazi regime were defendable in any sense, not because I think the law is unjust or wrongly applied, but because I identify, in a small parallel way, with what he has tried to do.
I agree that genocide must be hated, that racism and xenophobia are evil, and that we should consider them socially and culturally reprehensible. The actions of the Nazis and any that hold similarities should be unequivocally condemned.
But I understand how it is that a man could do something unambiguously wrong, participate in something unutterably horrible, and then literally place an ocean between that action and himself and build a new life. And although I believe the law in question is just and appropriate, I understand why he did that. But the consequence of that has caught up with him, decades after the fact. To see the humanity in this story does not relativize the unequivocal evil that was done during that time. | |
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mapchic
Top Tier Pea
PeaNut 31,157
February 2002
Posts: 12,166
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Loc: Chicagoland
 | Posted: 12/6/2012 10:59:09 PM
Yeah Lucy, I also chose to ignore her first post which made no sense--Jews in the SS???? Chandelier night???? --out of sympathy, but I have lost sympathy now. This poster is showing equal sympathy for the Nazis as she is for their victims. Unreal.
Count me in with the people ignoring the first nonsensical post. I actually tried to reason out what she could have meant and other than translating 'chandelier night' into Kristallnacht I can't make heads or tails of it.
I generally try not to disagree with or correct people when they tell what they know of their family history.Even if what they are saying is something I *know* is historically impossible I figure it is what their family told them and it's not worth it for me to try and correct that.
This time... I am glad that someone has already pointed out the problems with the story. Women were not SS member, if you had Jewish family members in the camp it was highly unlikely - if not impossible that you would be allowed into the SS. I am sure her mother's stories are somewhat muddled by time, but it is possible to try and check them against the historical record.
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"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown
“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit | |
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Anna*Banana
:blink:
PeaNut 69,360
February 2003
Posts: 22,758
Layouts: 6
 | Posted: 12/6/2012 11:39:53 PM
I wonder how many of your sons, brothers, fathers, husbands would stand up against a government that would merrily drag the women out and rape and kill them. Can you net even comprehend what was going on, why they say hindsight is wonderful.
As humans we will fail to do the right thing many times, but I think that we also have to be responsible for that failing. Bad $hit happens and we can be put in a horrible, no win, situation. And when it comes to situations of ethnic cleansing, yes, people have to be held accountable and "called out" legally and in society for NOT standing up. Yes, even if it's hard, even if... We have to. We just do.
Some things, as a society, we have to draw a line in the sand. Crimes against humanity are those things. |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,760
Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 12/6/2012 11:57:50 PM
Moveablefeast, I do understand what you are saying. I do understand that circumstances were veried and difficult for all of us, at some point in our lives, to do the morally correct action. I do understand the extreme temptation to keep quiet and build a happily ever after future in America and pray you don't get caught. I get it.
But understanding is not condoning. It is acknowledgement of the feelings and human frailty that led him to this point. But it doesn't change that he needs to face consequences for lying. If he is not tried by the people who are professionals at discerning who needs justice for their actions during the Nazi regime, I am fine with that. I have not at any point joined the "off with his head" chorus, because it's silly. So I think we are in agreement on the moral ambiguity of such a person's life and would not attempt to judge something that has so many questions. He needs to face the judgment of those far more skilled than any of us in locating and evaluating evidence. I believe we are in agreement on that.
What I am not fine with is the attitude of mumzcuddles. Her post is full of platitudes and inaccuracies leading to the conclusion that we have no business remembering the Holocaust, that there is no value to it, that hatred breeds hatred, and, most offensive, that people who want Nazis brought to justice are just like the Nazis hating the Jews.
The attitude that no one should be remembering atrocities, asking for justice, or taking a stand against evil, frankly, horrifies me. her stories of her family - well, they are just that, stories. Stories that don't make sense to someone who understands some of the parameters of that time, but if she was told stories by elderly relatives and had no interest in educating herself on the particulars of history to see that there are some problems with what has been taught her, I can sort of live with that.
But the statements made in her most recent post show a definite lack of understanding and a plea for moral relativism in viewing, not the person, but the entire subject of the Holocaust. That I cannot excuse or let pass without argument. I find it extremely distressing, and I understand if those even closer to the subject find it to be outrageous. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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Sue_Pea
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 36,163
April 2002
Posts: 9,843
Layouts: 5
Loc: here, there and everywhere
| Posted: 12/7/2012 5:54:44 AM
Keeping in mind that all of Europe had racism issues in regards to Jews, the anti-Semitic laws that took hold in Germany weren't all that "shocking" to the average person at first.
