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TinCin
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 29,331
February 2002
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Loc: Living in the palm of the hand.
 |  Posted: 3/3/2013 7:41:39 AM
A resident collapsed and the nurse calls 911, then refuses to perform CPR as requested because she says it is against company policy. WTH? That is so disturbing. The facility issued a statement saying indeed that is their policy and she was following it.
No CPR for you...
ETA - corrected title from assisted living facility to retirement facility. |
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froggy one
PeaAddict
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 7:47:02 AM
I can only wonder if the patients signed something like Do Not Recussitate paperwork when they were admitted to the facilty. It is still such a shame.
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Woobster
The Banana Under the Couch Pea
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 7:48:49 AM
I can understand that their policy is to call 911 prior to starting CPR, and that they are an "independent" living facility, not an "assiste" living facility. However, when the emergency personnel are advising (or begging) you to administer CPR... It's time to do CPR.
I can't imagine refusing to do CPR unless I was unqualified to do so.
That poor woman. | |
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GoBucks319
I PEA Scarlet and Gray!
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GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43,061
July 2002
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 7:51:58 AM
From what I heard on CNN this morning, residents sign some kind of form that basically states that all the complex will do is call 911, that they won't do anything else (like CPR). Which I think is ridiculous and irresponsible.
I can't imagine refusing to do CPR unless I was unqualified to do so.
Thing is that even if you don't know CPR, the operator will walk you through things you can do to help the victim until the EMS personnel shows up.
This reminds me that I need to update my CPR skills. | |
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ThreeWishes
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August 2002
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 7:52:00 AM
I can understand she was only doing what the policy states, but I don't think I could stand by and let someone die without doing anything. I don't think I could live with myself. | |
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CountryHam
StuckOnPeas
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 7:54:54 AM
I am sure the seniors would of been aware of the DNR (do not resuscitate) policy when they were admitted. Most people just assume it would never be an issue.
I also don't know any circumstances where you can force someone to do CPR outside facilities where it's expected like a hospital.
It's been years since I have taken CPR courses but one of the things I remember is that we were never legally expected to do CPR on anyone as long as we didn't identify ourselves as knowing CPR. If were at a scene and said "I know CPR" but then refused to do it we might be called into question.
I think it was also wrong of the dispatcher to try and bully the caller into performing CPR once the caller said they were not able to do so.
when I think of it, around here all CNAs are CPR certified, but this resident lived in a DNR facility.
Think of it this way.. how would you feel if your DNR elderly parent had CPR performed on them and was brought back to live a vegetative life. Despite a DNR being in place? | |
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Duchess of Stuff
StuckOnPeas
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December 2009
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 7:55:50 AM
ridiculous and irresponsible.
Agree. I will add stupid as well. |
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TinCin
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
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February 2002
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 7:56:07 AM
Thanks Woobster, I saw it on the TV news first and googled it for the link. They referred to it as assisted living. I was just shocked that a nurse of all people, would not perform CPR.
It just seems crazy to have that as a policy. I mean if I were walking down the street and saw someone collapse, I would certainly do all I could to help them. |
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guzismom
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
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March 2002
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:00:27 AM
While I disagree with the decision of the facility and professionals NOT to offer CPR in all cases, if it was stated in the contract that this was the policy I don't see how anyone could question the legality of it. |
Marilyn (now in New Mexico!!)
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GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
PeaNut 43,061
July 2002
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:01:03 AM
I think it was also wrong of the dispatcher to try and bully the caller into performing CPR once the caller said they were not able to do so.
I disagree. That dispatcher did the right thing. She is there to help the victim, not the lily-livered idiot who didn't put down the phone and help someone in distress. If the person calling didn't know CPR, fine she can get a pass for not doing CPR... but the dispatcher asked repeatedly to pass the phone to someone else who would help the victim.
I don't know about you, but if someone is DYING on the floor and needs help, I'm not going to let some f***ed up work policy stop me. If the company fires me for that, fine. That's their prerogative. But I'll leave that job knowing that I did the right thing.
The fact that the caller wouldn't even pass the phone to someone else is disgraceful. If she didn't want to help, fine. Let someone else do it. But for pity's sake... help the person in distress instead of being a kool-aid drinking employee. | |
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CountryHam
StuckOnPeas
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August 2007
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:11:49 AM
... I would bet my life that had they did cpr and the elderly lady, who lived in a no CPR facility, was brought back to live a vegetative life the same media would still be crying "foul". If this was a visitor to the facility I would be singing a different song of course. But for the residents who themselves or their families agreed to this policy upon admission it is what it is. | |
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Peabay
Happy now?
