"BSA executives kill approval of gay Scout's Eagle application, smear teen"

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Posted 1/10/2013 by scrappower in NSBR Board
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freecharlie
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:43:47 PM
Both of my children were in scouts for a couple of years. I knew of the stance on gays and thought that I had made a choice for my boys to be part of something.

Luckily both decided that sports were more important so they dropped scouts.

Now my best friend is gay. He wasn't out as a child, but knew he was different than others.

I won't be supporting BSA in the future just as I haven't been to a Chick fil A since the news came out.


Tribbey: I believe, as long as Justice Dreifort is intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, women, poor people, and the first, fourth, fifth, and ninth amendments, I will remain intolerant toward him! [to Ainsley] Nice meeting you

Constance
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:45:41 PM

BSA used to be supported by United Way and other funding sources but they pulled funding because of the discrimination policies.

This is not true.

In Kansas City, home of the largest Boy Scout council in the country (we've got some deep, deep boy scout traditions in this area -- adults still recognize each other by their Mic-O-Say names), the United Way gives the scouts something like $1 million a year. I quit donating to United Way because of that.

I have had local leaders tell me change will come from within. I say bullish!t. This latest decision does not come as a shock to me at all. What it is is just further proof that the national leaders of the Boy Scouts are never going to change. Unfortunately, it will ultimately be the death of what is otherwise a great program. Shame on them.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:47:03 PM

Is there more to the part of the story about him not fulfilling the religious aspect of the Eagle requirements? If he did not fulfill those obligations then he has not met the requirements for Eagle scout.


Considering his troop and the Eagle Board of Review both said he met the requirements, I tend to believe them over the unelected national board that has never ruled on Eagle requirements before.



AngelKriC
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:48:33 PM
I'd like to say that I am shocked, but sadly I am not. This is why our family does not support BSA through their fundraising and why I had to explain to my 7 year old why he could not join the BSA when the school was pushing it. He, sort of, understood and forgot about it later, but who knows who he's going to be when he grows up and I'd hate for him to work so hard only to have it taken away from him


Krissy

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lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 1/10/2013 10:39:35 PM
It's really sad what happened .
We do not support the BSA in any way.
Maybe things will change, but this move seems really "untrustworthy "

nighthawk
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Posted: 1/11/2013 1:07:11 AM
My family was involved in scouting for a long time. My dad is a leader and my brother was in scouts and got his Eagle.

I'm so sad about what scouts has become. I'm glad I have girls so I don't have to say sorry you can't be in Boy Scouts.


nighthawk
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Posted: 1/11/2013 1:12:03 AM
And what's even more ridiculousness is that European scouts do not have the same policies. There is someone in the US who is trying to start a new boy scout organization but from what I remember he was getting pushback from BSA in creating a competing organization.

Which is so funny because in Germany there are 4 national scouting organization, protestant scouts, national scouts (non-deominational), and catholic scouts

TinCin
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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:14:24 AM

My son didn't "grow up" to be gay, even though we don't know these things then he has been gay since he was born



you have some medical proof of that?



so much for those of you who spout acceptance and tolerance of others - but DON'T tolerate the beliefs of others.



. you don't believe in God, fine - then stay away from things that revolve around Him - like the BS and marriage.


Sky bar maybe your god has an issue with homosexuals but mine doesn't.


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MerryMom937
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:16:48 AM
Contrary to what the OP posted, some of the information in the report is not accurate.

"A gay California Boy Scout's application for Eagle rank was rejected by a Scout council, an official with the organization said Tuesday.

John Fenoglio, Scout executive for the Mount Diablo-Silverado Boy Scout Council, said the Eagle rank application from Ryan Andresen of Moraga, California, wasn't approved because of "membership standards," specifically "duty to God, avowed homosexuality, and the fact that he is now over 18 years of age."

Contrary to some media accounts, Andresen's application wasn't approved by the local council in Contra Costa County, nor was it submitted to the Boy Scouts' national office, Fenoglio told CNN.

In his Eagle Scout application process, Ryan Andresen was recently interviewed by a Scout review board that included Bonnie Hazarabedian, the volunteer district advancement chairwoman.

That board approved Ryan Andresen's application, which then forwarded it to the Mount Diablo-Silverado Boy Scout Council for review, Hazarabedian said.

