Do you think this is racist or just poor taste?

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Posted 12/6/2012 by janet r in NSBR Board
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batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 8:43:50 PM

I think white people love to get offended about everything, but especially about something that is not directly offensive to them.


I think some people throw this argument out there to make their prejudices seem not-so-bad when the tide is turning in a world that realizes that it's not ok to subjugate, mock or marginalize people for their differences.

If we only stand up when it offends us directly, we are worth little. This is exactly the mentality that lets bullies thrive. It is only when bystanders speak up that those who are in the wrong will be shamed into realizing people won't stand for their crap. Kitty Genovese thanks you.

signed,
a white person with a hidden minority status (Jew)



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janet r
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Posted: 12/7/2012 8:55:50 PM

I think white people love to get offended about everything, but especially about something that is not directly offensive to them. Like someone said on another thread - It's a national pastime.


I also think this attitude is why a lot of people, white people in this case, give up on giving a crap. Because who cares anyway? Right?

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 9:03:33 PM
If the majority doesn't stand up for the minorities, the minorities don't stand a chance. The civil rights movement would not have been successful without a broad appeal to AMERICANS regardless of race.


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janet r
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Posted: 12/7/2012 9:06:14 PM
Batya, I agree with everything you said.

Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/7/2012 9:40:25 PM
Kitty Genovese?? Seriously??? That's not even remotely related, but whatever.

There is a difference between standing up for human rights and getting offended over everything. When you get offended over little things it takes away from the truly important big things. One of my BEST friends is black. And she constantly tells me that it's embarrassing when white people get offended on her behalf, when she herself is not offended. Something that she would just roll her eyes at, white people get up in arms about. And all my non-white friends feel that way. And I was the honorary member of an all-hispanic sorority. So I've heard it all. So please don't say my attitude leads to bullying. It leads to equality. They want to get to a point where they can be the same. Pointing these things out only makes them stand out more. You'll be shocked how many of them are against affirmative action too. They want to get to a point where poking fun at Puerto Ricans is the same as poking fun at hipsters.
My point is - let THEM get offended first, and then you support them. Don't get offended on their behalf and expect a pat on the back.




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angievp
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Posted: 12/7/2012 9:55:30 PM

I think that it's easier to get a college education when you are born and raised in a country where the unemployment rate isn't 60% and you are hoping to get into another country just so you CAN mow lawns and send the dollars back home to your family. Going to college isn't the first thing on your mind b/c you have to live hand to mouth. Mommy and Daddy aren't paying for you to have cute little sorority parties and iPhones and cars and such.

Do I think he has a mind where in better circumstances he can be successful in college? Why not! He would take it more seriously than a lot of American kids who take it for granted b/c he would likely realize this is the way out of poverty.

The reason the Mexican lawn guy could never be in this place is b/c they can't get the funds or practically spend 4 years learning when they have to spend every waking moment working. Getting an education is a LUXURY. That's why your lawn guy can't do it. When will these kids realize they are living a dream?


You know, Batya, I thank you for saying this. I really do.

So much of Latin culture is pasteurized to make it palatable for "anglo" tastes that it just becomes meaningless. Like a silly looking party dress for Cinco de Mayo. It becomes a joke. To say that your "Mexican friend" is not offended doesn't mean it isn't offensive. *I'm* not Mexican, but I am offended by the assumption that Mexicans are "fence jumpers" and gardeners, etc.

Those girls are clueless, but in all honesty, I don't expect any different. When I visited Texas 4 years ago, people would ask me, knowing I'm an attorney, if I spoke English. I've travelled to Connecticut and people have asked me if I know how to speak "the Spanish," and whether it's safe in Miami with "all those Latin people." People have commented to me with astonishment, "Wow, you speak English so well!," as if that's something rare.

But I think it's easier to dismiss people as having thin skin or bein politically correct. It's about respecting other people's culture.

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:02:08 PM
Seriously. I'm talking about people turning their back on others when it has nothing to do with them personally. That is what you said.

So if people are white, they should not worry about anyone else?