PeaNut 156,993
July 2004
Posts: 44,659
Layouts: 13
Loc: Connecticut
 | Posted: 3/3/2013 8:17:22 AM
... I would bet my life that had they did cpr and the elderly lady, who lived in a no CPR facility, was brought back to live a vegetative life the same media would still be crying "foul". If this was a visitor to the facility I would be singing a different song of course. But for the residents who themselves or their families agreed to this policy upon admission it is what it is.
Aren't there Good Samaritan laws protecting those who attempt CPR and something goes wrong? I can't see anyone complaining if you're only trying to save someone's life. I get that it's a no CPR facility, but I know I couldn't sit there and watch someone die. |
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CountryHam
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 335,105
August 2007
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:25:20 AM
Good Samaritan laws are not for trained people.
I don't know any CNA, LPN, or RNs not trained in
basic CPR.
Those are for every day folks like us who try and help
the choking man in a restaurant, or the car accident
victim, or the man who collapses on the side walk.
If one of us tried to do CPR on that hospital perhaps
it would be applied to us since we are not trained and
are not restricted by the policies of the facility,
A DNR order (whether part of a policy or doctor written order)
is a HUGE legal deal.
Morally I am not sure where I stand,
the lady lived where she lived.
If she was gasping "help me, help me" it is different
then passed out on the floor. It sounds like this was
a non verbal situation. | |
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h*pea*ing
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 231,164
November 2005
Posts: 5,106
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Loc: Midwest
 | Posted: 3/3/2013 8:30:19 AM
Since the company has a no CPR policy than I don't have a problem with it. The residents would have known that moving in so there is no fault of the company.
For those of you saying you would do CPR anyway you need to think twice. My grandmother had a stroke 6 yrs ago. She is in a care facility and has a DNR in place. She has another stroke three weeks ago and another 2 days ago. If she collapsed and someone did CPR on her because they felt it was the right thing to do our family would be pissed to no end. We all love her, but the suffering she has gone through in the last many years is awful to see whenever we visit. She has wanted to die since her first stroke and all of us respect her choice of having a DNR in place.
I worked in the medical field for many years. I used to be a paramedic. If someone collapsed in front of me today, depending on the situation, I may NOT do CPR. The save rate in the field is below one percent. Those that do come "back to life" can have significant complications. Doing CPR does not automatically mean someone is going to live and maintain a good quality of life after the fact. Unless you've been there to witness the aftermath of a CPR save that really isn't a "everything is back to normal and life is fine" save it is going to be difficult to understand the logic behind it. |
~heather~
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elaynef
AncestralPea
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November 2002
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:38:30 AM
When my MIL was admitted to a nursing home, a DNR order was required for admission. We had to sign a legal document. |
And the King will tell them, when you did it to one of the least of these,you were doing it to me.
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Woobster
The Banana Under the Couch Pea
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February 2007
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:39:38 AM
but the dispatcher asked repeatedly to pass the phone to someone else who would help the victim.
I think this is what I have the hardest time with. The nurse didn't just refuse to do CPR due to the company policy. She refused to even try to find anyone else who could.
(I do feel for the nurse in this situation as well. I know it's easy to judge the situation from where I'm sitting. It just seems like there could have been someone... ANYONE... in the vicinity that could help.) | |
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Nicole in TX
The Peas did what we do and went insane over it
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:42:38 AM
I wonder if the facility had been sued over this in the past and that forced them to enact the policy. |
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*Delphinium Twinkle*
I'm just a pea:)
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:59:08 AM
"For those of you saying you would do CPR anyway you need to think twice. My grandmother had a stroke 6 yrs ago. She is in a care facility and has a DNR in place. She has another stroke three weeks ago and another 2 days ago. If she collapsed and someone did CPR on her because they felt it was the right thing to do our family would be pissed to no end. We all love her, but the suffering she has gone through in the last many years is awful to see whenever we visit. She has wanted to die since her first stroke and all of us respect her choice of having a DNR in place. "
What about the Good Samaritan that just tried to help? I'm sure you'd be mad but wouldn't you understand that someone just wanted to do the right thing? |
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tamhugh
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 12,875
March 2001
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 | Posted: 3/3/2013 9:01:39 AM
Aren't there Good Samaritan laws protecting those who attempt CPR and something goes wrong?
