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Posted 12/20/2012 by mapchic in NSBR Board
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scrappower
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:39:05 PM

Brownells sells 3.5 years worth of high capacity mags in 72 hours.



No exaggeration, no hyperbole. This is the reaction to just the threat of taking these weapons away.

Whatever new laws may be enacted will have a start date, and this is absolutely nothing compared to what the demand will be before the day any new law will go active.

It is imperative that our legislators understand this so that reasonable and effective laws will be passed and not have unrealistic laws pushed through quickly because "OMG, SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE!"


Just because this is the reaction to the possibility of new laws doesn't mean that we should just say "oh well it will never work" and throw our hands up. Just because people feel they have the right to own these semi-automatic guns and stockpile ammo, doesn't mean we should ignore this tragedy and not make changes. Honestly I am at the point where I don't give a damn about their "feelings" anymore. They are willing to just keep on the way we have and then add more guns and armed volunteers into the schools, into the already dangerous mix. That is RIDICULOUS to me. Absolutely insane.



ScrapWench*
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:53:10 PM
The answer is NOT more guns. To have people armed in schools?? Have we lost our minds?! There has to be better way.

I own 2 pistols and a shotgun. I grew up around guns, but to put them in schools? I can't fathom it.


----Theresa

Krazyscrapper
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:00:45 PM

If you are serious about actually stopping school shootings, contact your state representative and tell them to look into allowing someone at your kid's school to be armed. It is time to install some speed bumps.



To do this is to admit defeat and guns have won.

Are we to put armed gunmen in every public place and in every business? Because you do remember that these mass murders aren't at just schools but in theaters, churches, & private businesses.

Armed gunmen on every cornor is that what we are suppose to do? Years ago I was in Paris just about the time they were a lot of bombings going on. There were armed military on the street cornors with machine guns. Is that what we are suppose to do now?

After the killings in CO a UK author wrote. "The real war the United States is fighting is not with terrorist but with themselves".


missbitts
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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:27:39 PM
Sylvia, someone posted that link on my FB, and it's such a good analysis from someone who knows more than most of us here combined. TFS it here. It's too bad some won't even read the whole thing before dismissing it out of hand.

Wench, you're in Spokane (Central Valley School District?) You already have armed personnel in some of your schools there.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/22/2012 1:35:15 PM
Okay I read the whole long post and I still think the same as before. More guns is not the answer and no one will convince me that it is. Ever.



mapchic
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Posted: 12/22/2012 2:41:59 PM

Hunters can own shotguns as well.
Hunters need different guns for different purposes. Shotguns are more for hunting birds. For larger animals, and smaller animals you really need a rifle. A shotgun just won't work when you are hunting Elk because it won't kill a large animal cleanly and with smaller animals it will just destroy them.


Does the lady in Walmart need a concealed weapon?
Maybe she is being stalked by someone violent and the police have made it clear that they can't protect her.


Or the student from TX need a handgun in his glovebox?
Perhaps he has a job where he brings in the night deposit of thousands of dollars and knows that if he is attacked the police will not be there to protect him. Perhaps because he lives in Texas he lives far, far from an urban area and knows that he must rely on himself for protection because the country sheriff can't be everywhere. Maybe he's just really scared of snakes (that's a joke... 'cause I am scared of snakes).


No, the average citizen shouldn't have a gun. Yes, the criminal element has them, lets be realistic here, but they shouldn't have them but that's a topic for a different thread.
I guess I don't understand the argument that we should let the criminals have guns and focus on disarming law abiding citizens. I don't think it's a topic for a different thread... on some level I think that is the topic of this thread. As a law abiding supporter of gun rights I don't agree with the position that I should be punished for other people's crimes.



So why does America have so many gun related deaths? Do you think you'd have as many if you weren't a nation that coveted its right to bear arms? What if there was a national ban on gun ownership? (I'm leaving that simplistic, not addressing hunting/sporting, gangs, criminals, etc.).

I think that comparing Canada and the US is tempting because we have so much in common. However we live in very, very different countries with very different histories, cultures, ethnicities, gov't systems, and most importantly I think very different understanding of what it means to be a Canadian or an American.

There will never be in our lifetimes a national ban on gun ownership in America.


And Canada may be better, but it's freaking cold! And btw violent crime rates go down in the winter.
So, so true!





"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 2:47:07 PM



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TraceyS
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Posted: 12/22/2012 3:26:24 PM
For those with SROs in your schools.....are they not armed? Our SRO has always been a member of the city police department who is assigned full time to the high school. He wears a standard uniform every day, including his gun, but it's never seemed unusual or caused any alarm. It never occurred to me that there would be an SRO who was not armed.

mapchic
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:08:47 PM

To do this is to admit defeat and guns have won.
Guns are inanimate objects. They neither win, nor lose.


Are we to put armed gunmen in every public place and in every business?
I think in states with CCW (that's pretty much every state but mine) it's just a question of *allowing* law abiding citizens with CCW permits to legally carry their weapons in every public place and business.


In doing some reading I have found out a statistic that I find to be comforting, but I know other people will find terrorizing. In an average year there is 1 to 10 Billion rounds of Ammunition sold in America. In a big year it's more like 12 Billion rounds of ammunition. source

If you think about it you can see that way, way, way more ammunition is purchased that is used for law abiding purposes compared to the very small percentage of ammunition that is used for illegal purposes.