I don't agree. And lots of white and other-color-of-the-rainbow peas also don't agree. Just b/c I am not personally affected doesn't mean I shouldn't stand up and say something is wrong if I think it's wrong.


I think white people love to get offended about everything, but especially about something that is not directly offensive to them.


To me, this mindset is whack. It's said by someone who wants to be able to mock people without negative ramifications and it's easiest to malign the people who disagree with it.
'I'm not wrong! It's those oversensitive WHITE people who shouldn't even care b/c they're not -fill in the blank- (hispanic/black/asian/etc)' Yes. You figured out we whites. We sit around in our white people enclaves and try to figure out the white agenda-what can we take offense to that has no bearing on our lives. And now that I know you are non-white, may I say, that was a racist comment? Or will I be accused of 'taking offense?' At least this was directed toward my 'kind.'


One of my BEST friends is black.


Yes, I've heard that one before.

I hope you noticed there ARE hispanics on this thread who are offended and think it's wrong to do what these kids did. So if Fraidy is offended first, is my righteous indignation given the stamp of approval according to you?

And who said everyone who said it's wrong on this thread is WHITE? Your anecdotal evidence can be matched with anecdotal evidence of the opposite opinion.

I just think those sorority chicks are making themselves and Penn State look STUPID. If they want to look stupid, have at it. I'm not offended. I never said I was offended. But I do think it's stupid and wrong. I'm entitled to that opinion even if you are an honor level hispanic with an AA BFF. That doesn't make your opinion superior to mine. But thanks for sharing your credentials.

I have a lifelong superclose black guy friend who goes around calling me 'little sis.' He has stood up for me, protective of me. We met as kids. What I want to know is WTH this has to do with anything. It's not germane to this topic. I can match you for close black friend for close black friend. So???


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batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:13:06 PM
angie-thanks for posting that. Apparently my white opinion isn't going so far with some. But I'm fairly sure you're a Latina so maybe your opinion counts.

I really consider myself pampered and spoiled. I was raised in a one bedroom, one bath, 1000 sq ft apt by an unhappily married intact family of teachers who owned one car. I always had food on the table, new clothes and they were able to save and sacrifice to pay for my college and law school. I KNOW how fortunate I was.

And I understand the flipside as well. It's not just--well, you think my Mexican lawn guy can't go? Well, no, he can't b/c you aren't financing it or feeding his family. I wish he could but even if he was a Mensa member, he can't go but spoiled sorority chick can.

So when I see them being flippant about people and being so rude and yes, elitist, I don't like it. I wouldn't approve of my children behaving this way and I don't think it's all in good fun. Maybe your Mexican friend laughs. And maybe even your lawn guy laughs if Penn State, FB and spoiled sorority girls are on his radar. But it doesn't mean it's really funny or right or respectful. It doesn't make the sorority or Penn State look good.

If that makes me an overly offended white person or a stick in the mud, that's ok. I'm in good company as I can see on this thread. I'd rather be in the company of high class people who care about the rights and feelings of others than those who don't. If that makes me some kind of elitist snob so be it. But I'm the elitist snob who chats with the lawn guys and brings them a cup of coffee and wants to know how their kids are, where they're from. I don't walk by them as if they are beneath me. B/c they aren't just "Mexicans' or whatever. They are people with experiences, cultures and feelings. They are my peers. Maybe that lesson can get through to these stupid girls.


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AussieMeg
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:21:38 PM
I'm proud to be in your company Batya.

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:23:50 PM
Back at you Aussie friend.


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angievp
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:25:26 PM

angie-thanks for posting that. Apparently my white opinion isn't going so far with some. But I'm fairly sure you're a Latina so maybe your opinion counts.


Yes, I'm a Latina, but I'm not Mexican. I'm Nicaraguan, so I suppose only 3/4 of my opinion is important! Mexico sets the tone culturally for so many things in Latin America that it's not even funny. Latin culture is so rich and diverse, that it really does make my blood boil when I see crap like this.

I really do appreciate your comments.

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:35:27 PM
Actually, my area is heavily Guatemalan.

(DH has a friend in town with a connection to Nicaragua, though he isn't Nicaraguan-just plain old white/Jewish- and he drives down there every couple years and brings school and medical supplies to a town, I think he brought them a fire truck, etc. He brings HS students down and he loves traveling there.)

