S/O - are you in favor of gun regulation, no regulation or outright banning.
Post ReplyPost New TopicPosted 1/22/2013 by ~Lauren~ in NSBR Board
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obliolait
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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:07:12 AM
there should be strict storage regulations i.e., in a safe. I don't suggest that homes should be inspected, but the owner should be culpable if their gun is stolen and used in a crime. This goes for transporting the gun as well - it should be in a locked box in the trunk of the car. No one should be permitted to carry a concealed or visible firearm within a town or city's limits. There should also be a registry of firearms to which the police are privy. The background check for sale of guns should not happen at the point of purchase, but during a stringent licensing process. Some kind of biometric identification should be used a the point of purchase. Gun shows should be outlawed.

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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:29:46 AM

I can say I know of one person that owns handguns.
I did know one person who had a handgun. He was a police detective here in Toronto. Now that he's retired, he's back to being gunless.


Yeah, the dude I know is definitely not a cop. Incidentally, he did make a post about gun control on Facebook this morning. Go figure.

So, I guess my article I posted regarding guns in Canada begs the question, "if there are that many guns in Canada (some figure 20 million), along with some of the same arguments put forward by pro-gun advocates in the US, why are our gun deaths and accidents significantly lower?

Is the key that we are not able to carry concealed? Is it a mindset we have? What is it?


Well Peas, I believe this thread has gone Thrusday.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:33:43 AM
Beans, it might have something to do with the types of guns that are owned here? IDK.


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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:44:42 AM

It's NICS - National Instant Criminal Background Check System under the FBI.


D'oh! I can't believe I did that. Yes, I know exactly what it is. I just reversed the letters, but thank you for correcting it. I don't want people to have the wrong info!



OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




WillowJane
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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:49:01 AM
    So, I guess my article I posted regarding guns in Canada begs the question, "if there are that many guns in Canada (some figure 20 million), along with some of the same arguments put forward by pro-gun advocates in the US, why are our gun deaths and accidents significantly lower?

    Is the key that we are not able to carry concealed? Is it a mindset we have? What is it?


I believe one thing that has to be considered - and forgive me if I word this wrong - but Canada "subsidizes" their drug users. I'm not sure about the UK and Australia. I remember a piece on 60 Minutes a few years back where they interviewed members of Canada's government and those on the streets about the situation. Also, some stats I read a few weeks back indicate that the UK and Canada have a much higher population of drug abusers than the US. I'll see if I can find them.

Many of the violent crimes in the US are drug related. If the drug user's addiction is being satisfied, the need to find a fix - anyway, anyhow - is minimized.

Here is an article from Macleans.CA. I don't know how reliable of a source they are but it does paint a background picture of how the US and Canada differ on approaching at least drug addictions.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/10/07/are-we-ready-to-subsidize-heroin/

scrappower
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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:49:09 AM
Nightowl I was responding to this post:


Posted: 1/22/2013 5:32:14 PM
I still want to know how all the laws you all can think of will deter a felon from walking into a gun shop, picking out a gun, leaving without purchasing it, and then calling his girlfriend with no criminal record/can pass a background check with flying colors to go buy the gun alone.

And then turn it over to him once purchased.




Which ford seem to be for not doing anything because it doesn't stop ppl. She posted that other post later. Do I need to constantly follow up to make sure that a person posts more info later? And I have yet to see anyone here for an outright ban.



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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:06:09 AM
Here is my non-American viewpoint.

In Canada, you have to complete a hunter training course before you can get a firearms aquisition certificate (FAC). So if you can pull of normal through the course and you do not have a criminal record you can obtain a firearm. This can be a long gun (non restricted) or a handgun (restricted) but not an assault rifle. So even with our laws you can still be mentally unstable and get a gun.

Violent games, violent movies and street drugs are no different in the rest of the world so I don't think these are to blame for the gun violence.

I believe gun violence or whatever you want to call it is a cultural issue. Americans are passionate people. Look at the festivities around signing your president in. In Canada we don't have this, it's just another day at work sort of thing. When Americans do something it's balls to the wall, go big or go home. Even here on 2Peas you can see how passionate Americans are about their opinions. In some cases I think non-Americans envy this passion., mostly the holidays. It isn't wrong. It can be intense but it isn't wrong. Unfortunately that passion can go in a negative way, especially if a person feels they need to be heard.