The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding. I wish that those who do not know anything about guns, or personally know any gun owners would please respect that and try to find a way to not try and punish them for a crime they have not committed.




"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

lynlam
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:32:35 PM
"The answer is NOT more guns. To have people armed in schools?? Have we lost our minds?! There has to be better way. "
---------

Says who? You? Just become you don't think this is the answer, doesn't mean there isn't some serious validity to it. I know for damn sure that taking away the constitutional rights of 99.8% of American citizens who never ever use their weapons for nefarious purposes is not the answer.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.
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scrappower
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:34:46 PM

The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding. I wish that those who do not know anything about guns, or personally know any gun owners would please respect that and try to find a way to not try and punish them for a crime they have not committed.


I know plenty of gun owners, but I still feel changes need to be made. What we are doing is not working and adding more guns and ammo isn't going to fix it. Law abiding or not, there are too many guns and opportunities for tragedies like this one to happen again. Armed volunteers and concealed carry permits are not making it better. And into mind just adds more chances for more innocents to be shot or killed.



WillowJane
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:40:23 PM
For my fellow American citizens who are very vocal for gun control - those of you who share the version that citizens do not need to have guns in their possession - what would you do if you were approached by an assailant who had a weapon of any kind? How would you react? What would you do to distract the assailant? How would you get away? This setting can be walking down the street, in a grocery store, in a restaurant, in a school. I am really interested on what others would do if they were in this circumstance.




writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:40:43 PM
I find it odd that concealed carry is supposed to comfort and make us feel safe.

No one knew Adam Lanza was going to snap - until he did.

We have all acknowledged that there is no way to keep a potential Adam Lanza from getting a weapon.

Yet, I am supposed to take comfort in the idea that all the concealed carry out among us is somehow magically NOT in the hands of an Adam Lanza?

But, if it is, then the good guys will have a shoot out with the bad guys and we will just hope that none of our loved ones are caught in the crossfire?

Did that about sum it up?



This is a hunting household but the desire to take a weapon everywhere I do not share.



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scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:45:06 PM

For my fellow American citizens who are very vocal for gun control - those of you who share the version that citizens do not need to have guns in their possession - what would you do if you were approached by an assailant who had a weapon of any kind? How would you react? What would you do to distract the assailant? How would you get away? This setting can be walking down the street, in a grocery store, in a restaurant, in a school. I am really interested on what others would do if they were in this circumstance.


What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying everyone should be armed just in case someone attacks them? Nope it goes against my very nature, I will never carry a weapon. As to what I would do, it would depend on the situation. If they wer trying to rob me I would give them what they wanted. Rape, I would try to fight them off. But carrying a weapon is not an option for me personally. Nor would it make me feel safer.



lynlam
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Posted: 12/22/2012 5:55:26 PM

I know plenty of gun owners, but I still feel changes need to be made. What we are doing is not working and adding more guns and ammo isn't going to fix it. Law abiding or not, there are too many guns and opportunities for tragedies like this one to happen again. Armed volunteers and concealed carry permits are not making it better. And into mind just adds more chances for more innocents to be shot or killed.


And just how do you KNOW that having armed and trained personnel - be they teachers or cops or volunteers - would cause more innocents to be killed?

That makes zero sense. Zero! You are speaking totally out of emotion, with not a lick of common sense or logic coining into play.

There is a reason why no crazed gun man has ever shot up a gun show, or and NRA meeting, or just your average gun store. They look for fish in the proverbial barrel. And you, my dear, are all for trapping is all in that barrel.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:02:07 PM
Columbine had an armed guard and it did the absolutely no good. Putting 98,000 armed guards into each school is undoable. And am I emotional? Yes, because I am sick of the attitude some have that their guns are more important that others. Say you don't feel that way, but it comes through loud and clear in many posts. I was calm before, but now I am sick and tired of the only ones supposed to bend are those of us that want gun control. No, I will not bend anymore. I am done bending. I want changes ASAP.



scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:05:12 PM
I am appalled at the thought of putting an armed volunteer trained by the NRA into each school. There is a big difference to me.



writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:06:25 PM
There are no armed security guards in our schools.



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lynlam
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:08:34 PM
"This is a hunting household but the desire to take a weapon everywhere I do not share."

So just because you don't want to, no one else should?

Since our constitutional rights are up for debate, does this mean we can outlaw abortion too?

Because I have a hard time rectifying the outrage over innocent children's deaths from those that absolutely believe abortion on demand is a constitutionally protected right.

You want me to jump thru dangerous and illegal hoops to own a gun, which I will never use to commit a crime. But cry foul at the top of you shrilly lungs when someone suggests a woman jump thru an extra hoop before ending the life of their fetus?

And let's not forget that the regime that you wholeheartedly support and reelected supplied semi auto weapons to Mexican drug lords, resulting in hundreds of deaths to date.

The hypocrisy is horrifying!





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:15:34 PM
Lynlam I am prolife, so that analogy doesn't work for me.

MrsT I again never said I wanted to outlaw every gun, so your assumption doesn't fit either.



lynlam
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:21:11 PM

I am appalled at the thought of putting an armed volunteer trained by the NRA into each school. There is a big difference to me.