ETA: I always appreciate your comments, so thanks.


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angievp
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:37:47 PM

(DH has a friend in town with a connection to Nicaragua, though he isn't Nicaraguan-just plain old white/Jewish- and he drives down there every couple years and brings school and medical supplies to a town, I think he brought them a fire truck, etc. He brings HS students down and he loves traveling there.)


That's pretty cool. Thank your friend for me! The people need any help they can get. Yes, Nicaragua is a gorgeous country, but the government isn't so great

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:44:34 PM
Isn't it! He's really amazing in that he really feels called upon to help others and finds the means to do so and mobilize others.

I've heard that so many countries in Central America are just beautiful. I haven't seen for myself yet. I have to pay for my 3 to go to college so they can be perfect and not stupid.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:50:47 PM
Wow, ok, so just because other people use "black friend" as an excuse then me actually having one is irrelevant. What the hell do you want me to say? You need me to prove that I really do hang out with minorities before my opinion on their issues matters? You are ridiculous. You're from NYC, Batya, no? I grew up in Washington Heights, since I was 11. All my friends were non-white. I hung out with non-whites in college. My law firm is 75% black. My 2 best friends are a Jew and a black girl. Do I have enough cred for you now?
And you conveniently missed the fact where I did say this was racist. It's the 3rd post, so you didn't even have to wade through all these pages! But just because it's racist, it doesn't mean it's something to get all up in arms about. It's not classy, but it's not an ACLU level offense either.
Now if angievp finds this offensive, then it's respectable and she has every right to be. My point is when the actual minorities get offended then us white people should and must back them up. But IME we often get offended too quickly and too over the top. And if my friends think it's too much, then I will take their opinion over your Batya. Surely you understand, you having a black brother and all.




Meow!

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:54:03 PM
My point was who our friends are and what color skin they have is totally irrelevant, but you missed that while you were getting irate and defensive.

I can say what I want about whomever I want without permission from you. I can defend rights and people b/c it's the right thing to do. You may disagree. So you speak only when you get permission and I will speak when I please. Works for me.


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angievp
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:54:44 PM

Isn't it! He's really amazing in that he really feels called upon to help others and finds the means to do so and mobilize others.

I've heard that so many countries in Central America are just beautiful. I haven't seen for myself yet. I have to pay for my 3 to go to college so they can be perfect and not stupid.


Yes, they are. The beaches are to die for!! You should go.

batya
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Posted: 12/7/2012 10:57:07 PM
I will. When my kids graduate, are successful and pay for me to go. I'll have an empty nest at 49 y/o so I'll still be young enough to enjoy it (knock on wood).


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CountryHam
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Posted: 12/7/2012 11:13:59 PM

Racist? No. Mexican is not a race, so it couldn't be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Semantics.


LOL.. there was a whole thread on semantics that
got people here really upset. The Messianic Jews,
vs Jews by religion, culture whatever.. trust me
A good majority of us understood what is means when
someone says "I am messianic jew" but boy oh boy
folks were not willing to defer to mere semantics
but spent pages on educating the board how they were
wrong. Semantics people, semantics. Common sense out
the window.

Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/7/2012 11:20:33 PM

My point was who our friends are and what color skin they have is totally irrelevant, but you missed that while you were getting irate and defensive


irate and defensive? You have not seen me be irate and defensive. And you never will since I don't allow internet people get me to that stage.
And you just love twisting things around. My friends don't tell me when to speak, I choose when to do so, and I choose not to get offended at things. Especially when it is to the detriment of my friends and not in their support.
And you don't get to decide what's relevant and what's not. You like to think you're always right around here, but you're wrong this time. My 18 years of experience trump anything you can ever say to me regarding this issue.
You like to zone in one one thing, one sentence, and attack when no attack is necessary. Issue spotting gets you credit, but making a valid argument based on ALL issues is what gets you an A. You should know that better than most, and yet you don't. tsk-tsk. You accused me of saying what I did "to make [my] prejudices seem not-so-bad." How can I not get defensive over that. That's twice in one week you have accused me of saying horrible things without getting the whole story. Why is that? To make others look bad? To make yourself look holier than thou? I don't know and I don't care.