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It wasn't just Europe. One of the surprising things to me in the book above I referenced - "In the Garden of Beasts" was the written correspondence between the US Ambassador in Berlin and FDR's administration in DC which was pretty shocking in it's overt anti-semitism. There were MANY in the United States who sympathized with Germany's "Jewish problem" and "understood" many of the early anti-Jew laws not imagining just how far Hitler would take things.
yep. It's shocking to us now, but it was not uncommon for anti-semitism to rear its ugly head here AND in Europe. For those who are interested in this time period, if you haven't read William Manchester's Last Lion series about Winston Churchill, give it a look. The second volume, Alone, which covers 1932-1940 is fantastic. I was gob-smacked when I found out how commonplace it was for wealthy, famous people to visit Germany in the 30's and come back saying how great Hitler was.
And the British govt. under Chamberlain kept trying to make treaties with Hitler. Just incredible.
I know that Hitler's rise was made possible by many things,like the extreme poverty in Germany following WW1, but it is so puzzling and sad that most of the citizens in a large country like Germany could be brain-washed into ignoring all of the terrible things that Hitler did.
On the other hand, the bravery of those in Holland and France who were part of the Resistance is awe-inspiring when you think about just how much they were risking. | |
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Darcy_Collins
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 514,615
July 2011
Posts: 2,110
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 | Posted: 12/7/2012 9:30:17 AM
I think we need to be careful in saying women were not SS members - women technically joined the SS-Gefolge a support branch of the SS for women. But my understanding is that was really more about ensuring that no woman obtained a rank higher than any male SS member. If you look at Juana Bormann and some of the other high ranking women in the Nazi regime, they were no different than any other SS member despite their sex. I'm sure there are many, who have more knowledge about this than me, so please chime in. I didn't want people to be left with the impression that women weren't active in the cruelty and atrocities of Nazi Germany - unfortunately that crossed gender lines.
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mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea
PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
Posts: 13,354
Layouts: 3
 | Posted: 12/7/2012 10:12:09 AM
As humans we will fail to do the right thing many times, but I think that we also have to be responsible for that failing. Bad $hit happens and we can be put in a horrible, no win, situation. And when it comes to situations of ethnic cleansing, yes, people have to be held accountable and "called out" legally and in society for NOT standing up. Yes, even if it's hard, even if... We have to. We just do.
Some things, as a society, we have to draw a line in the sand. Crimes against humanity are those things.
I agree, completely |
| "Some people should exercise their compassion a little more and their mouth a little less."-- Burning Feather | |
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scrapmaven
PEA-T-A-Mom's kitteh is a fraidy cat.
PeaNut 90,665
June 2003
Posts: 15,727
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Loc: Wherever my little mind takes me
| Posted: 12/7/2012 11:04:39 AM
I am a firm believer that just because someone evil gets old doesn't mean they've earned our respect or kindness. It just means they haven't died, yet. Now, I don't know if this guy is evil or not, but I do know that he was a participant, whether through fear or not in a heinous event and he doesn't deserve to be exonerated. At the very least he needs to be treated as a Nazi war criminal and not given special dispensation because he's old. Being a Nazi is imho an indefensible crime.
For God's sake, let it go. In twenty or so years, all of these men will be dead and gone.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't punish the ones we find now. Letting it go is an insult to the millions upon millions of people who were tortured, murdered and violated. Let this be a lesson to people around the world that we punish evil! |
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smurfie
PeaNut
PeaNut 216,659
July 2005
Posts: 499
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Loc: On the Scrapheap
| Posted: 12/7/2012 11:41:10 AM
Let this be a lesson to people around the world that we punish evil!
what about the allied forcees members who raped/killed/tortured innocent german citizens... people who had done nothing wrong at all or even people who had done their little bit..
my mum still to this day tells me the stories (she was a young child during the war, born in 1932) how her brothers had to run to the local garisson to call the RMPs because soldiers had broken into their hut (not a house, not a shed, a hut) and were about to do unspeakable things to her and my grandmother? This is a child who had lost her father through execution for being a "traitor and abetor to the jews", this a young girl who was barely in her teens..
all those soldiers went free... none of them were brought to justice... to this day merely mentioning the fact that one is german often is met with disgust and i have had "nazi pig" shouted at me from across the road by kids in the neighbourhood no older than 10... my daughter has been called jew killer, kids in her school goosestep and call her hitler, they drew swastikas on her locker... all that even though my grandfather paid the ultimate price for protecting my great aunt and her children.