Nice to know that the thought of a trained volunteer offering a layer of protection to your children is more appalling than 26 funerals and countless devastated lives. What if one armed NRA trained guard had managed to save even one child last week? Would it have been worth it to you? Or are YOUR anti-gun principles more important than one child's life?

Yes, Columbine had an armed guard. The world has changed greatly since then. I doubt procedures would be the same for armed guards today. I venture to predict that there would be virtually no further mass school shootings if the bad guys thought spa fish or two might shoot back.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.

WillowJane
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:24:23 PM
    For my fellow American citizens who are very vocal for gun control - those of you who share the version that citizens do not need to have guns in their possession - what would you do if you were approached by an assailant who had a weapon of any kind? How would you react? What would you do to distract the assailant? How would you get away? This setting can be walking down the street, in a grocery store, in a restaurant, in a school. I am really interested on what others would do if they were in this circumstance.

    --------------

    What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying everyone should be armed just in case someone attacks them? Nope it goes against my very nature, I will never carry a weapon. As to what I would do, it would depend on the situation. If they wer trying to rob me I would give them what they wanted. Rape, I would try to fight them off. But carrying a weapon is not an option for me personally. Nor would it make me feel safer.


I am not "saying" anything. I am asking a question. I am trying to understand the other side of the equation. What specifically would you do to fight someone off in case of rape? What specifically would you do if you were walking down the street and someone tried to rob you? I understand carrying a weapon is not an option for you. I respect that. I want to understand what you would do to ensure your personal safety if you were approached by a robber/rapist/criminal and what you would do to prevent yourself from being a crime victim. We all know the police cannot be there to guarantee your safety 24x7...



writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:25:45 PM

"This is a hunting household but the desire to take a weapon everywhere I do not share."

So just because you don't want to, no one else should?


I didn't say that. Hence the use of the term "I." I can only represent my one weapons owning, no police department hunting family that thinks the NRA is full of sh#%.

I do find it interesting that it is unconscionable for the anti-gun people to expect their ideal (no concealed carry) to be forced upon others, but the opposite (concealed carry whether you like it or not) is considered A-okay?

It's a democracy - why not put it to a vote?



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lynlam
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:27:36 PM

Lynlam I am prolife, so that analogy doesn't work for me.

MrsT I again never said I wanted to outlaw every gun, so your assumption doesn't fit either.


Really? Yes, I am shocked. I can't rectify your faaaaaaaaar left beliefs on everything else with a pro-life stance. . Lol.

This place is always amazing, isn't it?





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.

Krazyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:33:21 PM

Because I have a hard time rectifying the outrage over innocent children's deaths from those that absolutely believe abortion on demand is a constitutionally protected right.


You see that is the problem with you pro-life folks who are also pro-gun. You go on and on how you value all life. I guess that only applies until someone wants to take away your guns and then not so much. You can't have it both ways.

scrappower
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:36:12 PM
Lynlam I am actually not that far left on many issues. Really. Some yes, but I am quite moderate and even to the right on a few, like the prolife......but the difference is that I don't try to legislate my personal beliefs. I am not looking for a debate on that, but just putting it out there.



Me GOP
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:57:46 PM
Perhaps a starting point, could be to standardize CCW permits.

Scrappower had indicated that Florida is very lax in this area. Here is what it looks like in Missouri.

You must pass and be documented for a firearm safety course. For me this was 4 hours long.

You must pass and be documented for a conceal carry course. For me this was 12 hours long and includes me demonstrating to the instructor that I know how to secure and am proficient across both a standard revolver and semi-automatic handgun.

To apply for a permit (notice passing the courses does not automatically mean you receive) I must go to the county Sheriff's office. Paying a fee, then the background check begins (involving the highway patrol), to which, the following applies....

A certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to subsection 7 of this section shall be issued by the sheriff or his or her designee of the county or city in which the applicant resides, if the applicant:

(1) Is at least twenty-one years of age, is a citizen of the United States and either:

(a) Has assumed residency in this state; or

( Is a member of the Armed Forces stationed in Missouri, or the spouse of such member of the military;

(2) Is at least twenty-one years of age, or is at least eighteen years of age and a member of the United States Armed Forces or honorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces, and is a citizen of the United States and either:

(a) Has assumed residency in this state;

( Is a member of the Armed Forces stationed in Missouri; or

(c) The spouse of such member of the military stationed in Missouri and twenty-one years of age;

(3) Has not pled guilty to or entered a plea of nolo contendere or been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year under the laws of any state or of the United States other than a crime classified as a misdemeanor under the laws of any state and punishable by a term of imprisonment of one year or less that does not involve an explosive weapon, firearm, firearm silencer or gas gun;

(4) Has not been convicted of, pled guilty to or entered a plea of nolo contendere to one or more misdemeanor offenses involving crimes of violence within a five-year period immediately preceding application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement or if the applicant has not been convicted of two or more misdemeanor offenses involving driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or the possession or abuse of a controlled substance within a five-year period immediately preceding application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement;

(5) Is not a fugitive from justice or currently charged in an information or indictment with the commission of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year under the laws of any state of the United States other than a crime classified as a misdemeanor under the laws of any state and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less that does not involve an explosive weapon, firearm, firearm silencer, or gas gun;

(6) Has not been discharged under dishonorable conditions from the United States Armed Forces;

(7) Has not engaged in a pattern of behavior, documented in public records, that causes the sheriff to have a reasonable belief that the applicant presents a danger to himself or others;

(8) Is not adjudged mentally incompetent at the time of application or for five years prior to application, or has not been committed to a mental health facility, as defined in section 632.005, or a similar institution located in another state following a hearing at which the defendant was represented by counsel or a representative;

(9) Submits a completed application for a certificate of qualification as described in subsection 3 of this section;

(10) Submits an affidavit attesting that the applicant complies with the concealed carry safety training requirement pursuant to subsections 1 and 2 of section 571.111;

(11) Is not the respondent of a valid full order of protection which is still in effect.