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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:14:18 AM

If the choice was between doing something, or huddling in a corner just waiting for the bullet in their heads, I'd rather they have some knowledge as to what they might me able to do to save their lives or the lives of their classmates.


Actually, I went to a presentation on security and safety training recently by a Homeland Security officer. He said that IF you are no longer able to hide and not just behind something but behind something solid, then this type of thing has to be taught b/c there is no way out when you are dealing with this type of a psyche. They will keep going until they are killed or caught so the kids have to learn how to fight or escape otherwise they are dead. It's the reality of these situations.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




expoedu1
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:46:19 AM
Interesting discussion. I wonder if it would be a lot different if we had a few guys on the board.

I did want to comment about this since it's come up before in other threads.


Living in Chicago with some of the toughest guns laws in the country and the highest murder rate- I don't think banning them will change anything.


I believe it was BTAF (Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol, and Firearms) that did an investigation to see where the guns were coming from that were being used in crimes in Chicago. Most could be traced to one of 5 gun stores in the US--one of them being in Indiana, where the rules for gun purchases are more relaxed. They've been unable to prove that these gun stores do anything illegal, but it's hard to believe that with so many ways to purchase guns in the US that there isn't some connection to the gun store operations and the use of them in crimes. The gun store in Indiana is in Indianapolis, and is not far from my home. I'm embarrassed to admit that now that the owner of the store is getting old (mostly retired from day-to-day operation) maybe there will be a day when the store is no longer in operation. I wish the owner were forced to live a few blocks from his store to appreciate the consequences of his business practices. (He lives about 20 miles away in a multi-million $$ house.) Our laws are so loose that he is allowed to RENT guns to people.

Also, another source of guns in Chicago is through Gary, Indiana, and other places just across the state line. Chicago can be as strict as it wants to be, but as long as Indiana has very little control over gun purchases, there will be an easy way for guns to find their way to the city.

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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:47:38 AM
I don't see a need for a ban. People enjoy hunting, target practice, skeet shooting, and gun smithing as hobbies.

I don't see the need for a regular person to own or have access to weapons like an AK-47 or whatever.



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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:49:46 AM

Also, another source of guns in Chicago is through Gary, Indiana, and other places just across the state line. Chicago can be as strict as it wants to be, but as long as Indiana has very little control over gun purchases, there will be an easy way for guns to find their way to the city.
Exactly why Chicago isn't a great example of why gun control wouldn't work. Getting a gun into Chicago is as easy as walking across the city limits.


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Epeanymous
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:53:02 AM
I am in favor of strict regulation and personally do not care for guns or have any desire to own one or see much reason for most people to own one (and I grew up in a household with guns).

I don't think even strict regulation will help now, however. There are too many guns out there already. We'd need a time machine.

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Posted: 1/23/2013 12:26:31 PM

I guess my article I posted regarding guns in Canada begs the question, "if there are that many guns in Canada (some figure 20 million), along with some of the same arguments put forward by pro-gun advocates in the US, why are our gun deaths and accidents significantly lower?
Because Canada and America are not the same place.

We have very different histories, we have very different cultures, we have very different subcultures, we are different peoples in different countries.

I am just guessing but I would imagine that the rates of gun deaths in North Dakota and Montana would be much closer to those in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Perhaps the rates would be closer in Washington State and British Columbia and Alaska and the Yukon Territory. The thing is... Canada doesn't have anything like Florida or California or Texas. Or cities like Chicago or Washington DC (which are where the serious numbers of gun deaths occur).

It seems easy to compare our nations but they are very, very different.




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obliolait
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Posted: 1/23/2013 1:34:08 PM
Mapchic, that is such intellectual laziness. Culture is dynamic and histories are interwoven and relative. One can make the exact same argument about comparing states or even cities. It is absolutely possible and necessary to compare social issues across nations. You should take a course on research methods. yeesh.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=gun+crime+comparison+canada+and+united+states&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

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Posted: 1/23/2013 1:46:05 PM

Beans, it might have something to do with the types of guns that are owned here? IDK.


Bah. Who knows. Maybe pynke is right and it's cultural. I really have no answers. The article did make me think.


Well Peas, I believe this thread has gone Thrusday.
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Dalai Mama
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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:59:04 PM

Many of the violent crimes in the US are drug related. If the drug user's addiction is being satisfied, the need to find a fix - anyway, anyhow - is minimized.