When Hazarabedian passed along the application to Fenoglio, he indicated to her that Andresen's Eagle Scout application would be approved and sent to the national council for final approval, Hazarabedian said in a statement.

"The Eagle application was forwarded, by a volunteer, to the local council but it was not approved because this young man proactively stated that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet Scouting's membership requirements," Smith said. "Therefore, he is not eligible to receive the rank of Eagle."



BSA is a private organization.

As such, they have the right to set their own policies.

BSA has made it clear and one of their policies is about their stance on approving applications for gay or atheist youth and volunteers.

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.

BTW, ultimately the council BSA has governing authority over applications to join and for rank advancement (that includes Eagle Scout). That is after the board of review has convened.

And it appears that Ryan was over the age of 18 when he had his board of review. Without an approved extension request prior to his 18th birthday, no Eagle. period.

pyccku
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:26:07 AM

As such, they have the right to set their own policies.

BSA has made it clear and one of their policies is about their stance on approving applications for gay or atheist youth and volunteers.

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.


Which is why the whole 'change from within' is not likely to work in this case.

The BSA has made it clear that even if the local scout leaders are decent people who do not discriminate, the people at the top still are and will continue to discriminate against gays and atheists.

To get the people at the top to change would require that either the 'top' gets completely overthrown and replaced with new people, or waiting a really long time for the non-bigoted kids to grow up and take their place. I don't see the first one happening any time soon and the second one would take years for it to 'trickle up.'

Which is why the BSA do not get my support in any way. No popcorn sales, no jamboree ticket sales, nothing. I do support the Girl Scouts, who somehow manage to raise girls to be good people without feeling threatened by homosexuals or atheists.

GrinningCat
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:27:54 AM
It's sad to see that an organization that can do so much good remain so stubborn and ignorant. They are signing their own death certificate.

Dalai Mama
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:29:58 AM

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.
Who said they were surprised? Disappointed, surely, but nobody here is surprised.


Jo Mama

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Sarah*H
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:07:32 AM

BSA is a private organization.

As such, they have the right to set their own policies.

BSA has made it clear and one of their policies is about their stance on approving applications for gay or atheist youth and volunteers.

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.

BTW, ultimately the council BSA has governing authority over applications to join and for rank advancement (that includes Eagle Scout). That is after the board of review has convened.

And it appears that Ryan was over the age of 18 when he had his board of review. Without an approved extension request prior to his 18th birthday, no Eagle. period.


P.S. People are still allowed to have opinions. People are still allowed to have opinions that disagree with yours and disagree with the BSA. And what you posted still leaves out critical pieces of information that were relevant to the situation and what happened.

- Signed a mom of a current Scout, daughter, sister and cousin to Eagle Scouts, Woodbadge Course Leaders and former Philmont staffers, all of whom happen to think the BSA is dead wrong on this matter



IScrapCrap
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:12:09 AM
I'm not surprised about the decision. I do wonder when he submitted his application. It's my understanding once a young man is 18, he's too old to receive his eagle.

My ds is in scouts. I didn't look into their policies when he joined. It was something my family always did. My brother became an eagle scout at a young age. My dad received the Silver Beaver award in his late thirties. The organization honestly did turn my dad's life around for the better.

With that being said, I struggle with taking him out because of what I believe. I live in a rural, mostly LDS community. Scouting is huge. We are all ready "different" because we don't go to church. He mainly goes for the social aspect. I let him choose when he does and does not want to attend. He won't be going on a winter campout tonight and I'm fine with his decision.

Constance
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:52:15 AM

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.

Everybody knows what the BSA stance is, and that they have the legal right to discriminate.
Nobody is continually surprised by this.

What we are is continually saddened and angered by the organization's refusal to change from within. This is coming from people with strong, multi-generational attachments to an organization they love, but which is leaving them behind because of its refusal to eliminate their discriminatory policies.

So quit acting shocked that we are angered. And don't tell people they can't have an opinion about this, just because the BSA has legally fought to maintain their right to keep their heads in the sand.

batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 9:02:31 AM

Agree or not agree, their policy about homosexuality and atheism is clear and I don't know why people continually act surprised by their stance.