My MIL is an RN. We were just visiting her in FL and she mentioned that she let her professional license lapse. One of the reasons was that the Good Samaritan law does not apply to licensed professionals, and she could be sued if she did something and it went wrong. | |
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SayraG
PeaAddict
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 9:38:25 AM
It's my understanding that the Good Samaritan Laws, while they cover all of us, when they apply to trained professionals, it's usually in an emergency situation outside of a facility.
ex:
Off duty RN drives up on a wreck, sees unconcious/unresponsive driver, begins CPR.
We are charged with the duty to do all we can with what we have - basic life support or first aid. We are to accept NO remuneration at all. Grateful spouse hands you a $100 curbside now that the ambulance has arrived? HAND IT BACK. That would negate the GSL.
Many of us expect however, if in an emergency we've helped someone to the best of our abilities and the result is still fatal, a judge will accept our testimony to the fact and not rule against you and you can have a (more) clear conscience. The insurance companies are a different matter. All bets are off as to what could drag on there...
In a facility, if it's their policy, there may be a "hands off" mandate. There is a very fine line for people which needs to be cleared up when looking at DNRs, Living Wills, Advanced Directiives for healthcare, etc. If a pt has a DNR in place, this doesn't preclude someone from giving you the Heimlich should you be choking on food - or performing CPR should you stop breathing.
It's clearer when a pt is gravely ill, right? We all take a step back from the bedside and stay our hand against calling a code. You say a prayer and know this is one of the toughest things you'll do all day other than start compressions on the pt next door who *doesn"t* have a DNR and who passes anyway after a frantic emotional effort with family present.
To me, it sounds as if this facility (or its company) has been involved in a case where a pt/resident had a DNR in place, coded, and was resuscitated - perhaps to a vegetative state. And the insurance company - and maybe horrified family members - will hold them responsible for their entire care for the rest of their lives. That is a very, very large price tag, ruining many peoples' lives financially, especially when the incapacitated resident would have greatly preferred otherwise.
Witnessing such an event, even when all outcomes are positive are still traumatic and frightening. I understand the terrible feelings guilt, helplessness and desperation of everyone in that building as they think "NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING" or "IT'S NOT WORKING" or "OMG, THEY ARE DYING IN FRONT OF ME".
Complicating matters would definitely be everyone's perceptions of how everything is going sideways and absolutely AWFUL thoughts of the healthcare workers of "Dear God, they will OWN ME no matter what the outcome here."
This was an awful, awful tragedy for all involved.
EDITED TO ADD: I know PLENTY of fantastic, caring, experienced nurses who would say a prayer and KEEP DRIVING past the example wreck mentioned above - or NOT raise their hand on an airplane when someone collapses, etc... the repercussions can be great, life-changing and long lasting, and for many, too much to consider. |
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3kidmama
AncestralPea
PeaNut 268,201
July 2006
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 9:57:13 AM
EDITED TO ADD: I know PLENTY of experienced nurses who would say a prayer and KEEP DRIVING past the example wreck mentioned above - or NOT raise their hand on an airplane when someone collapses, etc... the repercussions can be great, life-changing and long lasting, and for many, too much to consider.
Yes, especially for those human beings that die because the "professional nurses" are acting so cowardly!  Not to mention how great, life-changing and long lasting it would be to grow up without a parent because "nurses" wouldn't offer assistance in emergency crisis situations. I'm certainly glad that the medical professionals I know would act very differently. | |
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jarmommy
AncestralPea
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January 2008
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 10:18:39 AM
I'm a paramedic and I practice under a doctor's license. I'm not covered by the Good Samaritan law because as a licensed professional, I "know better" due to my training and education. Will I stop at a car wreck, honestly, no because I'm not covered in the event that something I do causes greater harm to the victim. I will, and have, call 911. I'm also not covered by malpractice insurance when I'm off duty.
There is too much liability for me to act off duty and in the litigious society we live in I'm not about to put my neck on the line like that. Would I like to be able to help without that fear of being sued? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening any time soon. | |
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ginacivey
prey-sniffing bully
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March 2002
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Loc: Out in the boondocks
| Posted: 3/3/2013 10:22:46 AM
There is too much liability for me to act off duty and in the litigious society we live in I'm not about to put my neck on the line like that. Would I like to be able to help without that fear of being sued? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
exactly
don't blame the professionals
blame our society
gina | |
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happeawife
PeaAddict
PeaNut 107,627
September 2003
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Loc: the looney bin!
 | Posted: 3/3/2013 10:39:09 AM
What irritates me is she made the choice for others to not help the woman also. The 911 operator begged her to give the phone to a passerby or someone else who was willing to do CPR and she refused to let an untrained person help. Then when the operator told her she would talk them through it, she still refused. I believe that she went beyond the facilities no CPR policy for her as an employee. She even commented that they were in the dining hall so there may have been people around who might have wanted to help. |
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Maryland
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 87,597
May 2003
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 10:44:01 AM
I don't blame all of society, just those that sue over everything! I know more people that think such lawsuits are ridiculous than someone that would sue someone trying to save their life.