Not all germans were or are NAZIS, not all NAZIS were or are german (in fact, hitler himself was AUSTRIAN not german).. it is a political affiliation, not a nationality or race, you still get the extreme right wing loons and i believe there are a LOT of right wing loons still in america to this day (the KKK loons come to mind immediately, if killing black people by the millions is not as much genocide as what happened in germany, i fail to see the difference).
Yes, it was horrible what happened, no it should not be forgotten .. but there has to come a time where a country is allowed to move on from past generations mistakes.
At the time, hitler was voted in because we had lost the first world war and had been turned into a democratic republic rather than an empire.. it was the first time a nation got to vote in a government. Now, if you had a candidate who told you "i will give you jobs, i will give you food for your children, i will give you infrastructure and prosperity for your country, i will give you health care and education" would you NOT vote for him? he did not stand there and tell the people of germany "i will kill the jews, i will lead your country to ruin through war, i will give you everything you want but it will cost you the lives of not only millions of foreigners but also the lives of millions of your own" ... once hitler had been voted into power there was little that could be done, people all over germany TRIED to rise against him, people tried to assassinate him... and a great many after a while saw what happened to those people and chose relative safety for their own families and children...
ETA: i just realised that a great many of you will start down the "you cannot liken our american slavery to your german holocaust" so no i am not likening them, i am just trying to say that each country has made its mistakes... the british were the ones who invented the concentration camps during the Boer War... the bosnian/serbian conflict saw genocide on a big scale...
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Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me
Leon (MC 03/05/10): Never in my arms, forever in my heart. | |
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mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea
PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
Posts: 13,354
Layouts: 3
| Posted: 12/7/2012 12:05:41 PM
Let this be a lesson to people around the world that we punish evil!
what about the allied forcees members who raped/killed/tortured innocent german citizens... people who had done nothing wrong at all or even people who had done their little bit..
my mum still to this day tells me the stories (she was a young child during the war, born in 1932) how her brothers had to run to the local garisson to call the RMPs because soldiers had broken into their hut (not a house, not a shed, a hut) and were about to do unspeakable things to her and my grandmother? This is a child who had lost her father through execution for being a "traitor and abetor to the jews", this a young girl who was barely in her teens..
all those soldiers went free... none of them were brought to justice... to this day merely mentioning the fact that one is german often is met with disgust and i have had "nazi pig" shouted at me from across the road by kids in the neighbourhood no older than 10... my daughter has been called jew killer, kids in her school goosestep and call her hitler, they drew swastikas on her locker... all that even though my grandfather paid the ultimate price for protecting my great aunt and her children.
Not all germans were or are NAZIS, not all NAZIS were or are german (in fact, hitler himself was AUSTRIAN not german).. it is a political affiliation, not a nationality or race, you still get the extreme right wing loons and i believe there are a LOT of right wing loons still in america to this day (the KKK loons come to mind immediately, if killing black people by the millions is not as much genocide as what happened in germany, i fail to see the difference).
Yes, it was horrible what happened, no it should not be forgotten .. but there has to come a time where a country is allowed to move on from past generations mistakes.
At the time, hitler was voted in because we had lost the first world war and had been turned into a democratic republic rather than an empire.. it was the first time a nation got to vote in a government. Now, if you had a candidate who told you "i will give you jobs, i will give you food for your children, i will give you infrastructure and prosperity for your country, i will give you health care and education" would you NOT vote for him? he did not stand there and tell the people of germany "i will kill the jews, i will lead your country to ruin through war, i will give you everything you want but it will cost you the lives of not only millions of foreigners but also the lives of millions of your own" ... once hitler had been voted into power there was little that could be done, people all over germany TRIED to rise against him, people tried to assassinate him... and a great many after a while saw what happened to those people and chose relative safety for their own families and children...
What you are describing, soldiers abusing civilians, absolutely should have been punished. Absolutely. I am so sorry that happened to your family. People mistreating your family, calling you and your child names, is inexcusable and should be stopped. I am sorry that happens.
But really, that has very little, if not nothing, to do with what we are discussing here. Your family's mistreatment does not in any way compensate for/even out/dismiss the horror of the Nazis. Because some soldiers (and it was some---it was not the policy of any government to abuse innocent people) behaved really badly does not mean we should ignore or forgive the Nazi soldiers. I agree, not all Germans are or were Nazis, but that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because this man was, in fact, a Nazi. He was SS.
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| "Some people should exercise their compassion a little more and their mouth a little less."-- Burning Feather | |
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mapchic
Top Tier Pea
PeaNut 31,157
February 2002
Posts: 12,166
Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
| Posted: 12/7/2012 12:57:22 PM
I must have missed the part where anyone on this thread said that all Germans were or are Nazi's. I know I have gone to great lengths to point out that was most certainly NOT the case.