Oh, and Happy Hanukkah! I really do mean it, but I'm sure you'll make a Federal case out this somehow.




Meow!

mamashosh
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Posted: 12/7/2012 11:53:35 PM

Oh, and Happy Hanukkah! I really do mean it, but I'm sure you'll make a Federal case out this somehow


Seriously? If you want to say something nice, it would go over better without attaching something nasty to it.

The issue is not whether or not you have 'good credentials as a friend to People of Color.' The issue is that Batya and I and a whole lot of other people believe that it is important to combat injustice wherever we see it , and not wait for the victims to be doubly slammed when they have to stand up by themselves. You believe in waiting and being told when it is ok to stand up for people's rights. Makes no sense to me.



Simply_Lovely
AncestralPea

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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:33:25 AM
Nasty? Whatever. I have a menorah in my window right at this moment. My father and husband are Jewish, FFS. Oh, is that not enough for you too? Should I bring up my grandmother who is in a blockade in St. Petersburg? Or picture from my wedding with the rabbi in it? I can't believe I have to prove everything around here in order to have a "valid" opinion. Ridiculous. Wow.
And like I said I am not told when to speak up, but whatever makes you feel better. Pick and choose which of my words you want to focus on. That will get you far.

Apparently not only am I not republican enough, but now I am not liberal enough. I will go cry myself to sleep now.




Meow!

mamashosh
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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:47:32 AM

Nasty? Whatever. I have a menorah in my window right at this moment. My father and husband are Jewish, FFS. Oh, is that not enough for you too? Should I bring up my grandmother who is in a blockade in St. Petersburg? Or picture from my wedding with the rabbi in it? I can't believe I have to prove everything around here in order to have a "valid" opinion. Ridiculous. Wow.


Wow is right. The nasty part was not wishing her a Happy Chanukah. The nasty part was saying she would probably make a federal case out of it.
I didn't ask you for your Jewish credentials, never crossed my mind whether you were Jewish or not or knew Jews or not. Irrelevant. You didn't have to prove anything. Your comment was nasty no matter what your religious background or relationships are. It had nothing to do with religion; it was saying something nice but finishing with something nasty in the same sentence. Sheesh.



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Posted: 12/8/2012 8:23:47 AM

If that makes me an overly offended white person or a stick in the mud, that's ok. I'm in good company as I can see on this thread. I'd rather be in the company of high class people who care about the rights and feelings of others than those who don't. If that makes me some kind of elitist snob so be it. But I'm the elitist snob who chats with the lawn guys and brings them a cup of coffee and wants to know how their kids are, where they're from. I don't walk by them as if they are beneath me. B/c they aren't just "Mexicans' or whatever. They are people with experiences, cultures and feelings. They are my peers. Maybe that lesson can get through to these stupid girls.


There is a lot of wisdom here.

You can never, ever go wrong trying to treat another person with dignity and respect. You can never, ever go wrong by avoiding poking fun at another person's culture, heritage, nationality, economic status, religion, disability, or appearance. You can never, ever go wrong by treating another person well no matter what their status in life is.

And the opposite is true - see how a stupid, silly joke that probably wasn't really intended to offend (but also wasn't intended to avoid offense) has backfired on those girls?

redayh
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Posted: 12/8/2012 8:47:45 AM
It's in poor taste, racist and above all, very, very classist.
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Posted: 12/8/2012 9:48:51 AM
Racist and not funny at all.
What classy girls huh? I bet their parents are so proud.


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Fraidyscrapper
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Posted: 12/8/2012 10:02:34 AM
Batya, if I make you an honorary Latina, can you hook an Hermana up w some pupusas? Yeah, that's the stuff. No pasteurized-milk cheese - just the stuff of champions!


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Fraidyscrapper
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Posted: 12/8/2012 10:07:00 AM
Simply, you're not making a damn bit of sense now. You won't listen to anything Batya has to say, because your lifetime of experience trumps her lifetime of experience? And, it's racist, but nothing to get upset over? Either you aren't thinking consistently or you aren't writing clearly. Wanna revise and extend?


