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Posted 2/4/2013 by Epeanymous in NSBR Board
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Epeanymous
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:07:55 PM
It isn't over. Evidently there is some pushback against the move towards letting individual troops decide whether or not to permit gay students to participate.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16830205-gravely-distressed-religion-looms-large-over-boy-scouts-decision-on-gays?lite

freecharlie
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:09:53 PM
Of course there is.


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Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:18:29 PM
Why does it matter? I will never understand. Is your faith so shaky that you can't even be around gay people? It's ridiculous.



IleneTell
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:21:49 PM
All this leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, in addition to the other issues they have had....even if they start making positive changes now, I would never get around to wanting to include my son in that organization.



IScrapCrap
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:27:20 PM

Overall, faith-based groups sponsored nearly 70 percent of the more than 100,000 Scouting units that year, compared with civic organizations backing 23 percent and educational outfits 8 percent.


not surprised

TheBiscuitScraps
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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:07:35 PM
If changes are not made BSA will drop a lot of members. I'm sre there will be another organization formed that will offer the same type opportunities that will not be so bigoted.

Such fear in the world keeps so many from knowing what true love of the human spirit really is.

I get so sick of this attitude.


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Gennifer
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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:14:26 PM

If changes are not made BSA will drop a lot of members.
Yeah, but honestly, I think they will also lose a lot of members if changes are made.

Sad.



stittsygirl
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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:21:48 PM

If changes are not made BSA will drop a lot of members. I'm sre there will be another organization formed that will offer the same type opportunities that will not be so bigoted.


Members and more corporate sponsors. The BSA, like the religious groups that support the ban, will eventually lose all relevancy and sit on the fringe of society. The younger generations aren't going to buy into the bigotry. You can already see the attitudes changing across multiple generations.






Kristen, lucky mom and proud retired Army wife!




Gennifer
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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:30:46 PM
Yeah, but I think that some people are drawn to it, too. Look at the how many people wanted to support Chik-Fil-A, or even look at membership in the KKK.

(Totally not comparing the KKK to the BSA, just using it to show that no matter how unpopular an opinion is globally, there are always people who support it.)



lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:53:34 PM
Yes, and it's not an easy process.
I hope they do the right thing- and drop the ban.

stittsygirl
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:15:40 AM
I think that 20 years or so down the road, any organization that still has these kinds of anti-gay policies in place will be looked upon like any that would have racist policies today. Things have already progressed so rapidly in the past 10 years, the next decade should really be interesting. I believe respected, mainstream organizations are going to have to adapt to at least maintain their numbers. To grow, they will have to appeal to the younger generations, who overall seem much more enlightened and tolerant of differences, from my perspective anyway.


Sarah*H
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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:41:38 AM
It shouldn't be a blanket statement that the problem is with faith based organizations which charter troops. There are plenty of denominations in the country which have abolished gay discrimination within the denominations including the United Methodists which are cited in the article. Presbyterians (PCUSA), UCC, and Episcopalians have all adopted pro-gay positions as well. Since neither the Catholics nor the Mormon Church has said anything official about the proposed change, I'm not worried yet.



Gennifer
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:29:25 AM



IleneTell
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:32:39 AM

"We reaffirm the mission of the BSA, which is ‘to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.' "


I take that to mean that their position is that being gay is an immoral and unethical choice?



Gennifer
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:33:51 AM
Well, of course.



MerryMom937
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:43:18 AM
BSA has left the membership decision to the charter organization that sponsors the Pack, Troop, or Crew.

Are these "complainers" the same people who squawked loudly in opposition when an aspect of the ACA was to require that employers (including faith based employers) provided birth control? The scuttlebutt was that the faith based employer should make the decision and not have it "mandated" on them. That it was in opposition to their faith principals.




*maureen*
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:50:49 AM

BSA has left the membership decision to the charter organization that sponsors the Pack, Troop, or Crew.


Exactly, which means that if the troop wants to discriminate against gays the BSA won't stop them. What the hell has changed? BSA are a poor example of moral living in my opinion. Their choice how to run their group, but I wouldn't allow my son to be associated with an organization that actively discriminates.


Are these "complainers" the same people who squawked loudly in opposition when an aspect of the ACA was to require that employers (including faith based employers) provided birth control?


Nope. You're free to run your organization however you wish and I am free to speak my mind about your choices.

IScrapCrap
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:59:08 AM
I'll see if I can find the link, but last night on the news they gave a break down of religion of the scouts.