Here is an article from Macleans.CA. I don't know how reliable of a source they are but it does paint a background picture of how the US and Canada differ on approaching at least drug addictions.
Very reliable, but it doesn't say that Canada subsidizes drug use. What's provided for addicts (and even that typically comes through charity) are safe injection sites and clean needles. Addicts still have to buy their own drugs.

In Canada, though, drug addiction tends to lead to more property crime rather than violent crime.


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mishkismom
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:27:56 PM

Kristen, should it be anymore of a pain in the ass than owning a car?

I've long thought they should both be hard. Why are drivers ordered to retest occasionally? My Mom owns a car and just had her license renewed last year. She had a stroke and has vascular dementia not to mention horribly slow reaction times and glaucoma!
She obviously doesn't drive but still.. she could if she had possession of the keys.

Guns should be about the same. If someone buys a gun and has no mental disorders on record and has a mental issue later down the road what would happen? (I really don't know so that is a real question -not snark.)


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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:38:48 PM

I am just guessing but I would imagine that the rates of gun deaths in North Dakota and Montana would be much closer to those in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Perhaps the rates would be closer in Washington State and British Columbia and Alaska and the Yukon Territory. The thing is... Canada doesn't have anything like Florida or California or Texas. Or cities like Chicago or Washington DC (which are where the serious numbers of gun deaths occur).

It seems easy to compare our nations but they are very, very different.


So are you suggesting that it may have to do with population density? Because if that is the case, maybe it is time to consider revisiting conceal and carry, particularly in densely populated areas.

And I agree with Lynlam (I do that sometimes), maybe they need a heavier hand on gun crime sentencing, and criminally punishing irresponsible gun ownership.


Well Peas, I believe this thread has gone Thrusday.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 7:23:55 PM
"there should be strict storage regulations i.e., in a safe. I don't suggest that homes should be inspected, but the owner should be culpable if their gun is stolen and used in a crime"
-----------

This bugs the shit outta me. You know what my obligation to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals is? Lock my doors and windows. Period. My home is my home and no one is allowed inside without my permission. If a criminals breaks in when I am not at home, he is the one at fault, not me! If he steals my car out of the drive and then uses it in a bank robbery, or drives drunk and kills someone, am I at fault too? Should I be sent to jail too? Hell no! And the same goes for guns.





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lynlam
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Posted: 1/23/2013 7:31:11 PM
"I think you bring up a good point. "
----------

Thanks for responding to that nightowl. Your response was very thoughtful and I agree with you totally.

I would still like to hear from the peas who think kids that age should be taught all about having safe sex, but not about how to react in a life threatening situation.





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maddiesmum
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Posted: 1/23/2013 8:04:41 PM

This bugs the shit outta me. You know what my obligation to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals is? Lock my doors and windows. Period. My home is my home and no one is allowed inside without my permission. If a criminals breaks in when I am not at home, he is the one at fault, not me! If he steals my car out of the drive and then uses it in a bank robbery, or drives drunk and kills someone, am I at fault too? Should I be sent to jail too? Hell no! And the same goes for guns.


I guess that means the guns in your house are unsecured and loaded. Don't you love your kids enough to protect them?

And your guns = cars analogy is ludicrous and idiotic. As are you.

Tserenity
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Posted: 1/23/2013 9:29:00 PM
No, I am not in favor of any additional gun regulations.


This bugs the shit outta me. You know what my obligation to keep my guns out of the hands of criminals is? Lock my doors and windows. Period. My home is my home and no one is allowed inside without my permission. If a criminals breaks in when I am not at home, he is the one at fault, not me! If he steals my car out of the drive and then uses it in a bank robbery, or drives drunk and kills someone, am I at fault too? Should I be sent to jail too? Hell no! And the same goes for guns.


I agree completely.

desertpea
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Posted: 1/24/2013 1:10:51 PM

Which ford seem to be for not doing anything because it doesn't stop ppl. She posted that other post later. Do I need to constantly follow up to make sure that a person posts more info later? And I have yet to see anyone here for an outright ban.


Because I was making a point: criminals and the mentally ill have ready access to guns. The Newtown shooter killed his mother and stole her guns (and none of which were "assault weapons".

If you fail a background check, then NOTHING HAPPENS. You failed. You don't get the gun. No law enforcement contacted. No district attorney contacted. If any of that actually happened, then those kids wouldn't be dead.