I wonder, where in Germany was your family located? In Eastern Germany there were serious problems with Russian military raping and pillaging. The famous picture of Russian soldiers raising the Russian flag over Berlin had to be edited to remove the multiple watches one of the soldiers was wearing.
The war between Russia and Germany was terribly, terribly brutal with murder and rape and then reprisals by both sides. I will not defend or try to justify the actions of the Soviet soldiers. While they were Allies it would be wrong to conflate the actions of USSR, USA and UK soldiers.
The Western Allies also committed rapes and pillaging... they were after all soldiers not saints. It was on a much, much smaller scale than that of the Soviets. Also it was against the UCMJ (US military law) and they could (and were) be punished for those actions. I have not read of German (or Soviet) soldiers every being prosecuted for rape during WWII.
It was a war zone. War zones are not good places to be a young girl. I am not surprised that your mother has harrowing stories. However, remember that many French, Polish, Russian, Belgium, Dutch, Luxemberger, Italian, Czech women would have the same stories about the German army when they were invaded. Not to mention all of the Germans who were brutalized by their own people just because of their race or religion.
You seem to want to somehow equate the actions of a foreign army with those of the SS. That just isn't going to work. What was done by Germans to Germans and to the people of the countries that Germany CHOOSE to invade does not compare. Not even close.
That you are trying to explain away the rise of fascism in Germany is a bit disturbing. Particularly as we are in a time of economic uncertainty and we can see in some places how there seems to be a resurgence of fascist political parties in Europe(check out the Golden Dawn party in Greece - creepy).
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"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown
“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit | |
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smurfie
PeaNut
PeaNut 216,659
July 2005
Posts: 499
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Loc: On the Scrapheap
| Posted: 12/7/2012 1:36:05 PM
i am not going to justify what i said... there is no point... the german people did not CHOOSE to go to war, their elected leader who duped them into believing he was a good man CHOSE to go to war. Rather like Mr Blair sending british troops into iraq, they did not CHOOSE to go there, they were deployed there...
Even soldiers to this day who are told to go to iraq or afghanistan and do not necessarily support the war, have to go because they are soldiers. i am an ex army wife (my ex husband served in the british army and did tours in ireland, iraq desert storm and later on in bosnia) he did not always agree with the wars that were fought, but he was a soldier and went where he was told to go. Same with a lot of german people back in WW2 who already were soldiers and were given their marching orders.Same as allied troops being sent into germany.. they were not asked if they wanted to, they were told where they were going. I realise that in america it was all on a voluntary basis, however in britain and other european countries (including germany) young man had to do national service.
If you look at the whole of europe, more and more right wing parties are being elected into power, a very scary one is the BNP who are gaining more and more support here in the UK... do i find it frightening? yes very, especially as i have seen from my country's past what these lunatics can do... but at the end of the day, if the people of this country elect these lunatics, there is nothing i can do about it. Holland, France, Belgium are all seeing a steep increase in nationalistic parties, germany doesnt because we have seen where it can lead..
as for which part of germany my family (i) am from... my father was born in what used to be prussia, so the eastern part of germany (his story is another one altogether) and my mother was born and raised in the rhineland, heavily occupied by primarily british forces, but also by french and american forces. None of the soldiers were held accountable for what they did, and to brush it off by saying "oh well, they were soldiers" is to me as disturbing as some of my views seem to be to you... The allied commanders gave the soldiers a "get out of jail free card" by turning blind eyes, so yes, in a way the atrocities committed against civilians after the war were condoned and okayed by the allies. If accountability is asked for it should be asked for on ALL sides... and as another pea mentioned what about the accountability of the other nations that did nothing? that knew what was going on, yet didnt take action until there was something in it for them? it could have been stopped much sooner... but it wasnt.
I am trying to figure out what it actually is that im meaning to say.. and i think it is this: not only this man lied about what he did in the war, many many many of the allied soldiers went back home after their tour of duty and did not tell their families about what they did when they were stationed in a country they were supposed to "liberate" (this is how my mother describes she felt about the front "rolling over" they all hoped that life would be better once the allies came in)
So, should all those people who committed war crimes also be prosecuted all these years later? or is there a general consensus that because they were on "the good side" it should be forgiven because since then and before then they had led good lives?
send the guy back to germany... if it makes you all sleep better at night, then start a petition to have him sent back..