LDS, was 400,00+ Catholic, Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, and Methodist were the next highest in numbers. Anyway, it made up a HUGE percentage of scouts. The top 3 being LDS, Catholic, and Baptist. All of which don't want rule changes.

The LDS church has A LOT of money. It's going to have to take many corporate sponsors to withdraw as well as public opinion of the church to go dramatically down before this becomes a national rule.

Even locally, it seems shaky.


Salt Lake council opposes change to policy


I am 0% shocked.

Mary Mary
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:13:48 AM
I am disappointed. In our church, we maintain the stance that being a homosexual is not wrong or a sin as long as they are living chaste lives. So if a boy starts scouts at a young age, invests hours into the program and later figures out he is gay he is not allowed to continue? That is stupid and punishing him for something he can't control and most likely feels extreme inner turmoil over.



Mary

IleneTell
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:26:23 AM

That is stupid and punishing him for something he can't control


I agree witrh you. But I guess their understanding of homosexuality continues to be that it's a choice a person makes?



Mary Mary
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:33:23 AM
But it's not. The church has made statements saying that they believe that homosexuality is something people are born with. So this doesn't make any sense.

I am an active LDS and happy in the church. But I find this stance very disappointing.


Mary

IleneTell
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:37:33 AM

The church has made statements saying that they believe that homosexuality is something people are born with. So this doesn't make any sense.


That's really mind boggling....do they not follow the standards of the church?



*maureen*
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:39:48 AM
I get what you're saying Mary Mary, it's almost as if they are condemning him for a sin he has yet to commit. It's one of the main reasons I struggle with "love the sinner, hate the sin" theory. Really aren't we all sinners and in that case what makes my sin more "morally acceptable" than the sin of homosexuality?

TinaFB
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:53:55 AM

I am disappointed. In our church, we maintain the stance that being a homosexual is not wrong or a sin as long as they are living chaste lives. So if a boy starts scouts at a young age, invests hours into the program and later figures out he is gay he is not allowed to continue? That is stupid and punishing him for something he can't control and most likely feels extreme inner turmoil over.

It's not just about the boys though. BSA doesn't allow gay parents to be leaders.


Tina


stittsygirl
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:58:50 AM

I am disappointed. In our church, we maintain the stance that being a homosexual is not wrong or a sin as long as they are living chaste lives. So if a boy starts scouts at a young age, invests hours into the program and later figures out he is gay he is not allowed to continue? That is stupid and punishing him for something he can't control and most likely feels extreme inner turmoil over.



So why isn't a legal homosexual marriage considered living a "chaste" life?

And how is your scenario above much different from raising an LDS child to believe that marriage and parenthood are the ultimate source of happiness in this life and beyond, but then the church telling its gay young men and women "Oops, not for you, you must remain alone and celibate, unless you are willing to live a lie or repress what you are. Let's hope it all works out for you on the other side, but we don't really know." That's much more brutal than "Sorry, you can't have your Eagle Scout".

I believe the LDS church will also change its stance on homosexuals eventually, as it has had to on other "doctrines" in the past to survive and remain relevant. I'm just really happy I'm no longer raising my own children LDS, because it sure can be a mindf*ck.




Mary Mary
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:06:51 AM
I know, Tina. I don't like that either.

I understand the LDS church's viewpoint that living a gay lifestyle is immoral. But, I don't think anybody wants young teenage scouts to be sexually active, regardless of their sexual persuasion. Right? So assuming that a boy comes out and is not sexually active... the BSA still kicks them out the program? That is wrong.

This is a topic I don't usually discuss much. I don't totally match up with my church's stance. But I do think things are slowly getting better.

I'm probably not even making sense.


Mary

Mary Mary
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:09:47 AM
Stittsy, Honestly I have wondered the exact same thing myself. I don't know.

I voted for gay marriage in Washington in November, so take everything I say with the grain of salt.


Mary

wholarmor
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:10:11 AM
I've seen several LDS members- including Mitt Romney- in favor of lifting the ban. Maybe Jill needs to shake her leaders' cages since she says that she's so good at it, and they seem to listen to her. The LDS church changed their stance on black people when they were being socially pressured. Maybe they'll change their stance on this.


Kris
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scrappin jen
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:12:36 AM
I do think it is a complex issue beyond just saying we change now- to have it be enough. You have to think about how BSA as an organization is set up. They do not mandate what happens on a local level. While BSA, the national organization, can change course and make it all inclusive, it wouldn't really fix the problem. Each Troop is set up thru charter at another organization. They function as a Troop under the organization that charters them. They file paperwork each year to establish the chartering organization, although once established it rarely changes.