And there is nothing stopping someone from passing a background check and turning the gun over to a parolee. They'll be arrested when that gun is used in a crime. No FFL, no nothing involved.

I want to know when someone is on or recently off Ritalin, Paxil, Zoloft, or any mind-altering drugs and fails a background check.

Anyone who thinks it is easy to legally get a gun of any type in this country is extremely ignorant. That is because of existing regulations, which I am fine with but not outright bans. I am pretty sure a good chunk of people posting in this thread wouldn't jump through all the hoops to get one.

Again, you are going to have to get used to the Heller decision by the SCOTUS just like the rest of us got used to Roe v. Wade.

And whoever asked why someone would "need" to legally purchase an AK-47, a M141, a Bushmaster, or a Steyr Aug: it's none of your business. It's not a "need" but a "want." Consider it the same way you don't "need" a Lexus but you "want" one. Because of this nonsense gun ban talk, the prices of these are skyrocketing so only the rich can afford them.

Krazyscrapper
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Posted: 1/24/2013 2:34:58 PM

Anyone who thinks it is easy to legally get a gun of any type in this country is extremely ignorant.


What you need to do to purchase a gun in Arizona

I don't know but it looks like its pretty easy to buy a gun in Arizona. Certainly easier than getting a license to drive a car. Just an observation on my part.

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Posted: 1/24/2013 2:38:32 PM

I don't see a need for a ban. People enjoy hunting, target practice, skeet shooting, and gun smithing as hobbies.

I don't see the need for a regular person to own or have access to weapons like an AK-47 or whatever.


The AR-15's are used for hunting, target practice, competitive sport shooting, etc. It really does add to the confusion of trying to separate one gun from another.




BTW, why'd that long thread get pulled?








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Posted: 1/24/2013 2:46:40 PM

I don't know but it looks like its pretty easy to buy a gun in Arizona. Certainly easier than getting a license to drive a car. Just an observation on my part.


Last time I got a drivers license I didn't have to go through a background check as is required in Arizona to purchase a firearm. I did have to take a test, but that was only once when I was 16. I haven't taken a test since then. Even when I transferred my license from DC to MD.

The only things missing on those requirements that have been suggested would be proficiency testing, mental health check of some kind and registration. We've been debating those requirements for a while and some pro-gun people are all for those additional requirements.

But I still wouldn't say it was "easy" to get a firearm. They even have a waiting period of at least 3 days while the background check is completed.

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Posted: 1/24/2013 2:50:04 PM

They even have a waiting period of at least 3 days while the background check is completed.
That's only if the application gets tagged as 'delay'. If tagged as 'proceed', there is no wait.


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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:01:43 PM

But I still wouldn't say it was "easy" to get a firearm. They even have a waiting period of at least 3 days while the background check is completed.



It is easy to get gun in Arizona as long as you have nothing to hide. Once you have that gun then nothing. I don't have to prove I know how to use a gun. If I understand what I'm reading in Arizona I don't even have to have a permit unless I carry it out and about.

With driving you have to prove you know how to drive a car and rules of the road. You have to have a license to drive a car and, at least in CA, you have to have proof of insurance before you can register the car.

So I think its pretty easy to get a gun in some states. And, from what I understand, its even easier to get a gun show or from a private dealer.


desertpea
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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:13:18 PM

I don't know but it looks like its pretty easy to buy a gun in Arizona. Certainly easier than getting a license to drive a car. Just an observation on my part.


You apparently didn't read what you linked. It is way easier to get and maintain a driver's license in Arizona than to get a gun legally:

7. "Prohibited possessor" means any person:

(a) Who has been found to constitute a danger to self or to others or to be persistently or acutely disabled or gravely disabled pursuant to court order under section 36-540, and whose right to possess a firearm has not been restored pursuant to section 13-925.

( Who has been convicted within or without this state of a felony or who has been adjudicated delinquent for a felony and whose civil right to possess or carry a gun or firearm has not been restored.

(c) Who is at the time of possession serving a term of imprisonment in any correctional or detention facility.

(d) Who is at the time of possession serving a term of probation pursuant to a conviction for a domestic violence offense as defined in section 13-3601 or a felony offense, parole, community supervision, work furlough, home arrest or release on any other basis or who is serving a term of probation or parole pursuant to the interstate compact under title 31, chapter 3, article 4.1.