ETA: i was not "explaining away the rise to fascism" i was giving you the reasons WHY people were inclined to vote for Hitler... and honestly, this is exactly what is happening now and today, any party that promises more prosperity, more wealth, more security gains the votes. And yes i am sure that if i had been alive back then, i would not have thought to myself "oh wait in x years time this men is going to lead us to commit atrocious crimes, i had better not vote for him" Hindsight is a great thing to have.
ETAA: there are numerous posts peppered throughout these 4 pages where people have said things like "an entire country was in on it". this simply is and was not true... one pea recounted what happened to many germans who lived in dachau after they found out what exactly went on. i guess that is where my radar was a bit too sensitive and picked up on these little bits of generalisations being thrown in without much afterthought. |
Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me
Leon (MC 03/05/10): Never in my arms, forever in my heart. | |
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mapchic
Top Tier Pea
PeaNut 31,157
February 2002
Posts: 12,166
Layouts: 55
Loc: Chicagoland
| Posted: 12/7/2012 2:40:15 PM
Again, I don't think you have read my posts on this thread. Yes, there were many non Nazi's who were compelled to serve in the Wehrmacht. Many German soldiers would not have fought if they could avoid it.
However the SS was a special Nazi paramilitary organization that was brought into the German military after Hitler was elected. To be an SS member (as the man who's story started this thread admits he was) you had to volunteer. The SS were the worst of the worst.
Meanwhile, while I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the members of the Wehmacht there were many atrocities they committed as well. However it would be wrong to paint them all with the same brush.
I realise that in america it was all on a voluntary basis, however in britain and other european countries (including germany) young man had to do national service.
You are incorrect. There was a draft in America during WWII (and Korea and Vietnam). In order to get into some specialized units (paratroopers, rangers) you had to volunteer.
None of the soldiers were held accountable for what they did, and to brush it off by saying "oh well, they were soldiers"
I did not brush it off. I just said that it is a reality of all war that soldiers (who are not known to be saints) commit crimes. American GIs were in fact punished for rape. Were all GI rapists punished? No. Is that terrible and a black mark on the history of our country? Yes. However, if rapists were caught they were punished in the American Army. Not so in the German army or the Soviet Army.
if accountability is asked for it should be asked for on ALL sides
I agree. However I still think that the actions of the SS (of which the man in the OP is a member) will stand out as the most cruel and evil int he war. They should not be brushed away with counter accusations to somehow act like 'everyone was doing it'. No, not everyone was doing what the SS did during WWII.
There is something in your posts that seems to want to diminish or discount the bad actions of Germans in WWII. Yes, not all Germans were supporters of the Nazis but at one point most were.
I have never met a German who doesn't have a story of how their family resisted or were anti-Nazis but all of those stories can't be true. They are just the stories that people want to believe about their family history. For example we have it here where someone is claiming their family was both Jewish and in the SS. Does not compute.
I do believe your story because it stands to reason that your family in the Rineland was anti-Nazi. Some of the lowest support of the Nazis was in that region. It was the north and the east where his base of power was located during his rise in politics. Though in 1936 and 1938 it looked like the support for him was nearly universal (not totally universal, but nearly).
No, an entire country wasn't 'in on it'... but most of the country definitely was. That is what makes stories like that of your grandfather all the more impressive.
So, should all those people who committed war crimes also be prosecuted all these years later? or is there a general consensus that because they were on "the good side" it should be forgiven because since then and before then they had led good lives?
If you find Allies who participated in horrors as evil as the SS and then lied in order to conceal their participation. Yes, they should be prosecuted. The problem is, nothing any western allies (not Soviet) did in WWII would ever possibly compare to what the SS did in the holocaust.
many of the allied soldiers went back home after their tour of duty and did not tell their families about what they did when they were stationed in a country they were supposed to "liberate"
Just to make something clear... no allies thought they were there to 'liberate' Germany. They were there to defeat an aggressor nation completely. That is very, very different. You mother might have been disappointed because as a young girl she didn't truly understand that nobody was there to liberate Germany - they were there to press for unconditional surrender. |
"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown
“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit | |
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smurfie
PeaNut
PeaNut 216,659
July 2005
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 3:09:16 PM
mapchic your post has me sitting here with my jaw dropped to the floor and crying... yes, to most germans it was a LIBERATION from an evil that they could not and did not know they had voted into power.... they had voted a government into power with the faith that their new leader would make it all better...
i cannot get past some of the things you just plainly came out with... in fact i am not sure if i should count myself "lucky" that you "believe" my family's history... i guess at the end of the day, it doesnt matter whether you believe me or not... i actually managed to get in contact with the concentration camp memorial curator and he helped me find my grandfather's grave (plus minus a few hundered meters, so that my mother could travel to the far north of germany to finally see her father's last resting place, we did not tell her that the records were all but destroyed and that we could not locate the exact plot where my father is now resting in a mass grave)
I have photographs of my jewish great aunt with her 4 children and family photos of my mother and grandmother with those very children posing as my grandmother's own...