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batya
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Posted: 12/8/2012 10:22:13 AM

You can never, ever go wrong trying to treat another person with dignity and respect.


So simple and yet so hard for some to understand.

Fraidy-can I just be an honorary Latina, just like that? Pupusas-maybe but not the pork kind. MMMkay?


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Fraidyscrapper
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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:03:52 PM
Batya, one pupusa is all it takes. And I never had a pork one. Honduras is too poor for that ish. Cheese, bean, or bean and cheese when you are feeling fancy.


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Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:14:12 PM

The nasty part was saying she would probably make a federal case out of it.


Batya has been nitpicking everything I've said for the past two days, so yeah, I am sure she would've said something about it, or thought I was sarcastic. Maybe she is bored now that the election is over and the Israel threads are off the front the page. I don't know her reasons and I don't care.
All I am going to say is that it is arrogant to think that these "poor little minorities" need white people to fight all their battles for them. They can hold their own in this day and age. Instead of screaming "That's Raaaaaacist!!" at every turn, just teach your kids what's right and wrong, and do it by example and by friendship. Not by being overly PC with everything and everyone. You don't know how they feel about things, and don't pretend to, because you're not in their situation. White arrogance and self-righteousness at it's finest.




Meow!

batya
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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:19:09 PM
I haven't been picking at everything you said. That's giving yourself too much import. I've coincidentally been picking up on things that don't make sense and they both happened to have been said by you.

I teach my kids by example. The example that if someone is being put upon you don't stand idly by and let it happen. You get out of your comfort zone, don't be a bystander and say something. There are some Latinas on this thread who said they appreciated it. So I got the permission you said I needed.

ETA: And let's remember. YOU were one of the first ones on the first page to say it was racist. So you are now officially arguing against yourself.



Simply_Lovely
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Posted: 12/6/2012 5:10:24 PM
The signs took it right into racist territory.





Instead of screaming "That's Raaaaaacist!!" at every turn, just teach your kids what's right and wrong


I'm waiting for you to tell me I put words in your mouth or twisted things around.


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batya
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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:31:08 PM

You don't know how they feel about things, and don't pretend to, because you're not in their situation. White arrogance and self-righteousness at it's finest
.

Almost missed this gem. I have been a minority all my life. A Jew. A white-majority, but Jew-minority. So I have actually straddled both worlds. Don't you dare tell me what I have lived and what situation I've been in. Maybe THAT is why I know exactly what a minority feels like and why I have a heart. Until you have walked in MY shoes don't you tell me what I've lived. That is the height of arrogance.

I will never be convinced by the likes of you that it is better to put up and shut up than it is to be considerate and err on the side of caution. Maybe you have a Jewish relative and a Jewish friend but I am a Jew and you cannot tell me what my experience has been or how easy or difficult it is. I am a minority who looks like a majority and people who don't know think they can say all sorts of things.

You're telling me what I should and shouldn't do yet you are telling everyone what it's like for minorities. B/c you are every type of minority? How bout you do it your way and I do it my way?

And while you're at it you can stop hating on white people.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Carey Ayn
why

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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:38:52 PM
I agree with Batya on pretty much everything she has said.


You can never, ever go wrong trying to treat another person with dignity and respect. You can never, ever go wrong by avoiding poking fun at another person's culture, heritage, nationality, economic status, religion, disability, or appearance. You can never, ever go wrong by treating another person well no matter what their status in life is.

And the opposite is true - see how a stupid, silly joke that probably wasn't really intended to offend (but also wasn't intended to avoid offense) has backfired on those girls?


I try to live my life this way. Very well said.



janet r
AncestralPea

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Posted: 12/8/2012 12:50:59 PM

All I am going to say is that it is arrogant to think that these "poor little minorities" need white people to fight all their battles for them. They can hold their own in this day and age. Instead of screaming "That's Raaaaaacist!!" at every turn, just teach your kids what's right and wrong, and do it by example and by friendship. Not by being overly PC with everything and everyone. You don't know how they feel about things, and don't pretend to, because you're not in their situation. White arrogance and self-righteousness at it's finest.