Should I meet the statutes above, then the permit is issued and I'm fingerprinted. The permit is valid for three years.

Upon receiving the permit, one must go to the Department of Revenue to have the permit, with its expiration date, applied to your driver's license. This means CCW permit holders, need to renew their driver's license twice as fast as driver's license is valid for six years here.

Now this isn't the case for every state. Missouri recognizes all states who issue CCW licenses (the only one who doesn't is Illinois), but not all states recognize Missouri's.

I know some have a "no guns period" opinion, but I'm curious for those more middle of the road, what they think of the requirements above. Reasonable? Enough? Not enough?





Tracey

writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 6:59:37 PM
Lynlam I do respect your passion for the subject.

Many of us are still in the shock and awe and unsure of what we envision the best compromise to be.

Starting with a standard training for concealed carry is probably good.

A friend who is in medical care was working last week when, in beginning to assess a patient she said the woman laughed, said "oops guess I better take this off" and set a handgun of some type on the counter. My friend hates guns and was shaken by the encounter - and by the lax attitude of the carrier like "oops forgot I had that." My impression was the the carrier in this case came off a bit of a flake - and my friend was put in an uncomfortable position of having to work at the counter with a gun she wanted to be nowhere near.



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mapchic
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:04:35 PM

Columbine had an armed guard and it did the absolutely no good.
How do we know that? What I mean is... how do we know it wouldn't have been worse without them there? We don't know that... but we do know that the presence of the armed guard didn't make it worse.


I was calm before, but now I am sick and tired of the only ones supposed to bend are those of us that want gun control. No, I will not bend anymore. I am done bending. I want changes ASAP.
I am pretty willing to bend if you take the time to look at my posts.

However, if you can't see when the other side is bending and you accuse them of doing things like putting guns above people... then you will just end up causing the other side to decide it isn't worth the effort to bend.

What I am not willing to do is relinquish my rights as an American.




I do find it interesting that it is unconscionable for the anti-gun people to expect their ideal (no concealed carry) to be forced upon others, but the opposite (concealed carry whether you like it or not) is considered A-okay?
Who is calling for people being compelled to carry guns against their will?


You see that is the problem with you pro-life folks who are also pro-gun. You go on and on how you value all life. I guess that only applies until someone wants to take away your guns and then not so much. You can't have it both ways.
None of the guns owned by anyone I know has ever led to the death of another human being. There are 200 million guns in this country and 7-12 billion rounds of ammunition sold in this country annually. They do not all lead to the deaths of human beings. In many, many cases guns are used to protect human life.





"When someone asks you 'think about what Jesus would do', remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables" -- Unknown

“I am a Roman Catholic - the one true faith, (the Microsoft of Christianity) and I know Roman Catholicism is the one true faith because Roman Catholicism tells me it’s the one true faith... And if you remember from earlier in this sentence Roman Catholicism is the one true faith – so how could it be wrong?” ~ Stephen Colbert ‘The Word’ 11-28-06

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit

Lumo
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:04:59 PM

And just how do you KNOW that having armed and trained personnel - be they teachers or cops or volunteers - would cause more innocents to be killed?



And just how do you KNOW that having armed and trained personnel WOULDN'T cause more innocents to be killed?

You don't.


---
Kelly


LBrock44
Equality for ALL

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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:15:55 PM
This is my problem: while acknowledge that the majority of gun owners are responsible, I also agree with lynlam and mapchic: lylam says:

I know for damn sure that taking away the constitutional rights of 99.8% of American citizens who never ever use their weapons for nefarious purposes is not the answer.


Mapchic states:

There are over 200,000,000 guns owned by private citizens in the United States.


I don't want to take constitutional rights away, but if, as lynlam says, 99.8% of the people will not use their weapons for nefarious purposes, and mapchic says that there are 200 million guns, that means that the .8% of guns that are in the possession of people who shouldn't own a weapon, then there are 400,000 dangerous weapons situations in our country.

Doesn't it make sense to take the high-powered semi-automatic weapons out of the equation, the guns that can kill 26 people in three minutes and fire off an additional 100 rounds during those three minutes?

I'm not a proponent of taking away hunting rifles and personal handguns that are locked up and monitored by responsible people. I AM in favor of taking away high-powered weapons that have no use in our society, and I'm also in favor of making it harder to own a gun.

FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND guns in the hands of "nefarious" people? We have got to lower those odds, we have to quit holding on to our "rights" to own guns that have no place in a peaceful society. We have to get rid of our guns, guns, guns mentality. Or tragedies like Newtown, Aurora, Columbine, ... will continue to happen.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------





We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

TinaFB
the lunatics have taken over the asylum

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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:16:05 PM
As for the self-defense question. . . I know in my heart that I could never see another human being as a "target." I do not have it in me to take a life, no matter what. I've taken self-defense classes, so I would do whatever I could, but I know I couldn't use a gun to end someone's life. So in my hands, it would be worthless or would be taken and used against me. Shoot, I don't even like watching football because of the violence!

And for the record, I didn't vote for Obama, I'm pro-life, and I'm for gun control. And I don't like generalizations. So there.


Tina


writermom1
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:17:29 PM

Who is calling for people being compelled to carry guns against their will?


No, be in public with untrained people who are carrying them.

The ability to pass a background check does not make you a good candidate for carrying a firearm. My former BIL was a pathological lying dumba#% who was eventually charged with taking photos of his own penis and posting them in a public place then "solving" the crime - while employed as an armed security guard.

Perhaps a version of gun control would feature a lot more training, licensing, annual renewal, taxes, insurance, and points if you were caught with violations. (Like the lady who "oops forgot!" She had a weapon and left it laying on the counter could be reported just as an erratic driver might)?

I like OPs suggestion that if a person is reported as a risk then no one in that household can store a weapon and it must be moved off site but how to confirm that? People understandably freak over the idea of home inspections.





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WillowJane
Running the Marathon, Not the Sprint

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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:22:08 PM
    As for the self-defense question. . . I know in my heart that I could never see another human being as a "target." I do not have it in me to take a life, no matter what. I've taken self-defense classes, so I would do whatever I could, but I know I couldn't use a gun to end someone's life. So in my hands, it would be worthless or would be taken and used against me.


TinaFB - I completely respect your honest answer and I appreciate it.

The nationwide average response time for a high priority 911 call is 11 minutes. Even if you can get to a telephone or alarm system to initiate a 911 call, what are you prepared to do in that 11 minutes until help can arrive to save yourself or the ones you love from a perpetrator?

Source: American Police Beat

This is the question I always ask myself - what am I prepared to do to protect my family since I am the first line of defense? I plan for the worst and hope for the best. Knowing that no government agency can guarantee my safety keeps me on the side of keeping guns available to the law-abiding public. Criminals will find a way to get a weapon and that will never change. Why do I want to make myself a sitting duck but outlawing the possession of a firearm?

Shifting gears a little bit - the one thing that appears to be a common denominator in the many mass killings/attempted mass killings are shooters who were taking SSRI meds/antidepressants. What I would agree to for gun control - anyone currently on an SSRI or has been on an SSRI in the past 24 months should not be able to purchase or have access to a gun of any type. How to make that happen I don't know with as disjointed as health care records are today as disjointed as our government agencies work. Considering mental health is a driving issue behind many of these events it is something that needs to be addressed.

I don't know how official the statistics at THIS website are, but it sure makes you go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm."



TinaFB
the lunatics have taken over the asylum

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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:31:41 PM

The nationwide average response time for a high priority 911 call is 11 minutes. Even if you can get to a telephone or alarm system to initiate a 911 call, what are you prepared to do in that 11 minutes until help can arrive to save yourself or the ones you love from a perpetrator?

I'm fully prepared to pray. A lot. Ahead of time, during, and after.

And my house has a very loud alarm system that is password protected. And I live in a townhouse community where my neighbors on both sides will hear my alarm going off. Outside of my home, I am incredibly vigilant about my personal safety. I don't take unnecessary risks. I stay aware. And I rely on God to get me through whatever may come. That's the best I can do. In no way do I feel that my personal safety strategies make me a sitting duck.

I've read some of the SSRI stories in the past few days. I can poke holes in so many of them. I believe that the idea that it's the SSRI's are possible causes to shootings is faulty. I think that the the reality is that mental illness itself is often part of the cause. Some mental illnesses are treated with SSRI's, some are not. Sometimes, it takes months or even years of treatment to find the right combination of meds. And, as you said, our mental health system is so broken. Treatment and med supervision can be very spotty. Very often, a general practitioner is writing a prescription for Prozac or Wellbutrin because that's what's worked on a recent patient or what they were pushed by the latest drug rep. The problem isn't the SSRI's themselves, but the lack of education, treatment, and monitoring of the mentally ill people taking them.


Tina


leftturnonly
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Posted: 12/22/2012 10:46:54 PM

Just because this is the reaction to the possibility of new laws doesn't mean that we should just say "oh well it will never work" and throw our hands up. Just because people feel they have the right to own these semi-automatic guns and stockpile ammo, doesn't mean we should ignore this tragedy and not make changes. Honestly I am at the point where I don't give a damn about their "feelings" anymore. They are willing to just keep on the way we have and then add more guns and armed volunteers into the schools, into the already dangerous mix. That is RIDICULOUS to me. Absolutely insane.


You have never read any such sentiment from anything I have ever written.

People *do* have the right to own these weapons. Feelings have nothing to do with it. This is the law.

And it doesn't matter who thinks it's ridiculous or insane. It doesn't matter who hates it, or wants to stop it, or any.other.thing.

Millions of Americans think otherwise and are legally doing something about it while they can. This is the hard truth.