I don't know who these people are. They aren't on this thread. In fact, everyone here said this is what they expected and they find it sad, disappointing, disheartening, angering, whatever. Backing their reasons to NOT join or support the organization.

Maybe it makes some of you feel better to think we are caught off guard and surprised or not fully informed. I'm not sure why you aren't fully digesting the many posts that say we are all NOT shocked or surprised. It's the running theme of the thread, in fact.

We also said they have the right as a private org to discriminate. Which make no mistake, is exactly what they're doing. Have at it. We have the right to loudly protest and slam them for it. Our opinions are just that. We are allowed to hate their policies and say so anytime we choose to anyone we want.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




*~*amanda*~*
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Posted: 1/11/2013 9:29:27 AM
Thank you for posting more details, MerryMom.

I know the official stance on homosexuality but I do not believe for a moment that they would deny a rank advancement based solely on a sexual preference. I wont say it didn't factor into the decision but I highly doubt it was the only reason this boy was denied.

Assuming that he was over 18 (which makes him ineligible) and he refused to oblige by the religious requirements (which also makes him ineligible), I find it despicable that he/his family/peas/whoever are turning this into an issue of homosexuality and discrimination.

If he met all requirements and was denied advancement then by all means be upset.
He didn't do what he was supposed to do.
How in the world anyone can say he still deserves the advancement is beyond me.



scrappower
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Posted: 1/11/2013 9:39:13 AM
There is misinformation in the link Merrymom put down too. As long as the projects are done and submitted before he turns 18 it is okay. As for the rest I still stand by what I said. I see nothing proving his not doing "duty to god".



batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:08:50 AM

I know the official stance on homosexuality but I do not believe for a moment that they would deny a rank advancement based solely on a sexual preference. I wont say it didn't factor into the decision but I highly doubt it was the only reason this boy was denied.


Why? It's their policy. They have been very vocal in repeated cases about it being their policy and about following their policy and admitting that it is the full and only reason for rejection of Eagle Rank being given or about releasing volunteers from positions. Why do you find it hard to believe they follow their policy? Especially when National admits it?


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Compwalla
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:21:18 AM
United Way has pulled BSA funding in a lot of places. United Way councils operate on their own and BSA lost funding in many areas because if the anti gay policy.


Virginia

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TheOtherMeg
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:26:20 AM

Pretty much the result I expected and why I support groups that are inclusive and not exclusive. Also why I never allowed my DS to join (even if he did show an interest). What if he grew up and realized he's gay? And worked hard and was treated like this? No thanks. I'd rather he make an investment somewhere he is valued. This is deplorable but they have the right to do it.

ITA, and I have no problem gently explaining to my boys, who come home at the start of the school year with paperwork about Boy Scouts and are all charged up due to the "join the Boy Scouts" assembly, that in our family we don't support groups that discriminate against men who love men and/or women who love women. We're all for love around here. When explained that simply, the boys totally "get it" and are immediately and completely disinterested in joining BSA.

While I'm not at all surprised at this latest event regarding the BSA and its anti-homosexuality stance, I'm still disheartened by it.



You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists. ~Abbie Hoffman




~Lauren~
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:34:51 AM
Perhaps "shocked" is the wrong word.

People are, of course, free to express their disappointment and even their outrage. My point is that the BSA has always held to their stand on homosexuality. It hasn't varied. Yet it seems that at least once or twice a year someone posts a thread to the effect "oh my God, the BSA have denied a gay man/boy ________________" and everyone claims how much they'll never be a part of the boy Scouts.

The issue isn't whether anyone has a "right" to post their criticsm. You can post what you want. It's just seems to some of us to be old hat. The BSA are who they are. I don't agree with their position but I don't waste my time being outraged about it. It's their private organization and their rules. My kid wasn't interested in joining and honestly, if he was, I doubt this would have been a reason to forbid it. They don't advocate violence or destruction of property (unlike the KKK or Young Nazis). Therefore, I have no problem with them having their own beliefs and rules.



But I do know how the Peas love righteous indignation, so carry on.





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~Lauren~
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:37:39 AM

United Way has pulled BSA funding in a lot of places. United Way councils operate on their own and BSA lost funding in many areas because if the anti gay policy.