I am not saying it "doesnt" matter because it does matter,not just for all those jewish people but also look at how many millions of germans were ALSO killed in the concentration camps it wasnt a fate solely reserved for those who were jewish... there were others (a lot of them germans) who were also put to death by this evil evil man. yes, he had many many sympathisers, a lot of them amongst foreign nationalities... but there were far more people who wanted it all to end, who were shocked at what they had done and who could not have foreseen what this one man would do.
and with this i give in.. there is no point in trying to explain anything as everything is just turned into a venomous "you cannot explain away" "it is disturbing how you minimize" etc etc... no, i am not but neither do i think that this blame game should be going on and on and on and on there comes a time when history needs to be remembered and taught as such... history, not a way to fuel hatred and animosity. |
Natascha Dominic Cameron DH and me
Leon (MC 03/05/10): Never in my arms, forever in my heart. | |
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Simply_Lovely
PeaFixture
PeaNut 463,295
April 2010
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Mrs_Tyler
Sorting Laundry
PeaNut 197,836
March 2005
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Loc: Enjoying the humid continental climate zone.
 | Posted: 12/7/2012 4:19:19 PM
The US was certainly not involved in WWII to liberate Germany. [Once we were brought into the war (remembering Pearl Harbor today)- we had hoped to stay out of it- right or wrong as that decision was] the US goal was to liberate all the nations that Germany had invaded and for German Reich to fall. Germany was the aggressor. Hitler had to be stopped. And while not every German supported Hitler, he was the leader of their country. His actions caused war. His actions turned Germany (and all of Europe) into a war zone. His actions led to the spread of Communism in Eastern Europe when Russia gained the lands east of Germany. Hitler's actions created the Holocaust and ultimately led to the creation of the nation of Israel from the Palestine region when Jews left Europe as refugees during he war and survivors of the Holocaust literally had no homes to return to in their home country. Hitler ruined the lives of far more than just the Jews. His own people certainly suffered greatly as well.
But that was war and in war, each nation is responsible for their part. And during all wars there have been bad people committing bad acts even while fighting on the side of "good". Like Moveablefeast was saying was that all people are capable of bad things. Knowing that the US was very strict about soldier conduct and punished US soldiers severely if they were found to have disobeyed the rules, I don't worry much about bringing allied soldiers to justice though I absolutely understand the horrors many German civilians lived in fear of and experienced due to living in a war zone. Punishing soldiers for criminal behavior was the job of our individual governments. This specific case is not about the US bringing a former SS officer to justice for the Holocaust. The US' role in this is to determine if he illegally entered our country using false infirmation regarding his involvement in the war, and decide if he should be deported for that crime. That is the only crime the US has authority to punish. | |
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Anna*Banana
:blink:
PeaNut 69,360
February 2003
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 4:49:13 PM
2 things:
all those soldiers went free... none of them were brought to justice...
If someone had brought it to the attention of appropriate people in the chain of command you bet soldiers are charged and tried. The US will not condone or accept that kind of behavior. If it was overlooked by people in command and crimes were perpetrated by soldiers, those in command are held accountable too.
And second, fighting in a war a soldier has a fundamental disagreement with is way different then a governmental policy of ethnic cleansing metered out by soldiers against their own citizens. No US soldier has to follow an unlawful order, of which, acting against civilians is.
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mapchic
Top Tier Pea
PeaNut 31,157
February 2002
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 6:55:05 PM
yes, to most germans it was a LIBERATION
I am astounded it is 2012 and this is the first time that you heard that the Allied forces in no way thought they were liberating the Germans. I have spoken with many veterans and have read a great deal on the topic... and at no time has the concept of 'liberation' of Germans been expressed. Liberation of the many nations who were victims of German aggression, sure - but not of Germany or Germans.
I would also question if it was 'most' Germans who though of it as a liberation. Some surely did but not all. I would think that most were just happy the war ended and by that point didn't particularly care how. They would have been just as happy with a brokered peace. There were still many Germans who had much to fear from a German loss. People like the man in the OP who had chosen to be a member of the SS... in that position he had much to lose when the Third Reich fell.
I pretty much think *everyone's* family stories are filled with BS. Even my own family only tells the 'good side' of every story. It's human nature to want to present history in a way that makes your people as good as possible.