And while you are going around saying that they are ridiculous and insane, they are going around saying that all the people who want abortions to kill their own child but don't want others to have guns to protect themselves, and gun-free zones that are attracting young men to them as if they instead were shooting zones because they know no one there can protect themselves are ridiculous and insane.


Keep throwing those adjectives out there. Insane. Ridiculous. Whatever. I'm telling you the consequences that have already happened.







If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



Skybar
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:35:38 PM

Are we to put armed gunmen in every public place and in every business? Because you do remember that these mass murders aren't at just schools but in theaters, churches, & private businesses.

if they need it. Do you think there should be an armed officer at a bank?

ammo sales - check how much of that is sold to our government - not including the military.




"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
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On June 28, 1787, as Governor of Pennsylvania, Benjamin Franklin hosted the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, where he moved:

"That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning."

Franklin wrote April 17, 1787:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

Benjamin Franklin wrote his epitaph:

"THE BODY of BENJAMIN FRANKLIN - Printer. Like the cover of an old book, Its contents torn out, And stripped of its lettering and gilding, Lies here, food for worms; Yet the work itself shall not be lost, For it will (as he believed) appear once more, In a new, And more beautiful edition, Corrected and amended By The AUTHOR."

batya
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:45:38 PM

Are we to put armed gunmen in every public place and in every business? Because you do remember that these mass murders aren't at just schools but in theaters, churches, & private businesses.

if they need it. Do you think there should be an armed officer at a bank?


Who exactly is paying for all these police officers to be at these public places? At banks, the bank incurs the cost of the security. So are you implying that now schools have to foot the bill for this? Or are you saying the govt does? B/c if we use police officers, your taxes are going to go up. OR it will come from somewhere else. Where? Military budget? Property taxes so that education suffers and instead of taking care of the cause we put a band aid on the effect? Everyone has a remedy without looking at the practical ramifications of that remedy.

I've seen a lot of people say, just put guards and police in the schools, etc. OK. So tell me where is this in the school budget? Or is it the govt's budget? Who is paying? These are BIG questions. And they still don't solve the problem.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




ihearth
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:56:32 PM

Who exactly is paying for all these police officers to be at these public places? At banks, the bank incurs the cost of the security. So are you implying that now schools have to foot the bill for this?


I can't speak for other places, but here in Florida, the city police department is providing the police officers at our schools. So this is coming out of our taxes. The School resource officer spends his 8-hour workday at the school. They've had a SRO at our schools the entire time my kids have been in school.

leftturnonly
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:44:47 AM
I'm waiting to read the counters to Sylvia's excellent article, which was full of specific historical facts.

Batya?





If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



gar
Whoopea!

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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:15:23 AM

what would you do if you were approached by an assailant who had a weapon of any kind? How would you react? What would you do to distract the assailant? How would you get away? This setting can be walking down the street, in a grocery store, in a restaurant, in a school. I am really interested on what others would do if they were in this circumstance.



Bear in mind that in the UK the chances of an assailant having a gun are so low as to not be a concern, it's far more likely to be a knife.

I take all sensible precautions to keep myself safe initially. I can carry a pepper spray if I do have to walk somewhere that makes me nervous (which very rarely happens).

In a public situation it's often happened that the men around have overpowered a criminal. Someone with a knife has to get very close to someone to slash or stab them so there's more time to get away or fight back or, if they do make contact, for the person to be wounded rather than killed. Also, to put it bluntly, you could shoot 10 people in the time it takes to stab one.

If I'm going to be raped, then it'll probably happen unless I can kick them in the googlies or poke them in the eye hard enough to get a few seconds to run. Someone would have to get close enough to grab me and in that situation I doubt I would be able to reach for my gun and fire in anything like a effective way anyway so having a gun wouldn't make me feel any safer.



Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


dottyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 12/23/2012 7:51:18 AM


I don't know how official the statistics at THIS website are, but it sure makes you go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm."




Not very official I wouldn't think bearing in mind that the article got it wrong about the English School boys being on anti depressant at the time they were prosecuted and found not guilty by a jury of 12 men and women in 45 minutes.


Same as in the blog article that was posted earlier - wrong again. The UK is not the highest in the league for violent crime. It's been proved that the UK data is not collected in the same way as many other countries in the definition of violent crime. We define violent crime in this country on far less of what other countries would class as violent crime. So it's comparing apples to oranges really. The data would only be correct if all countries had the same definition to the level of the violence committed.The UK classes all violence against a person in their data of violent crime irrespective of the level.

So you have to ask the question - what exactly is the definition of a violent crime ?


I would also ditto what Gar said in her post. I feel exactly the same. I feel far safer in walking the streets of Britain as it is at the moment than I would ever be if I knew the person sitting next to me on, say the underground for instance, or someone passing me in the street and knowing that person could possibly be carrying a gun.

As for having armed guard at schools. The very thought of it would horrify me. I value the freedom that my children enjoy in living out their life without having the constant fear they would have otherwise, in the belief that they were not safe and needed protection to carry out their everyday lives and enjoy their innocent childhood.
We teach our children to be vigilant, street wise and careful but we do not in-still in them the belief that every Tom, Dick or Harry is a threat to them. Doing so would teach them that EVERYONE is a threat to them and that is simply not true and could potentially be psychologically damaging to children and young people to have to live with this fear.