I'm not sure what you mean by "in this day and age" but as a white person interacting with mostly white people I hear racist comments frequently. It's very much alive and I'm just supposed to say or do nothing because it's overly PC? As long as it doesn't hurt anyone I guess? I am not even sure what you're trying to say.

angievp
Ideay pues?

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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:02:58 PM

Fraidy-can I just be an honorary Latina, just like that? Pupusas-maybe but not the pork kind. MMMkay?


I'll second that motion. You both can come over here and I can take you both to salvadorian, nicaraguan and guatemalan restaurants. Better yet, we can go to the Homestead pulgero (flea market) (if you are adventurous) and they have some pupusas TO. DIE. FOR.


Fraidyscrapper
She calls me a Fun Sucker

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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:06:22 PM
Simply, Batya, AngieVP, and I are officially on a road trip now. I suggest you make Lovely with us and climb on board. Nothing is worth arguing about when there are pupusas, tamales, and empanadas.


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
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angievp
Ideay pues?

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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:08:31 PM

Simply, Batya, AngieVP, and I are officially on a road trip now. I suggest you make Lovely with us and climb on board. Nothing is worth arguing about when there are pupusas, tamales, and empanadas.


..sprinkled with hot sauce!!!

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:18:12 PM
Only if we bring my sister. She loves trying all sorts of new cuisine.

ETA: Is 'make lovely with us' a new euphemism? I like it!



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




PeasfulHeart
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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:35:47 PM
You can slap whatever labels you want to on what these girls did. I think it was an incredibly ignorant thing to do and I'm pissed. I won't defend them at all.

I had started to write a lengthy response this morning, had to leave it for several hours and then I came back to moveablefeast's much better way of wording what I wanted to say:


You can never, ever go wrong trying to treat another person with dignity and respect. You can never, ever go wrong by avoiding poking fun at another person's culture, heritage, nationality, economic status, religion, disability, or appearance. You can never, ever go wrong by treating another person well no matter what their status in life is.


This is how I have attempted to live my life, and to teach my kids how to live. Every person has dignity and worth.

That's why there's something that's really sticking in my craw here.

Who gets to decide which groups are worthy of defending? And which groups are o.k. to attack?

I'm referring to all the disparaging remarks made about sorority "chicks" in general, and Penn State in particular. Neither myself nor my daughters chose to be in a sorority, so I have no personal reason to defend them. But why is it o.k. that not only are these sweeping judgments made of "rich sorority girls" made, but not one person has stepped in to defend the group as a whole?

And of the 40,000 students at Penn State's main campus, 39,970 were not involved in mocking Mexicans, yet not one person has defended the sweeping negative remarks about Penn State.

So someone please give me a list of the groups we should treat with respect and dignity and those which are exempt.


Life is mostly froth and bubble, two things stand like stone. Kindness in another's trouble, courage in your own. -Adam Lindsay Gordon

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/8/2012 1:53:02 PM
As far as the sorority 'chicks,' my point is that these girls are making all sorority girls look bad. Why? B/c based on their poor judgment, right or wrong, people will make assumptions about sororities.

As for Penn State, these girls represent the university. If the school is defending their 'rights' to make the statements and isn't taking a harder line against this kind of activity, what should we think?

They already came off a very bad PR situation and now have these kids with poor judgment dragging them into the media again. Not smart all around. It reflects badly on the school. It just does.

The question was, is this racist? You can't be racist by saying something negative about Penn State. I also think the things on the thread are all true. They just happen to be negative. They had a terrible couple years. They didn't handle the situation well. Some are personal opinions and experiences about Penn State. You can't dispute those. And you can't compare them to racism, for heaven's sake.

As for those other 39K Penn State students, they should also be pissed as hell about this. Why should they be made to look bad b/c of the poor judgment of these girls to not only do this but make it public? Who ever said anything about the rest of the students being to blame? I think you're a bit hypersensitive about Penn State.

If you really care about Penn State, you wouldn't just want negative publicity to go away. You would want the people doing things that cause the negative publicity to care more about Penn State and cast a more positive image on the school. You're placing blame on the wrong people.