I think they need to change laws to protect professionals when they act as Good Samaratins. | |
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raindancer
Capt. Sparrow's Pirate Wench
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August 2005
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 10:50:01 AM
I worked in the medical field for many years. I used to be a paramedic. If someone collapsed in front of me today, depending on the situation, I may NOT do CPR. The save rate in the field is below one percent. Those that do come "back to life" can have significant complications. Doing CPR does not automatically mean someone is going to live and maintain a good quality of life after the fact. Unless you've been there to witness the aftermath of a CPR save that really isn't a "everything is back to normal and life is fine" save it is going to be difficult to understand the logic behind it.
So because you want to apply statistics to something you might just let someone die? Perhaps it is best that you used the past tense "worked".
You have no way of knowing the outcome. Or the aftermath or if that person would want to live with a slightly less than "normal" life, but live none the less. Good lord.
I'm a paramedic and I practice under a doctor's license. I'm not covered by the Good Samaritan law because as a licensed professional, I "know better" due to my training and education. Will I stop at a car wreck, honestly, no because I'm not covered in the event that something I do causes greater harm to the victim. I will, and have, call 911. I'm also not covered by malpractice insurance when I'm off duty.
There is too much liability for me to act off duty and in the litigious society we live in I'm not about to put my neck on the line like that. Would I like to be able to help without that fear of being sued? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
This just makes me angry. At those who sue, but also at those of you who could help but would rather let someone die than face potential litigation in your future.
"Oh, sorry you are dying, I would help you, but you might sue, so rather than that, I'll just cover my ass so you can't do that, don't worry, I have my cell phone, I'll give 911 a call real quick"
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
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Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 3/3/2013 10:57:32 AM
I need to Google the GSL. It's my understanding that it came about originally because a doctor stopped to assist a road accident victim. The patient died and the doctor got sued. I thought it was brought about specifically to cover trained medical personnel, and incidentally covered everyone else.
If residents/families signed an agreement with the facility to NOT provide CPR, doesn't that mean they basically agreed to a DNR? If so, the nurse did the right thing, despite our gut instinct to try and revive the patient.
Think of it this way.. how would you feel if your DNR elderly parent had CPR performed on them and was brought back to live a vegetative life. Despite a DNR being in place?
This is what happened to my mom. The ER doctor ignored the DNR and intubated her. This is so NOT what she ever wanted. It required we go through the painful process of having to get a court order to remove the tube. While our mom had made it very clear she did not want heroic intervention, and had taken all the right steps to make sure it didn't happen, we were forced to go to court over it. When that happens, the court appoints an attorney to argue for the patient, while your attorney argues to end her life. Despite the fact you KNOW what your aged parent wanted, it doesn't stop you from feeling like you're killing your mama. I have never, in my life, felt such blinding rage at another human being. She never regained consciousness, but was denied the dignified death she had wanted....it's been 5 years, and it STILL infuriates me. | |
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3kidmama
AncestralPea
PeaNut 268,201
July 2006
Posts: 4,918
Layouts: 8
Loc: Northwoods
| Posted: 3/3/2013 11:39:48 AM
There is LOTS of WRONG information on "Good Samaritan" laws on this thread. Good Samaritan laws DO cover health care workers - including nurses and doctors! Good Samaritan Laws
So PLEASE, heaven forbid it is one of your precious children, husband or parents injured out there - don't you want a fellow RN or MD to stop and help? And by all means PLEASE educated any co-workers who are saying they are not covered under Good Samaritan laws!  | |
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h*pea*ing
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 231,164
November 2005
Posts: 5,106
Layouts: 8
Loc: Midwest
| Posted: 3/3/2013 11:52:16 AM
This just makes me angry. At those who sue, but also at those of you who could help but would rather let someone die than face potential litigation in your future.