Rather than using your Police Officers to protect your schools, might it not be better to use those same Policemen to tackle the crimes being committed in the first place? Far better use of resources IMO.
Less crime = less fear = less of a need for guns or any other weapon as protection !











scrappower
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Posted: 12/23/2012 8:09:26 AM
Another thing about that blog post, there is a lot of blaming the evil liberals, but no ownership that there is an issue or compromise at all. And that is what is wrong with this country. No one is willing to meet and figure out a mutually acceptable solution. Yes, I spoke out in anger yesterday after post after post of how nothing will change, pry it out of my dead hands, etc. But I would like to find a compromise, but sadly I don't feel that will ever happen.



lynlam
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Posted: 12/23/2012 8:50:36 AM

Lynlam I am actually not that far left on many issues. Really. Some yes, but I am quite moderate and even to the right on a few, like the prolife......but the difference is that I don't try to legislate my personal beliefs. I am not looking for a debate on that, but just putting it out there.


Well you and I are far more alike than I think we ever imagined.

I do not try to legislate my "beliefs" unless those beliefs align with the constitutional rights that we all have.

I may passionately engage in a pro-life debate, but I don't think you can find anywhere that I ever said that abortion SHOULD be made illegal. I WISH it could, but I don't believe it should be made illegal by a FEDERAL mandate. I can get behind laws like requiring a woman to have a sonogram before an abortion, because it adds one more layer of protection for the life of the fetus and for the health of the woman. And the right to life is the most basic right of all, so I can justify those laws, to a point. I can also, however, argue against them too. It is never a black and white issue.


Lynlam I do respect your passion for the subject.


Thank you. This hits so close to home, because our livelihood depends on the firearm industry. I know many many many good people in this industry. So many that would be harmed greatly if a full on ban was instituted. Businesses would close, thousands of people would lose their jobs.


A friend who is in medical care was working last week when, in beginning to assess a patient she said the woman laughed, said "oops guess I better take this off" and set a handgun of some type on the counter. My friend hates guns and was shaken by the encounter - and by the lax attitude of the carrier like "oops forgot I had that." My impression was the the carrier in this case came off a bit of a flake - and my friend was put in an uncomfortable position of having to work at the counter with a gun she wanted to be nowhere near.


And that makes me sad...but I understand. Before I met DH, I had never been around guns. I would have been terrified too. But now I understand that a gun can not hurt you. A gun laying on a table can not hurt you. There is no reason to be afraid at all. We have to address this issue, IMO.


I don't want to take constitutional rights away, but if, as lynlam says, 99.8% of the people will not use their weapons for nefarious purposes, and mapchic says that there are 200 million guns, that means that the .8% of guns that are in the possession of people who shouldn't own a weapon, then there are 400,000 dangerous weapons situations in our country.

Doesn't it make sense to take the high-powered semi-automatic weapons out of the equation, the guns that can kill 26 people in three minutes and fire off an additional 100 rounds during those three minutes?


"high powered semi auto weapons" are used in less than 2% of all gun crimes. By your reasoning, we SHOULD be banning all handguns, and leaving "assault" weapons alone because statistically it is handguns that cause the most deaths.

Let me share something that my DH posted on his FB page. It gives another perspective:


the single most used competition rifle in the US is the AR-15. Each year thousands of responsible gun owners, shooters, and serious riflemen and their children go to Camp Perry OH.

Camp Perry is a National Guard base where the National Rifle and Pistol Matches are held, it has been a continuous affair from 1906 until now. It is supported by the CMP a government chartered non profit to teach marksmanship to youth. The Rifles involved are classified as service rifles, the type used by the military, modified to be semi automatic only, not automatic.

The AR is favored for its ease of handling and light weight and recoil, all of which make it the perfect platform to introduce younger shooters to the sport of competitive marksmanship.

Did you know that Rifle shooting is one of the only sports where men and women compete on a level playing field in college and international competition? There is no womens class and mens class, its all one class, many young ladies get to go to college on scholarships to get a good education they could otherwise not afford, just because they can shoot a rifle well.


The CMP was actually started under Teddy Roosevelt (not one of my favorite presidents, FTR) because he saw that our citizenry was becoming less and less armed, and that disturbed him. He believed that every citizen should be familiar with guns at the least, and proficient with them preferably. Despite the fact that he ushered in the Progressive/tyrannical era that would culminate in todays anti-gun, anti-constitution crowd, Teddy believed as our founders did, that an armed citizenry was essential to the protection of our rights and freedoms.






"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.

dottyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 12/23/2012 10:54:06 AM

it not only serves as a "protective" element, but the officers get to know the kids in our community and the kids form a positive relationship with law enforcement from an early age. That serves a more preventative function in our community. The kids who are more "at risk" are already known by our officers and they can invest time working with them in a more positive and helpful environment before they grow up to break laws.


We have this. The local community police who the children are very familiar with as they cover the area where they live,visit schools on a regular basis to give drug/ substance awareness courses ( age appropriate),road safety in walking to and from school/crossing the road etc as well as safety instructions if the older ones are are using the roads to ride their bikes.
They also attend concerts/ presentations as a guest to share in the children's achievements etc. Some in the more deprived areas take the role of a sports instructor at youth clubs/ referee a football match etc. The role they play in these situation is as a friend and an advisor in the children's eyes rather than a necessary protector. They're not based on a school site though, they call as they are patrolling the community.