(e) Who is an undocumented alien or a nonimmigrant alien traveling with or without documentation in this state for business or pleasure or who is studying in this state and who maintains a foreign residence abroad. This subdivision does not apply to:

(i) Nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit that is lawfully issued by a state in the United States.

(ii) Nonimmigrant aliens who enter the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show that is sponsored by a national, state or local firearms trade organization devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms.

(iii) Certain diplomats.

(iv) Officials of foreign governments or distinguished foreign visitors who are designated by the United States department of state.

(v) Persons who have received a waiver from the United States attorney general.



Which is why criminals obtain guns illegally. They completely bypass the regulations.

You should try reading what you linked, you should probably read your own state's regulations, and then explain why there are zero gun crimes in California.

--

I read a story today about how someone in DC shot a pit bull that was in the process of mauling/attacking a little boy, and that person that saved that little boy's life is going to probably be brought up on gun charges. I'm sure plenty of you can't wait to cheer that man's prison sentence.

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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:15:58 PM

the prices of these are skyrocketing so only the rich can afford them.


That's capitalism at work.


OK. Newbie. This is how it works. If your post consists of 80% sanity, 10% stupidity and 10% all kinds of crazy, we immediately focus on the 20% b/c it discredits the 80%.




desertpea
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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:20:22 PM

And your guns = cars analogy is ludicrous and idiotic. As are you.


She can pass and qualify for a CCW. For some reason, I don't expect you have the mental capacity to do so.


That's capitalism at work.


That isn't capitalism.

Krazyscrapper
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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:41:37 PM

You apparently didn't read what you linked. It is way easier to get and maintain a driver's license in Arizona than to get a gun legally:


Yes I read the Prohibited Possessor. Doesn't apply to me. I have nothing to hide so I can go buy a gun easier than I can obtain and maintain a drivers at least in CA as I don't know what they do in Arizona. And a three day waiting period while they do a background check is nothing.

To be fair, without looking them up, I suspect that it might be a little harder to buy a gun in CA but for you to make a statement "that its hard to buy a gun and if you think otherwise you're extremely ignorant" is just not true.


desertpea
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Posted: 1/24/2013 4:23:55 PM

To be fair, without looking them up, I suspect that it might be a little harder to buy a gun in CA but for you to make a statement "that its hard to buy a gun and if you think otherwise you're extremely ignorant" is just not true.


I think you have poor reading comprehension because there is no post made by me that says that.

You should stop being so lazy and look up California's gun laws. You can purchase a gun in California, but actually complying with all the laws relating to owning one legally is a lot of hoops. The laws are structured to make owning a gun legally extremely difficult, and actually defeats the purpose of self-defense.

It is completely anti-woman because California will furlough domestic violence criminals, and all the restraining orders in the world will not prevent revenge acts of violence against these women. If they stored their weapons according to California law, they would be dead.

Californians are most vulnerable when they are in their vehicle, because a law abiding gun owner would have their magazine and gun completely separate from one another in different parts of the car in a locked box. Can't have anything in your glove compartment. So if anyone tries shoot you in your car, you're pretty much SOL.

If you are in San Francisco, pretty much the only people who can concealed carry are police officers, privileged political individuals like Diane Feinstein, and criminals. As a resident of San Francisco, you cannot apply for a CCW. They are a no-issue city. You'll just have to accept you are not special enough.

And there is a ten day waiting period to purchase a firearm in California after successfully completing a Handgun Safety Course and have a certificate to prove it. And you cannot buy more than one gun in any 30 day period.

Plus, if there is a child in the house, you must keep all of your firearms locked up in a gun safe.

Which is why I rarely go to California. You have way too many criminals with guns.

Krazyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:05:21 PM

Anyone who thinks it is easy to legally get a gun of any type in this country is extremely ignorant


First, this is a quote from your post. You were pretty clear so....

Second, I'm not being lazy about looking up gun laws in San Francisco or California because I don't care since I'm never buying a gun. I know California has tough laws and San Francisco is going to make them tougher and that is fine by me. But there other states where it is easy to buy a gun and there loopholes like gun shows and private sales so I think your statement is wrong.