"Oh, sorry you are dying, I would help you, but you might sue, so rather than that, I'll just cover my ass so you can't do that, don't worry, I have my cell phone, I'll give 911 a call real quick"
Until you've been in a professional's situation and have the threat of being sued you aren't going to understand it that well. As stated above we are not protected by malpractice insurance. We are exposed wide open doing something off duty because we are trained and are supposed to know what's best. I'm not going to expose myself and the rest of my family to a lawsuit if I can help it. It is one thing to put a bandaid on someone's cut. Totally different thing to try and resuscitate a person that has coded. Until you've seen person after person "saved" by CPR that is now in an unrecoverable coma/vegetative state you aren't going to get it.
So many people think it is like TV when CPR is started right away and so many people live and make a full recovery. It is like that. Not even close. I've been in EMS for almost 20 years. I have NEVER had a successful back to a meaningful quality of life save. My mom has been in EMS for over 20 years. She hasn't had a good save either. I've done CPR on more people than I care to count and it sucks every single time because you, as the medical professional, know that it likely isn't going to work. I've also made the call in the field to NOT work someone because I knew it was too late to help. It is THE most difficult thing in the world to make that decision but you fall back on your medical training to help with that decision.
We may seem callous and uncaring to people outside of the medical community, but you need to protect you and your own first when off duty. |
~heather~
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**cindyupnorth**
Tony is MY hoochie!
PeaNut 3,902
April 2000
Posts: 24,263
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Loc: MN
 | Posted: 3/3/2013 12:03:00 PM
That article is very vague. First it's not like a SNF or an assisted living. It sounds like it's more of an apt complex attached to those facilities, which is becoming more the norm. 2ndly. I doubt this person was actually a "nurse". I would love to know what her actual qualifications are. Most of those places just have homemakers, or aides. Not even certified CNA's.
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theshyone
I'm Alive!
PeaNut 266,636
June 2006
Posts: 10,133
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Loc: Alberta
| Posted: 3/3/2013 12:06:53 PM
This just makes me sad.
I am not 100% the person I was prior to my two sudden cardiac arrests. And SUCCESSFUL resuscitation with CPR and AED. My quality of life is compromised.
BUT I am here to see my children grow up, my kids have Mommy ( different but still Mommy), my husband has his wife.
For a trained person to say they may not provide care because they want to play God sickens me. |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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August 2003
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 2:12:36 PM
While I disagree with the decision of the facility and professionals NOT to offer CPR in all cases, if it was stated in the contract that this was the policy I don't see how anyone could question the legality of it.
Exactly. If you want to rail against someone doing something "ridiculous", then maybe you should consider that they were foolish to sign on to the policy when they moved in.
I can understand why the facility might have that policy, though. CPR on an elderly person is a huge risk. First is the fact it may not 'bring them back' to a whole condition. Second is the fact that it may injure them severely. Mix chest compressions with osteoporosis and you've got someone with a lot of painful rehab to do if they make it back alive.
Now, a facility that is filled with elderly people with various physical conditions? You'd need to check their chart to see if there's a DNR, if there's a medical condition that makes CPR particularly problematic, etc. It's a big problem if a staff member in a panic reads the chart wrong.
I suspect those who are outraged at the facility policy are not that familiar with such facilities and the residents who populate them. As the child of parents who have spent years in elder care facilities with varying levels of care from assisted to skilled care, I can absolutely understand why a facility may have such a policy in place. Don't like it? Don't move grandma in there. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,538
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 3/3/2013 2:37:25 PM
Well, according to the article, and the statement offered by Jeffrey Toomer, the executive director of the facility. He confirmed the staff does not attempt CPR. In a statement, Toomer said, “In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community, our practice is to immediately call emergency personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives.â€
He didn't say anything about residents signing a contract, stating they understood that immediate assistance would not be offered, should they have a heart attack. I would think, if that was the case, he would have said so. Instead he said it was 'policy'
The woman did not have a DNR on file, so it would appear that the hospital has opened themselves up to a lawsuit...Of course there could be a lot of information that wasn't included in the article, but based on that alone, it looks like they didn't do anything to assist. I wonder whether the residents knew of their 'policy' | |
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PennyPaws
PeaAddict
PeaNut 551,978
April 2012
Posts: 1,417
Layouts: 59
Loc: Canada
 | Posted: 3/3/2013 2:52:09 PM
ETA:
While I disagree with the decision of the facility and professionals NOT to offer CPR in all cases, if it was stated in the contract that this was the policy I don't see how anyone could question the legality of it.