In the case of our area- all boyscout troops are chartered through our local churches, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Methodist. The church who charters the group would then need to decide, based on current policy to be an all inclusive troop. I think getting the churches to do that would be tough if not impossible. Now, that doesn't stop from more global thinking churches from chartering Troops and making them all open to all sexual orientations. It is just that until now they haven't done that. Maybe if more organztions chartered Troops they would be open for the change. Since it has been left to the churches to support the Troops it is more complicated. If BSA changes its stance it could happen and people looking for that troop could go there. I just don't see how they can force a church to condone what they don't believe in.

BSA is tied too closely with Christian faith to reinvent the wheel overnite in current troops but going forward we could see progress.

I understand the frustration. I think we have many Christians and even my Catholic friends who are frustrated by the discrimination. Many people don't like BSA because of their religious ties- even though it is technically open to people of all religions, in our country Christianity and the like still hold the majority- and charter the troops.

I have had 3 emails in the past week calling people to action to reach out to the BSA as they make their decision. Interestingly enough all 3 from different sources and different letters was all to encourage BSA to hold the course in duty to God and speak out against the changes. I thought I'd see someone calling out for the other side but that was not the case. One was a link to an online petition that had close to 11,000 signatures even?! I think an effort rallied and they were heard by the looks of this article. Not enough voices on the other side to counter them.

Personally, this topic always confused me. I think all people have a right in their beliefs, whether it be for homosexuality, belief in God, or whatever. Why we can't respect each other and our beliefs is sad to me. To try to force everyone to agree with everything is stupid- we are a big enough world to have place for everyone.

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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:15:47 AM

Personally, this topic always confused me. I think all people have a right in their beliefs, whether it be for homosexuality, belief in God, or whatever. Why we can't respect each other and our beliefs is sad to me. To try to force everyone to agree with everything is stupid- we are a big enough world to have place for everyone.


But my issue with it is how does just having a gay scout/leader in your troop affect YOUR belief in God or homosexuality? It doesn't make any sense to me.




stittsygirl
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:17:38 AM

Stittsy, Honestly I have wondered the exact same thing myself. I don't know.

I voted for gay marriage in Washington in November, so take everything I say with the grain of salt.


I'm really glad to hear you voted for it .



But my issue with it is how does just having a gay scout/leader in your troop affect YOUR belief in God or homosexuality? It doesn't make any sense to me.


And in the Girl Scout organization it doesn't make any difference. Why can't the BSA do the same? How does that make them more "moral"?


I like you.


Thank you .


scrappin jen
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:21:49 AM

But my issue with it is how does just having a gay scout/leader in your troop affect YOUR belief in God or homosexuality? It doesn't make any sense to me.



I agree with you 100%- it doesn't effect my beliefs either way. I can repect different beliefs but am not sure the rest of the world is ready to on both sides of this equation.

wholarmor
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:36:06 AM
And I'm a terrible Cub Scout Den Leader because I don't even know who our charter is, lol. Our Pack meets in a church building once a month, but we're not affiliated with them. Our boys are divided by which elementary school they go to. We have boys of various religions. The church that I attend has a Christian school that used to have their own charter, but they disbanded several years ago. My son and I were the only ones wearing our uniform on Scout Sunday.


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~Lauren~
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:49:36 AM
I really don't understand why this issue is such a constant source of discussion. BSA has their own beliefs and policies. You (general you) have the choice to support them and to have your sons join or not based upon your beliefs. If you don't like what they do; have nothing to do with them. I find the constant uproar about the group abiding by it's beliefs to be ironic, especially words like "why can't they let everyone believe in what they want" when people are attempting to deny the BSA that very thing (the right to believe in what they want and to act according to those beliefs). In the end, it's the same old, same old (tolerance extends only to those who think like "I" do)

I think those who are so disgruntled about the policies should start their own groups and organizations rather than expecting the BSA to conform to their desires.







Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

scrappower
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:53:56 AM
I don't have anything to do with them and my DH who is an Eagle Scout doesn't anymore either. And neither of us will until the entire organization stops discriminating. But I see no issues with expressing your displeasure over policy that you don't agree with. People do it all the time for various reasons.

Would you say the same thing if they were discriminating against people based on their race? For many of us it is the same thing.




~Lauren~
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:55:38 AM
No, it's not the same. This is a private group making rules based upon their religious beliefs about a non-protected class. So it's not the same as discrimination based on race.