I knew about Arizona gun laws because of Fast and Furious so I used it as an example. I'm sure if I wanted to spend more time I could find a lot more examples.


sunny 5
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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:20:54 PM
and in SF, most of us are very happy with the restrictive gun laws. we have 1/3 the murders that the city across the bay has...in Oakland. we have a strong police force and good community policing. most of the gun violence, like everywhere else, is concentrated in low income neighborhoods...with gangs where people know each other. not all of them, but many of them.

our justice system works to stop crime at a lower level, and to rehabilitate prisoners in our county jail. we have a very high level of people on probation..but they are rarely involved in more crime.

outsiders cause more problems for us...but in this town, you may not be able to buy a gun easily, but you can always get a hot meal, a caring person to talk to.. and usually a shelter bed.

I-95
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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:27:57 PM

Anyone who thinks it is easy to legally get a gun of any type in this country is extremely ignorant



Providing you have no criminal record, it's pretty darn easy to get a gun in a lot of States. Florida doesn't require anything but your being over 18, have no criminal record, and wait 72 hrs before getting the gun ONLY if it's a hand gun. There is no waiting period for any other type of gun. Florida gun dealers are not required to be licensed by the State either.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/24/2013 6:25:01 PM



and in SF, most of us are very happy with the restrictive gun laws.


From HuffPo...


In San Francisco, the number of robberies involving a gun nearly doubled from 77 (per 100,000 people) in 2000 to 129 in 2010, while the number of gun assaults rose from 24.3 to 31.9.


San Francisco is one of the cities with the toughest gun control laws, yet gun crimes nearly doubled. In my opinion, it is probably one of the most unsafe cities in this country because...


but you can always get a hot meal, a caring person to talk to.. and usually a shelter bed.


They also allow any mentally ill person or criminal to set up shop on their streets and parks. High per capita rate of registered sex offenders as well. So, I have no problem with that as long as you keep that to San Francisco. The rest of the country doesn't want to emulate you.


But there other states where it is easy to buy a gun and there loopholes like gun shows and private sales so I think your statement is wrong.


You need to pass a background check. If you want high crime where you live, then that's you and a few other major cities. The rest of the country is not San Francisco, and has absolutely no desire to emulate San Francisco. If you like living in a place where criminals know you cannot defend yourself and subject yourself to living like that, then that is your business.

These mass shootings originate from mentally ill people, not legal gun owners. The crime originates from criminals, not legal gun owners. You need to do something about the people, and not the guns. Taking away the right of self defense only increases the amount of crime.

Again, if you fail the background check, NOTHING HAPPENS. So instead of banning guns, try fixing that "loophole" instead. The ACLU will put up a fight, but I'm sure you have no issue rallying a campaign against them for it.

sunny 5
PeaFixture

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Posted: 1/24/2013 6:41:05 PM
nstead, the drop is just the latest in a national and local five-year decrease in violent crime: San Francisco's annual homicide averages have nearly halved since 2004. And according to the San Francisco Chronicle,

more recent results


San Francisco extended a three-year run of historically low homicide totals in 2011, a decline that defies easy explanation as it stretches through tough economic times.

The city experienced a spike in killings from 2004 to 2008, with an average of 93 a year. But the past three years have ended with homicide counts on a level last seen in the 1960s: 45 victims in 2009, 48 in 2010 and 50 last year.

San Francisco also saw a 6 percent drop in total violent crime last year - homicides, assaults, robberies and rapes.

sex offenders can't live within a certain distance from schools/parks, etc. and many of them live in sf because there is cheap housing not near schools..



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Through-hard-times-S-F-killings-at-historic-lows-2441692.php#ixzz2IwXpnFGG


desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/24/2013 6:44:52 PM

Providing you have no criminal record, it's pretty darn easy to get a gun in a lot of States. Florida doesn't require anything but your being over 18, have no criminal record, and wait 72 hrs before getting the gun ONLY if it's a hand gun. There is no waiting period for any other type of gun. Florida gun dealers are not required to be licensed by the State either.


Not every state is the same. I can CCW in Florida, and Florida people can CCW in Nevada.

But when people think buying a gun is the same thing as walking into CVS and buying a pack of Skittles, and base their arguments around that, it is a terrible debate about a very real issue dealing with mentally ill people going on shooting sprees.

I have no problem with further regulation that if someone fails a background check, that they get a visit from the police, for example. I am convinced this whole thing really should be a mental illness discussion.

But law abiding people shouldn't be treated like criminals and have their guns that they obtained legally and responsibly cared for taken away from them by force. I will never support that.

desertpea
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 1/24/2013 7:11:45 PM
SF has extremely high gun crime rates and extremely restrictive gun laws in place.