You don't have to justify your family history to me at all. It doesn't matter if I believe it or not. I was just saying that it makes sense considering the region etc. and it is very admirable that your grandfather did stand up and saved those who he could. Very admirable.
I am not saying it "doesnt" matter because it does matter,not just for all those jewish people but also look at how many millions of germans were ALSO killed in the concentration camps it wasnt a fate solely reserved for those who were jewish... there were others (a lot of them germans) who were also put to death by this evil evil man.
Here is where we have a real problem. It was not just one evil man who created the holocaust. Many Germans want to push it off on Hitler as the designated bad guy. Sure, he was bad but he could not have possibly done that without the direct assistance of many in Germany and the indirect assistance (in the form of averted eyes) of most in Germany.
It would be very, very difficult to come up with a number of "many millions of germans were ALSO killed in the concentration camps". The Germans who were killed in the holocaust were overwhelmingly German Jews. Because of your grandfather's experience you may think there were millions of non Jewish Germans killed in the camps, but that is just not true. For you to present it as fact is a misrepresentation of history which makes Germans look like the victims far more than they were.
With the understanding that the numbers available are not perfect (because the Nazis liked to keep records, but realized that they should destroy them when they were being invaded). Roughly 12 million people were killed in the Holocaust. 6 million of them were Jews. The next largest groups killed were 3 million Poles killed. After that there is a long list of nationalities. Even if we assume that all the disabled, homosexuals, freemasons and Jahovah's Witnesses that were killed were German you are not going to get to one million, let alone 'many millions' of Germans who were killed in concentration camps.
I wonder why you think there were many millions of German non-Jewish victims of the holocaust. Is that what is taught in German schools?
there comes a time when history needs to be remembered and taught as such... history, not a way to fuel hatred and animosity.
I agree. The thing is... you have to teach history as truthfully as possible. Not a version that diminishes the responsibility of some participants by presenting bad things as solely the responsibility of one man. Not a version where those who committed the crimes of history are represented as the victims rather than the victimizers. That kind of mis representation of history *will* lead to animosity between those who know the truth and those who are trying to hide from the truth.
That kind of 'blame only Hitler' thinking also leads to cases like the one in the OP. Where an SS member claims that he isn't responsible for his actions during WWII. It is mid boggling to think that an SS member thinks that he can get away with proclaiming some sort of absolute innocence. This thread shows exactly how that can happen, memories fade, peoples understanding is colored by national pride and personal family stories. |
"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown
“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit | |
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AmeliaBloomer
BucketHead
PeaNut 509,476
May 2011
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 7:24:53 PM
Hijack alert: I think it's naive to think that soldier-rapists are always investigated and prosecuted - or that victims who report rape are treated with fairness or respect.
Rape has always been a part of conquest - or occupation or liberation. In the last decades, the American armed services (and academies) have often acted dishonorably when responding (or not) to sexual crimes AMONG the ranks.
Hijack over.
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lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker
PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 7:32:11 PM
Not all germans were or are NAZIS, not all NAZIS were or are german (in fact, hitler himself was AUSTRIAN not german).. it is a political affiliation, not a nationality or race, you still get the extreme right wing loons and i believe there are a LOT of right wing loons still in america to this day (the KKK loons come to mind immediately, if killing black people by the millions is not as much genocide as what happened in germany, i fail to see the difference).
The others have pretty much covered all the bases, but I wanted to clarify another of your misrepresentations ... the KKK is ugly and vicious and not a part of our history that the vast majority of Americans are proud of ... but they have not killed "millions" of black people. Over the past 150 years, they have murdered several thousand people, mostly but not all black.
It's not pretty, but it's also not in the millions.
And it's also against the law, not a legal function of our government, unlike the Holocaust. We punish the people who do it. |
LUCYG
northern california
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell
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mamashosh
Sugar Snap Pea
PeaNut 257,999
April 2006
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 7:50:52 PM
atter,not just for all those jewish people but also look at how many millions of germans were ALSO killed in the concentration camps it wasnt a fate solely reserved for those who were jewish...
TOTALLY FALSE!!!!! There were millions of non-Jews killed in the Holocaust, most of them not in the camps (taken out in fields and shot, etc.) though there were non-Jews in the camps. Most of the non Jewish civilians killed were Polish or Russian or Romani. There were some non Jewish Germans killed in the camps (Priests, homosexuals, the disabled) but NOT MILLIONS OF GERMANS. Sheesh, way to turn things around and make it out like the Germans were the true targets or a significant part of the victims. I am horrified. |
| "Some people should exercise their compassion a little more and their mouth a little less."-- Burning Feather | |
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NaughtiusMaximus
PeaNut
PeaNut 542,344
February 2012
Posts: 101
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 8:09:51 PM
Adolf Hitler = well-known vegetarian! I usually open with that...