The community police do similar with the elderly people in the area they cover. They visit to check if they have any problems, advice on home security etc.



Katybee
PeaFixture

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Posted: 12/23/2012 11:26:13 AM

We have a gun readily available to us in our bedroom. Our kids can't get to it, but I trust my kids if I did wish to keep it on my nightstand. They have been taught from birth about guns. They are both good shots with both .22 pistols and rifles. They know absolutely not to touch a gun without their father present. But we keep it out of their reach anyway because of other kids that may come and go in our home. No other kids are even allowed in our room period, and they know this. At this point they are not allowed to have friends over when we aren't home. And the majority of gun owners that I know - and that's a lot- are just as responsible especially if they have kids. It should freak no one out at all, what others do in their own homes, in their own bedrooms, with their own private property.


We grew up with firearms in our home. My dad was an avid hunter and sportsman. He taught my brothers how to use guns and gun safety and all of that. I'm sure he felt as confident as you that nothing bad would ever happen.

One night, my parents and I were out in the next-door neighbor's yard having a BBQ. My older btother, who was 12 at the time, got out my dad's gun (which was put away, but not locked up--because my dad was confident that my brother would never touch a gun without him present) and accidently fired it. The bullet missed my younger brother (who was 8) by just a few feet. The bullet went through the living room wall into the back of the stove in the kitchen. You could see the outline of the bullet right next to the burner controls...a constant reminder of just how lucky my family was.

My older brother had to go to therapy for a LONG time he was so shaken up. He still has nightmares today that he killed my younger brother.

So I know you THINK you've got it all under control...but kids are unpredictable...I will pray that nothing bad ever happens to your family.



scrappinbetty
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Posted: 12/23/2012 11:50:10 AM
I greatly appreciate the post by sylvia71. But then, I am willing to read opposing viewpoints and to learn as much as possible before making up my mind about something, especially something as serious as this issue. Unfortunately, IMHO there are very few people in this country willing to do the work to educate themselves about issues, and most only listen to the opinions of those who think exactly like they do. This is why our country has become so divided. We need to educate ourselves so the government and the media can't just shove their agendas down our throats.

This gun issue is not a simple problem and simple solutions won't work.

Prohibition does not work. This was proven when our country outlawed alcohol. All that did was help to create an effective, well-organized system of crime (bootlegging, crime families/gangs, etc.).

I am not pro-gun or anti-gun. Americans have a constitutional right to bear arms, and until that changes, I am not going to tell gun owners they can't own a weapon. But, that does not mean I am pro-gun. If that right were up for debate and to be potentially changed, I would want to learn as much as possible so I could vote on it as an educated citizen. I believe most Americans won't take the time to learn the pros and cns of this change, they will simply vote with "their side." Again, this is very sad.

As for there being armed personnel in schools, I can't say I am against it, but I think, again, it's not a simple solution to a complex issue. Given that teachers in CT were willing to die to protect their students, I do believe that they would have been willing to shoot the shooter had they been able to have a weapon. But, we'll never know if that would have been the case.

Again, this is not a simple issue. It will require a lot more than a knee-jerk reaction at a time when we are all emotionally raw from this horrific incident. I hope our politicians take the time to think things through rather than just "doing something."


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scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 12/23/2012 11:53:27 AM

But then, I am willing to read opposing viewpoints and to learn as much as possible before making up my mind about something, especially something as serious as this issue


Just need to say since it seems some are missing my follow up post. I did go back and read that long blog post. It didn't change my mind, but I did read it.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 12/23/2012 11:54:06 AM

I'm waiting to read the counters to Sylvia's excellent article, which was full of specific historical facts.

Batya?



After last week and the calls for me to reevaluate my posting style and the upset with which I ended up after engaging so much on these posts, I decide not to be so heavily involved on the gun control threads, if you have noticed.

I'd rather put my energy into advocacy offline and have been searching for ways to better educate myself on guns, usage, control options and advocacy opportunities.

I just wanted to raise the point that the calls for more police cost money which no one raised. Not everyone wants their taxes to go up or to be rebudgeted for this when it does not appear to be the solution.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




look4angel
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:14:07 PM

I guess I don't understand the argument that we should let the criminals have guns and focus on disarming law abiding citizens. I don't think it's a topic for a different thread... on some level I think that is the topic of this thread. As a law abiding supporter of gun rights I don't agree with the position that I should be punished for other people's crimes.

The problem with this quote and all the other quotes on here talking about "responsible gun owners", is that we are supposed to believe that all gun owners are supposedly "responsible", UNTIL their gun, is used to kill someone, then it's too late.

Whether it's because they suddenly had a jealous fit, and killed their boyfriend/girlfriend, they became mentally unbalanced, their son or daughter "found" their unlocked gun and shot a playmate, or used it in their new gang initiation, or they became desperate and used the gun in a robbery, etc.. etc.. until then we are expected to believe that ALL gun owners are responsible, which they are not.

So if it takes new laws to force people to become responsible gun owners, or they lose their guns or go to jail because they were not responsible with their weapon, then so be it. I can live with that, what I can't live with is the current situation which is to bury my head in the sand and pretend that guns and their owners are not responsible for 1000's of deaths a year, (almost 9000 deaths in 2011 alone) plus many more injuries.


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