They even tried to ban guns completely in 2005 with Prop H, and it got overturned by the courts.

Gun crime doubled in the past ten years. Actually, the whole Bay Area is one big crime pool.


leftturnonly
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Posted: 1/25/2013 12:46:19 AM

I have no problem with further regulation that if someone fails a background check, that they get a visit from the police, for example.

Sometimes, applicants actually do get that visit from law enforcement.





Florida doesn't require anything but your being over 18, have no criminal record, and wait 72 hrs before getting the gun ONLY if it's a hand gun. There is no waiting period for any other type of gun. Florida gun dealers are not required to be licensed by the State either.


This is misleading. Gun dealers in Florida still need to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL), and gun purchasers not only must fill out ATF form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record), they still must have a background check done by NICS as per the Brady Law for all firearms purchases and/or alternate permits for handguns and long guns from these dealers.

There are 14 questions on this form, and lying on it is a felony offense that can be punished with up to five years in prison plus fines.


Buying a firearm from a dealer is not the same as walking in and buying a pair of flip flops, no matter if they can both be bought at the same store at the same time on the same bill of sale.

Is it still too easy? That's a matter up for discussion, but it is not as easy as you make it out to be.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



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Posted: 1/25/2013 1:07:29 AM
This is a nation that prides itself on innocent until proven guilty.

Once someone has passed all the requirements that both their state and the federal government has made, they have the right to legally purchase a firearm and ammo.

We are not a nation that goes the "what if?" route. Criminals must be proven guilty. If we start down the road of "What if this person *flips*?" then we are substantially changing our fundamental character as a nation.

There has always been an inherent probability that some would get too much benefit of the doubt through this national philosophy of innocent until proven guilty, but we have chosen this way anyway.

This is a hard subject for all of us. Innocent until proven guilty is a hard philosophy to live by, even if the subject is gun ownership.






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



I-95
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Posted: 1/25/2013 4:11:52 AM

This is misleading. Gun dealers in Florida still need to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL), and gun purchasers not only must fill out ATF form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record), they still must have a background check done by NICS as per the Brady Law for all firearms purchases and/or alternate permits for handguns and long guns from these dealers.

There are 14 questions on this form, and lying on it is a felony offense that can be punished with up to five years in prison plus fines.


And how often is somebody actually charged with lying on that questionnaire?

I did say they needed to go through a background check, but if you have no criminal history, that's not a problem. Nor is answering 14 questions, that takes all of about 5 minutes.


Buying a firearm from a dealer is not the same as walking in and buying a pair of flip flops, no matter if they can both be bought at the same store at the same time on the same bill of sale.

Is it still too easy? That's a matter up for discussion, but it is not as easy as you make it out to be.


Actually, in Florida, it IS that easy. It's even easier if you go to a gun show, where nobody asks any questions.

I-95
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Posted: 1/25/2013 4:26:23 AM

This is a nation that prides itself on innocent until proven guilty.

Once someone has passed all the requirements that both their state and the federal government has made, they have the right to legally purchase a firearm and ammo.

We are not a nation that goes the "what if?" route. Criminals must be proven guilty. If we start down the road of "What if this person *flips*?" then we are substantially changing our fundamental character as a nation.

There has always been an inherent probability that some would get too much benefit of the doubt through this national philosophy of innocent until proven guilty, but we have chosen this way anyway.

This is a hard subject for all of us. Innocent until proven guilty is a hard philosophy to live by, even if the subject is gun ownership.


Yes, it is a difficult subject, and each side seems to have an answer for every argument the opposition brings up.

There's no way to answer the 'what if' question. I know people who can present as perfectly normal, but I wouldn't want a gun in their hands of any reason...but they'd pass a background check and a mental health questionnaire. The Sandy Hook shooter could have purchased guns legally, if he'd been willing to wait for the 3 days required by law. He wasn't.