Anyway, I'm sure it's been brought up before, but it wasn't all that weird that MANY people joined the Nazi party between 1927-1939. The country was in a horrible depression, and here comes this charismatic guy who has what on paper sounds like a good idea to get out of it (this before all the 'war stuff' so to speak). Party officials literally had open-house meetings all over, where free beer was served, so you can imagine how poorly attended those were! People signed up because they wanted free beer, and...change. (And before anyone jumps on me as a Obama-hater, I assure you I am a lifelong moderate Democrat.)
As for Hitler's eugenics ideas, etc, it may surprise people to know that he modeled his plan after the eugenics studies being done in the GOOD OL' USA. We are HARDLY innocent in that light particular light of day!
Has anyone seen the episode of Family Guy where Stewie and Brian are on the open-air German tour bus flipping through the guide book, and Brian complains that "Why is there nothing in here between 1939 and 1945?" and the guide insists "We were all on vacation!" That's not a joke. We have a German friend who was very reticent on communications with us for a long time, even though we encouraged her and email her often. Finally she asked us what she deemed a personal question, and this was it: "Do Americans today still blame us all the time for everything that happened in the war?" She meant, like, in everyday conversation. We were absolutely floored. She had been ashamed to talk to us, because she was afraid we disliked her for that! Holy cats! After we reassured her that there were PLENTY of other topics that Americans have on the front-burner, she explained it thusly:
Germany and German people in general today are so crushingly ashamed of what happened, they don't even like to acknowledge it.
According to her, the guide book joke from FG is pretty much based on reality. She and her immediate family recently found out the truth her own grandfather was a camp tower guard and a member of the SS, and the family is in a state over it. They don't talk about it, not over wanting to hide the truth, but out of SHAME. We just reassure her that we are her friends and can't wait to meet her someday.
So, I don't immediately damn someone because they were a Nazi. It was NOT UNCOMMON AT ALL that many Germans joined the Nazi party, because, in a very general nutshell...
They were sick of the way that their government was handling the current woes of the country, and some charismatic guy and his cronies came along with what sounded like a good and viable idea, so he was put into power.
Any of that seem familiar? THROUGHOUT HISTORY?!!
There is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.
What happened was beyond horrible. I completely acknowledge the victims and their families. I do not want anyone to forget it, lest history repeat itself. But...what will this deportation do? Does it bring anyone back? Does throwing a shamed elderly man out of the USA really satisfy someone's primal need for revenge?
Anyway, it's a difficult topic for everyone concerned. But knowing ALL of history, not just the shiny parts, helps put it in perspective. | |
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Anna*Banana
:blink:
PeaNut 69,360
February 2003
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 8:22:04 PM
Amelia Bloomer, no one suggested it is a perfect world or that all cases are handled as we'd want them too or as quickly. But it's not the norm, most soldiers do act honorably, and the behavior is NOT condoned or is part of the US policy. And that makes it all VERY VERY different than what the topic is here. |
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AmeliaBloomer
BucketHead
PeaNut 509,476
May 2011
Posts: 514
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| Posted: 12/7/2012 9:12:57 PM
^I never said rape had ANY similarity to the thread topic. That's why I labeled my comment a hijack.
(You and I probably disagree about the military's responsiveness to rape, but neither one of us is saying that it's officially condoned.)
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tlc0963
PeaAddict
PeaNut 55,356
November 2002
Posts: 1,396
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Loc: Chesapeake, VA
| Posted: 12/10/2012 10:31:33 AM
Does throwing a shamed elderly man out of the USA really satisfy someone's primal need for revenge?
Again, we are not 'throwing' an elderly man out of the U.S. to 'satisfy someone's primal need for revenge;' he will be deported because he BROKE THE LAW - he LIED on his application for citizenship. That is the U.S's only concern. Once he returns to Germany or . . . it is up to a International (military?) tribunal as to what, if any, consequence he will face, endure or suffer due to his affiliation with and VOLUNTARY participation in the NAZI regime and SS.
Just stick to the facts:
A German emigrated to this country
The same German applied for U.S. citizenship and LIED on his application
The same German, based on his FALSE application was given citizenship
It was discovered that this German BROKE THE LAW for submitting a FALSE application
This German (U.S. citizen) is facing the consequences (deportation) for his ILLEGAL actions - entering the U.S. and LYING on his request for citizenship
That's it. Do NOT, assign any other reason behind the U.S. concern with, or an action it takes, in this this man's case. |
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