If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who was defending Penn State and Paterno when all of the horrific details were coming out.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Compwalla
Pastafarian Pea

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Posted: 12/8/2012 2:07:45 PM
There is racism that is overt hatred and is very personal and there is racism that is casual and institutional and less obvious because the people perpetuating it may not even realize that's what they're doing. Both are wrong and hurtful. It's seen in the way that two resumes, one with a "black" name and one with a "white" name are not judged equally qualified even when the resumes are the same. Or when college girls think it's hilarious to dress up as "Mexicans" where all the costumes make them look like illegal border crossers or gardeners or maids. Or when clothing designers take sacred motifs from Native Americans and put them on "Navajo" underpants and parade underwear-clad models down the runway with full feathered headdresses. Or when media only depicts Asians as computer nerds who can't pronounce their r's.

The way you combat that is to call attention to casual racism and call it what it is: racism. Not poor taste or bad judgement. It might not be hatred or prejudice but it is racism, an unfair and biased depiction of another race or culture. And it's ok for anyone to point it out whether you're white, Black, Latina, Asian, or Native American.



Virginia

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. --Susan B. Anthony

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Fraidyscrapper
She calls me a Fun Sucker

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Posted: 12/8/2012 3:18:09 PM
Angie, I am Central American. No spices for us. How racist of you


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
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huskergal
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Posted: 12/8/2012 4:26:30 PM
moveablefeast: I love your post and you summed up the big picture into the very small important piece that everyone should live by!


Susan



CnBsmommy
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Posted: 12/8/2012 5:26:01 PM
bullies thrive because people don't stand up to them directly & often if someone tries, it's a weak effort.

ETA: bullying is thrown around too much now also. A sensitive child with parents who don't teach them to truly stand up & helicopter over them, don't let them fail, will NOT learn how to stand up on their own & will get taken advantage of. Aggressive parents, who don't learn social skills & mistreat their kids, who aren't learning social/life skills will often raise kids who aren't secure in themselves & then have to make fun of/pick on others, & in extreme cases, bully.

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/8/2012 7:38:02 PM
You have all the answers on bullies and bullying? The experts, the psychologist, child development specialists and educators among others all say that it's the bystanders remaining quiet empowers the bully. If people would stand up and say NO! and defend someone being victimized, the power the bully has would be removed b/c he or she can stand up against one who seems fearful. But he can't stand up against 2, 3, 10 or 20.

Where you got your info I don't know, but I disagree wholeheartedly. As a child who had experiences and as a parent.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




huskergal
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Posted: 12/8/2012 8:43:39 PM
I wonder how many people on this thread who tell people they should lighten up etc., get in a tizzy if someone uses the greeting, "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"?


Susan



PeasfulHeart
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Posted: 12/8/2012 10:30:09 PM

As far as the sorority 'chicks,' my point is that these girls are making all sorority girls look bad. Why? B/c based on their poor judgment, right or wrong, people will make assumptions about sororities.


OK, I have no argument with this, other than the fact that if this was said against a "race," you would be up in arms about it, and rightly so. But because the GROUP is not a RACE, apparently it's perfectly understandable and justifiable that these sweeping assumptions are made. So sorry, sorority girls, you're screwed! You should've been a race, and then your dignity and worth as jen-yew-wine Coach-carryin'-rich-bitch- individuals would have been defended!


As for Penn State, these girls represent the university.


Again, Batya, if you really believe this, why is there never any mention in any of your posts of anything like "As for black people, these people represent the race, so you
should totally understand why people will judge you for it when one of your own does _______________; your whole race will rightly be lumped into one big ol' way-to-go-black-people!" or "Sorry, Mexicans, when one of your members does _____________, you WILL be judged for it. So sorry, that's just how we humans roll!" :Shrug!:: I'll tell why you've never mentioned it -- because IT WOULD BE TOTALLY UNFAIR TO JUDGE AN ENTIRE RACE/GROUP/RELIGION/POLITICAL PARTY/UNIVERSITY/WHATEVER-THE-HELL-GROUP-ANYONE-CAN-COME-UP-WITH in one fell swoop. As you, yourself agreed with moveablefeast: (to summarize) EVERY PERSON DESERVES RESPECT AND DIGNITY!!