I would guess that most DV homicides are committed by people who have no trouble passing background checks or mental health questionnaires, and purchased their guns legally. Since there's no way of telling who's going to flip, we have to come up with another method of control for weapons purchases. Whatever it is, it will undoubtedly upset the pro-gun folks, but I don't recall the Constitution saying it had to be easy for someone to own a gun, just that we had the right to bear arms.

lynlam
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Posted: 1/25/2013 6:39:46 AM
"Actually, in Florida, it IS that easy. It's even easier if you go to a gun show, where nobody asks any questions."
-------------

The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer. There is no such thing. Most if not all of the people who rent tables at shows are actual FFL dealers, bringing their inventory to sell and they are still bound by the same ATF rules as they are when they are selling in their shops. They still fill out the forms, check id's and run the NICS check. Now if I as a private gun owner wish to sell my M1 Garand, I can take it there and sell it to a dealer, or yes, maybe another Joe Schmo who is walking around looking for one. In that case, it is a private sale, person to person and no dealer or NICS involved. But that is not a gun show loophole. I can sell my gun to any other person as long as I know they are a resident of my state at anytime.
And in all actuality, less than 1% of all guns used in crimes are purchased at gun shows. So why are we demonizing yet another segement of people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong?





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

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lynlam
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Posted: 1/25/2013 6:49:42 AM
"I guess that means the guns in your house are unsecured and loaded. Don't you love your kids enough to protect them?

And your guns = cars analogy is ludicrous and idiotic. As are you."
--------
And you are a bitch.

None of your damn business where my guns are. But I will tell you that my kids are both crack shots and knowledgeable about their firearms. They both own several. And my youngest is going to take up the sport of Cowboy mounted shooting too. Guns are not something to be feared when you actually use your head, you dimwit.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

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PeaCeaRyder
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Posted: 1/25/2013 7:46:31 AM

So why are we demonizing yet another segement of people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong?
Because they are easier to target than the actual criminals...which is why laws affect the law-abiding citizen more than they do the criminals. As long as there are people who have no respect for the law and their fellow citizens, there is going to be crime. I think the focus should be on the perpretrators, not the weapons.



"It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God...and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln

Proclamation of a National Fast-Day, March 30, 1863.
Quoted in Marion Mills Miller, ed., Life and Works of Abraham Lincoln, Centenary Edition, In Nine Volumes: Volume VI (New York: The Current Literature Publishing Co., 1907), p. 156.

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Posted: 1/25/2013 7:57:15 AM

Because they are easier to target than the actual criminals...which is why laws affect the law-abiding citizen more than they do the criminals. As long as there are people who have no respect for the law and their fellow citizens, there is going to be crime. I think the focus should be on the perpretrators, not the weapons.



That's ridiculous considering the amount of money spent on law enforcement in relation to that spent on promoting gun control. The proliferation of guns and gun culture in the United States contributes to its high violent crime rate and it is intellectually valid to open a dialog on their effect and control. Meanwhile, the proposed measures are mild and target weapons that are frequently used in mass murders.

I-95
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Posted: 1/25/2013 8:13:10 AM

And in all actuality, less than 1% of all guns used in crimes are purchased at gun shows. So why are we demonizing yet another segement of people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong?


I'm not demonizing anyone. I'm just looking for solutions to what the majority of people think is a problem. Why do you believe we're out to get you, or your guns?

I can't speak for any other State, but in Florida I don't need to be a registered gun seller to get a booth at a gun show, and Florida doesn't require a private seller to anything, not even write up a bill of sale. And how do you know that less than 1% of guns purchases at gun shows are used in a crime? That's not a snarky question, but how would anyone have complete records for that?


Guns are not something to be feared when you actually use your head, you dimwit.


I realize you weren't directing this at me, but I just wanted to say, I agree with you. Guns in the hands of people who respect them, know how to use them, and don't think they are an alternative to conversation. No one needs to fear that. I do fear people who think violence is the first line of defense though....anybody who peppers their conversation with 'I'm gonna kick his ass' or 'I'm going to take him down', is not someone I want to have easy access to weapons...while I'm anywhere around them...and here in the South, you hear those words a LOT!!!

PeaCeaRyder
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Posted: 1/25/2013 8:14:36 AM

Meanwhile, the proposed measures are mild and target weapons that are frequently used in mass murders.
"Frequently used" are the key words here. My point is that the focus should be on the ones who are committing the crimes, not on the weapons they use. You could ban all the guns in the country and criminals will still find a way to obtain them. The only people who would be out are those who abide by the law.



"It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God...and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln

Proclamation of a National Fast-Day, March 30, 1863.
Quoted in Marion Mills Miller, ed., Life and Works of Abraham Lincoln, Centenary Edition, In Nine Volumes: Volume VI (New York: The Current Literature Publishing Co., 1907), p. 156.

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." - George Orwell
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