And this just shows me that they feel strongly about this issue; they, unlike so many other groups, are willing to put their money where their mouth is. Despite losing this funding, they still maintain their policies and beliefs. People may not agree with those beliefs, but apparently, they don't care.





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:40:55 AM
That's rich. When United Way does it they are taking a stand but when people here do, it's righteous indignation? It's the same thing. Either we are both taking a stand and putting our money where our mouths are by not supporting something we don't believe in or alternately supporting it OR it's righteous indignation on both parts.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




**Angie**
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:42:21 AM
A pp said something about change from within - that the kids today will hopefully grow up to not be bigots. I think that's one of the reasons why people should allow their kids to join and teach them that bigotry is wrong - to be that change.

And, whose to say that in 5-10 years, when today's new scouts are looking toward Eagle status, the rules won't already be changed? We've been involved with scouts for three years, we've never heard anyone ask about someone's sexuality and our Den Leader gives out the names of other non-religious members to give you pointers about the "duty to God" parts...





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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:44:49 AM
No, it's not the same thing. They are not expressing indignation about anything; including public opinion. They are going about their business just as they always have. They are not asking anyone's approval and are not squawking when they lose funding. The BSA, that is.

The United Way is withdrawing their funding. Is that righteous indignation? Shrug...could be, but it's not something that comes up over and over again.

I don't see where it's the same at all.






Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:46:06 AM
Oh, but you're wrong. It is EXACTLY the same thing. It is speaking with your wallet. And making your values known. No one is squawking here but you.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




~Lauren~
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Posted: 1/11/2013 10:46:49 AM
Shrug..ok. FWIW, I didn't say anyone here was squawking. And I didn't say the United Way was squawking. I said the BS didn't squawk when they lost their funding.

It looks like this is gearing up to personal insults, so I'm done with this thread.

Have a good day, Batya.





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

mdoc
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Posted: 1/11/2013 2:52:50 PM
That stinks. I love Boy Scout popcorn, and now I won't be buying it. I simply can't support that organization.

smilesnpeacesigns
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Posted: 1/11/2013 4:28:14 PM
Well it is sad this young man did not win his fight some one will one day. I admire his fight, it takes courage to say "wait this is wrong."

I was hoping he would have a place next to Rosa Parks,Elizabeth Stanton, and Ryan White.

I do have to say though I'm glad to be in America where people have the right to say I don't believe in this with out having to worry about going to prison or death because they do.


Even with the snark, trolls and spelling police you are a great group of ladies!

busypea
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Posted: 1/11/2013 4:45:45 PM

And, whose to say that in 5-10 years, when today's new scouts are looking toward Eagle status, the rules won't already be changed?

But who's to say they will be changed? How would you feel if your son invested 10+ years in scouting - and started before he was probably cognizant of being gay - and did all the work to achieve that honor and then was denied it because he was gay?

batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 4:51:06 PM

But who's to say they will be changed? How would you feel if your son invested 10+ years in scouting - and started before he was probably cognizant of being gay - and did all the work to achieve that honor and then was denied it because he was gay?


That's my philosophy. I didn't want to set up my son for the possibility of being rejected by a group b/c of who he is or that he should lie about it or have to hide it. Each choice worse than the other. Why not go to a positive inclusive group where it isn't an issue? No need to give your best to a group that doesn't potentially want you. He is now 15, not gay, was a founding member of his middle school's Pride group to make others feel accepted (I had no part in this--I didn't find out til after he was involved b/c sons don't always share what they're doing at school) and is now active in the HS Gay Straight Alliance. So proud of him. And thankful he is not stuck in an organization that discriminates, even if it isn't on the local level.

ETA: The middle school Pride group (DD is now at the middle school) is the one spearheading the anti-bullying prerogative this month regarding all students, not just LGBT community. A curriculum is being brought to all classes and it is student-led.

There are organizations that are not the BSA where our kids can have wonderful experiences teaching them values. The ones we want them to have. Youth group at our synagogue doesn't care who you love. DS found a home there, has taken on leadership positions, and we don't have to worry that anything will be stripped from him. People don't have to beg the BSA to accept them and hope there will be a change (unless it's the only game in town). Find somewhere else to take your sons. Somewhere they can be accepted for who they are.