The BSA have not waivered with respect to their tenets. Just like you want to be free to believe in your religious tenets and to have activities that accord with those beliefs, so do they. It seems like we have the "aren't the Boy Scouts terrible because of their position on gays" mantra and the attendant outrage about 4-5 times a year.

They are who they are. They don't force anyone to join.





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:58:54 AM


No, it's not the same. This is a private group making rules based upon their religious beliefs about a non-protected class. So it's not the same as discrimination based on race.

The BSA have not waivered with respect to their tenets. Just like you want to be free to believe in your religious tenets and to have activities that accord with those beliefs, so do they. It seems like we have the "aren't the Boy Scouts terrible because of their position on gays" mantra and the attendant outrage about 4-5 times a year.

They are who they are. They don't force anyone to join.


And I disagree, to each their own....

I never said they can't have their own beliefs, just that I don't agree with them. I have the right to voice my disagreement with them as much as they are able to have them.



lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:59:22 AM
It is a constant source of discussion because there are many of us against discrimination of any kind.

it's like people saying they have the 'right' to be bigots ...and to racially stereotype people.

We as a country have grown beyond that.

~Lauren~
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:59:35 AM
What is it you disagree with?





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

~Lauren~
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:01:33 PM
They have a right to socialize as they see fit. They are not out there beating up gay men, they are not actively harming anyone. They are entitled to form associations with others who share their views and beliefs; just like you are. Just because you don't like or agree with those beliefs is no reason to look to deprive them of that right of association. They obviously believe that your views are WRONG. Unlike you, they are not seeking to force you to adhere to their beliefs like you are with them. They simply require that if you join their group, you cannot violate those beliefs.

If you feel their beliefs are wrong start your own version of the boy scouts. I feel fairly confident you won't find the BSA harassing your group for allowing gays.





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:05:11 PM
It takes action to initiate change. And sometimes things need to change.



*maureen*
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:05:33 PM

it's like people saying they have the 'right' to be bigots ...and to racially stereotype people.



Technically, people do have the right to be bigots. It is our reaction to their bigotry that must be clarified. I will not support an organization that discriminates based on sexual orientation, either by letting my son be a member or financially through fund raisers. However, I will support their right to their beliefs however distasteful I find those beliefs.

lindywholoveskids
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:06:05 PM
I will repeat. Discrimination of any kind is wrong. I will not support this or any other organization that discriminates.

also, my synagogue and other Jewish organizations are against bias/discrimination of any kind. They do not support the Boy Scouts in any way.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:07:00 PM
Oh and just FTR I am not saying they can't have their own beliefs, just that those beliefs don't absolve them from anyone speaking out against them. Just like anyone else's beliefs. You can believe what you want, but others can and will disagree and have the right to voice that disagreement.



PEAce sign
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:13:12 PM
they're gonna turn you all gayyyyyyyy!!!


is what stupid people think.

*maureen*
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:15:17 PM

Oh and just FTR I am not saying they can't have their own beliefs, just that those beliefs don't absolve them from anyone speaking out against them. Just like anyone else's beliefs. You can believe what you want, but others can and will disagree and have the right to voice that disagreement.


I'm in complete and total agreement.

~Lauren~
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:16:22 PM
No one is claiming that anyone who disagrees with the BSA must support them.

And why is it necessary for them to change their views? They are a private organization and as Maureen states, they are free to believe what they wish and to associate with others who believe as they do. No one is forcing anyone to believe as the BSA do.





Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian - Henry Ford

sunny 5
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:18:14 PM
also...the us boy scouts are outliers in the world wide scouting movement. the european scout organizations have no problems with gay scouts...and in fact many are coed too!!

so the bsa is not following the world wide scouting trend...to be inclusive...and there is no reason not to advocate for them to change.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:18:59 PM
Partially because my dh was very involved in the organization and is saddened by their views. He wishes they would change. He isn't demanding they do, but he will state his views on it because that is his right.

I don't see why it is so hard to understand why others would be against a large organization discriminating against boys and/or their families.



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Loc: Drunk on the lawn in a nuclear dawn

Posted: 2/5/2013 12:19:01 PM
I support their right, as a private entity, to exclude whomever they choose. They're choosing to make the change, to lift the ban, and allow gay scouts. They're making that change due to financial pressures put on them by corporate sponsors who are threatening to pull out if they don't lift the ban.

And, btw, I also support the right of their corporate sponsors, as private entities, to withhold funds if they don't make lift the ban.


Jo Mama

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Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn

The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams

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