If the school is defending their 'rights' to make the statements and isn't taking a harder line against this kind of activity, what should we think?

Hmmm.... You go ahead and ignore the bigger picture of what the university is stating. Here's the main part of what was stated on the link you provided:


"This photo has been brought to our attention, and we have looked into the issue," Lisa Powers, director of public information at Penn State, said in a statement to Yahoo News.

"The students in the photo are within their First Amendment rights to express themselves in this way," Powers said. "Although we are certainly appalled that they would display this level of insensitivity and lack of judgment."

Furthermore, Powers added, "These costumes and this group do not represent fraternity and sorority life at Penn State, nor the 95,000 students who attend our university. The Chi Omega sorority sisters have expressed deep remorse over this incident."

How irresponsible to summarize PSU's position by showing only the line that says the sorority is within their First Amendment rights.



As for Penn State, these girls represent the university. If the school is defending their 'rights' to make the statements and isn't taking a harder line against this kind of activity, what should we think?

They already came off a very bad PR situation and now have these kids with poor judgment dragging them into the media again. Not smart all around. It reflects badly on the school. It just does.


Again, I don't see anyone in authority at PSU defending the behavior of this group. Let me just grab one of the first links that came up when I googled the subject:




http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/penn-state-sorority-condemned-for-mocking-latinos/



The question was, is this racist? You can't be racist by saying something negative about Penn State. I also think the things on the thread are all true. They just happen to be negative. They had a terrible couple years. They didn't handle the situation well. Some are personal opinions and experiences about Penn State. You can't dispute those. And you can't compare them to racism, for heaven's sake.


I missed the part where I compared Penn State to racism, "for heaven's sake," The original OP's question was "is this racist?" But eventually the main point became "Is it OK for any group of people to be treated the way this group of girls seemed to be treating the way that the Mexican "race" was treated? And moveablefeast summed it up eloquently, as many (including you, Batya) agreed.



As for those other 39K Penn State students, they should also be pissed as hell about this. Why should they be made to look bad b/c of the poor judgment of these girls to not only do this but make it public?


It sounds like you're assuming they're not pissed?




Who ever said anything about the rest of the students being to blame?


Not me. I never said anyone was blaming the rest of the students. I simply said there were several negative staments being made about Penn State and no one (you especially, defender-of-all-innocent-people Batya) jumped in to defend the tens of thousands of students who were being lumped in with the (very) few who had done wrong.


I think you're a bit hypersensitive about Penn State.



I'd love to see you have the balls to say that to any other group where the faults of a few were laid on the feet of the whole, ffs.



If you really care about Penn State, you wouldn't just want negative publicity to go away. You would want the people doing things that cause the negative publicity to care more about Penn State and cast a more positive image on the school. You're placing blame on the wrong people.


a ) I DO care about Penn State.

b ) I just re-read my post 3 times and I'm missing where insinuated that I "just want negative publicity to go away." Or where I gave the impression that I don't "want the people doing things that cause the negative publicity to care more about Penn State and cast a more positive image on the school." What "blame am I placing on the wrong people?"


If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who was defending Penn State and Paterno when all of the horrific details were coming out.


As far as this parting shot, unfortunately I can't access my comments
of a year ago when the shit first hit the fan here at Penn State. But if you want to go there, let's start another thread and not take away from your outrage of the groups of people who have been treated unfairly.


Life is mostly froth and bubble, two things stand like stone. Kindness in another's trouble, courage in your own. -Adam Lindsay Gordon

Fraidyscrapper
She calls me a Fun Sucker

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Posted: 12/8/2012 11:06:24 PM
PeasfulHeart, you really see no distinction between a voluntary association and an "immutable characteristic"?


"The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country." - Robert F. Kennedy
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PEArfect
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 12/8/2012 11:07:34 PM
Do I think it's racist? No I dont. Do I think it's in poor taste? Not really. It's not any worse then stand up comedy in my opinion.


Jen

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