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




*~*amanda*~*
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Posted: 1/11/2013 4:56:10 PM
So we shouldn't let our kids be involved in something because there is a chance that later in life they might be excluded from that group?

Do you not let your kids have friends because there is a chance that those friends could turn on them and move on to other friends?

Heck, better not let them go to college...my word, what if they don't get an A on a paper!



Dalai Mama
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Posted: 1/11/2013 4:59:00 PM

So we shouldn't let our kids be involved in something because there is a chance that later in life they might be excluded from that group?
No, I don't keep my kids from being involved in activities that might exclude them in the future based on something they have no control over. I keep my kids from being involved in activities that might exclude anyone based on something they have no control over.


Jo Mama

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busypea
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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:01:47 PM


No, I am not going to allow my son to participate in a group that WILL exclude him if he were to grow up gay. And that a gay friend would be forbidden from joining. And that his gay uncle could not volunteer with.

He can do equivalent activities in an organization that does not practice discrimination.

And seriously, are you f'ing kidding with this comparison?

Heck, better not let them go to college...my word, what if they don't get an A on a paper!

Asinine.

batya
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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:07:16 PM
amanda, you seem to not understand. I will not support a discriminatory group whose values negatively impact the children and families they profess to improve. They are deplorable and I will not give them my money, my time, my energy or my son.

They are hypocritical in that they claim to require the participants to be 'morally straight' and hence gays are excluded but are not booting out every adulterous man, nor are they poking into the backgrounds of their volunteers for this information. And adultery, amanda, is in the top ten, if you know Exodus and Deuteronomy. Gays don't even crack the list. Let's also talk about the sodomy issue and the molestation that was covered up by the BSA. How do you feel about that? The hypocrisy disgusts me. So while on the local level there may be some good things happening, I will not support them b/c it all comes back to the greater organization on a National level.

I think you can find organizations you feel similarly about. You would not support them nor let your children be involved. As you should not.

If I KNOW that my son will be DISCRIMINATED against for who he is, not 'hurt by a friend' then I will be damn sure to keep him out of that environment. Just like I would not join a group that I know doesn't like Jews.

What if there was a group you know doesn't like Christians. Would you subject your sons to that environment? And let them put their hearts into it, form relationships, rise up the ranks and then be told 10 years later, no, sorry. You aren't good enough. You're Christian? When you KNEW going into it that there was a possibility they would discriminate against your son b/c of *who he is?* Is that really the same as a fight with a friend? Or not succeeding b/c you didn't try hard enough? How can you try not to be Christian or try not to be gay? You are what you are. Maybe you see the distinction now.



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




*~*amanda*~*
...

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:08:09 PM

Heck, better not let them go to college...my word, what if they don't get an A on a paper!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Asinine.


No, asinine is the statement made above by more than one person stating they wont let their kids join an organization because maybe someday there is a small chance the kid will be excluded.

Not all homosexuals are excluded from scouting, anyway.
My ds' troop has an adult volunteer who is openly gay.
There is also a boy in his troop who I'm quite certain is gay as well, although nothing has ever been said about it.



busypea
boring + nerdy

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:10:24 PM
I you, batya.

I 100% agree, but this issue makes me so angry I can't even be coherent about it.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:12:08 PM

No, asinine is the statement made above by more than one person stating they wont let their kids join an organization because maybe someday there is a small chance the kid will be excluded.


You are missing the point entirely.



busypea
boring + nerdy

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:13:51 PM

No, asinine is the statement made above by more than one person stating they wont let their kids join an organization because maybe someday there is a small chance the kid will be excluded.

You are missing the point.

Those of us who feel strongly about this and would not let our child join aren't doing that to protect our precious snowflakes from some possible future disappointment and pain.

Rather, we refuse to support with our actions, time or money an organization that actively and openly discriminates against people simply because of their sexual orientation.

I WILL NOT EVER allow my minor son to participate in an organization that does that, any more than I would allow my son to participate in organization that excluded members based on race.

It fundamentally goes against the core values with which we are raising our son.

But what the hell - throw values out the window because camp is really fun!

batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:15:08 PM
You don't understand the difference between not being successful b/c you don't put in effort and being discriminated against b/c of who you are (black, gay, female)? Do you really not see the distinction?

Just b/c someone is not excluded on the local level does not mean it is not policy of national BSA. When you apply for Eagle you will be rejected. When it MATTERS. What do you have to say about that? It has been consistent every time and National has been clear that it is b/c of the homosexulity of the applicant. You still haven't commented on the fact that it IS b/c the boy was gay each time and National BSA has admitted this. It is discriminatory. That is their right. But it is happening and you want to deny it, liken it to someone not trying hard...

What's asinine is not knowing the difference between laziness and discrimination.

We don't want to support them. Not only b/c our children can be excluded, but like Dalai said so perfectly, b/c ANYONE can be excluded!!! I shunned BSA before I even HAD a son! Geez.

Busy, I am fuming. It's disgusting.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




*~*amanda*~*
...

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:15:39 PM

amanda, you seem to not understand. I will not support a discriminatory group whose values negatively impact the children and families they profess to improve. They are deplorable and I will not give them my money, my time, my energy or my son.



I do understand.
I happen to disagree with you, but I do understand.

I am stating my opinion just as you are stating yours. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't expect anything I say to change your mind.

That doesn't mean I don't understand why you feel the way you feel, though.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:21:37 PM
But you're saying it's asinine to have values, then.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




Dalai Mama
La Pea Boheme

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:24:59 PM
When you compare not allowing children to join BSA and not allowing them to have friends or go to college it's not a huge leap to say that you don't understand.


Jo Mama

***********************************

Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn

The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams


scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:34:57 PM

amanda, you seem to not understand. I will not support a discriminatory group whose values negatively impact the children and families they profess to improve. They are deplorable and I will not give them my money, my time, my energy or my son.


I do understand.
I happen to disagree with you, but I do understand.

I am stating my opinion just as you are stating yours. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't expect anything I say to change your mind.

That doesn't mean I don't understand why you feel the way you feel, though.


No you really aren't getting it. Your comparisons show that clearly.



IleneTell
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:41:05 PM

No, I don't keep my kids from being involved in activities that might exclude them in the future based on something they have no control over. I keep my kids from being involved in activities that might exclude anyone based on something they have no control over


Exactly. My son, and my whole family, will have nothing to do with them becuase I have no respect for their discirmanatroy policies and have no interest in supporting them. That my son might turn out to be gay and be excluded is a minor part of the issue. How they treat others is what makes me not want to be associated with them in any way.



*~*amanda*~*
...

PeaNut 393,905
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Posted: 1/11/2013 5:41:37 PM

But it is happening and you want to deny it,


I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against homosexuality.
I questioned if there are other reasons why the boy was denied his Eagle rank.

I do understand why people choose not to support BSA, and I don't think its necessarily wrong of you (them).

You would probably be surprised to know that if this boy was denied Eagle rank based solely on the fact that he is gay then I think that is wrong.

However, I think its ridiculous for him or his family to be upset about it if that is the case. They knew going into it this was a possibility. The BSA doesn't try to hide that.

I do understand why you and others are upset, Batya.
I disagree with you, but I do understand it.



kfad
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:10:04 PM
"taking a stand against homosexuality"

Your wording shows quite clearly you do not understand the larger implications.



http://kfadich.blogspot.com

Great people talk about ideas; ordinary people talk about things; small-minded people talk about other people.
-- unknown
I choose greatness.

IleneTell
StuckOnPeas

PeaNut 434,842
August 2009
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:14:47 PM

My son is gay and got the shit beat out of him and could have died after being attacked from behind and ended up in the hosptial and having an operation to repair his severely broken collarbone on Easter Sunday. Simply because he had the "nerve" to hold hands with his partner in public.


I'm so sorry to hear that happened to him I really hate people sometimes.



batya
Making the WWW better, one post at a time.

PeaNut 59,094
December 2002
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:24:08 PM

I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against homosexuality.


Let's try this some other ways and see how it sounds. Despicable, right? Why would an organization take a stand against anyone? Why would we want to promote values of exclusion? And why would you disagree with people standing up against those exclusionary practices by keeping their family away from the discriminatory group? If it played out like this, would you be complacent?

I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against blacks.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against Jews.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against Christians.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against the disabled.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against the Amish.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against the poor.
I have not denied once that BSA takes a stand against atheists. Oh. Wait...


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.



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