The facility's policy is legal, the worry is that there was a lack of understanding about the implications of that policy when the patient signed the agreement... A legal document, signed, notarised, etc, outlining end of life care is viewed a the final say - or usually is, by the patients, and certainly by first responders, hospitals, and doctors... It surprises most people that a document that binds medics, nurses, doctors, and hospitals, can be overwritten by one sentence in a facility's contract... A contract pages in length, written by lawyers, that the resident/patient usually looks over by themselves or perhaps with a family member... They assume the legal document they had their lawyer prepare will trump the contract, and the contract is for day to day services such as housing, food, cleaning, basic medical care, dispensing of medications... The awareness that the facility choice you make can alter every other legal document you created is scary... There needs to be more awareness of that...
Pt was a full code, moved into a facility whose policies prevented them from honouring her wishes... I think most people assume that the document they sign and submit to the facility overrides any facility policy, but that isn't the case... This is quite common and I personally have been in the same position, asking staff to go out on the street to find someone not affiliated with the faculty/bound by their policy, if there were any visitors, any trades working, and then asking if another elderly and ill resident was willing/able to help... And i can assure you these are real nurses - RNs, four year degree, and not RPN, aides, or untrained staff... (There is a horrible problem with elder abuse and apathy in those caring for the elderly, separate issue, but the numbness has caused many good and skilled nurses to burn out or make unbelievably bad assessments... Good geriatric nurses are a truly rare breed...) You can hear in the recording that this isn't the first time - the nurse is not panicked and in a calm, customer service, friendly voice says, "not at this time", when asked if she was willing to help the woman who was, "going to die otherwise." The fact that the dispatcher had so many ideas of people to suggest the nurse look for and approach to help the woman shows you that it's not the first time she's had to go through a list of who else might be around to help...
The patient's daughter is a nurse, and stated she was happy with the care her mother received... Likely no lawsuit...
It's sad, but some of the most important questions to ask facilities when deciding which one to choose are essentially a secret... Only those that work in the field know the loopholes... Hopefully this story makes people aware and ask more questions... Talk to a first responder, dispatcher, medic, triage nurse, and ask about their worst case scenarios or what they worry about when they get older... Their opinion will offer insight and hopefully give some good guidance... |
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,538
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 3/3/2013 2:52:48 PM
Here's another link to GSL, which differ from State to State. At this site you can check the laws for each individual State, to see which ones cover first responders (medically trained personnel), and to what extent they are covered.
GSL State by State | |
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PennyPaws
PeaAddict
PeaNut 551,978
April 2012
Posts: 1,417
Layouts: 59
Loc: Canada
| Posted: 3/3/2013 3:24:04 PM
We may seem callous and uncaring to people outside of the medical community, but you need to protect you and your own first when off duty.
Absolutely. I hope in my prior post it was clear, but if not I wanted to say it again... The policy is legal, it's not a scam or shady, it's just not something that people are aware of... The issue isn't the policy, it's if she had a true understanding of what the consequences of agreeing to the policy were... As I mentioned, I've been in that situation and you can tell that both the nurse and dispatcher on that call have too... The nurse is doing her job, and refusing to do CPR is part of her job and it is something the patient agreed to... The dispatcher is also doing her job - seeing if there's other options/people that can help... Both are frustrated, but they're both doing exactly their job... It's one of those situations where nothing wrong was done but it feels like something is wrong... Legally they did the right things, and morally as well - the patient signed a contract that stated she would not be given CPR... The true grey area is whether she understood which legal document trumped the other, if she was to suffer an emergency in the facility vs in public or a hospital...
The Pea who said as a worker you have to follow the rules laid out is absolutely right... It sounds cold and horrible, but you want someone who is trained and by the book looking after you... You don't want someone who cannot separate emotion from the task at hand - the flood of emotions can be powerful and you want someone who remembers their training, the rules and procedures, who is calculated and meticulous, and who does not take it upon themselves to make alternate decisions about your care when you have signed a document that outlines what care you will receive... The lesson is understand what you are signing - good care providers will stick to that document and you may not have the opportunity to change your mind about it...
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renee_elp
BucketHead
PeaNut 310,935
April 2007
Posts: 892
Layouts: 0
Loc: houston texas
| Posted: 3/3/2013 4:09:05 PM
Agree that CPR is not the miracle it's shown on TV.
When I called 911 for my husband, they talked me thorugh CPR. He had just stopped breathing and wasn't blue, but I did CPR.
When the EMTs arrived, they continued CPR and used the defib machine.
Got a heart beat but he never revived. Didn't stop the three days in the hospital waiting for his body to give up.
All because we didn't have his DNR form at hand when the EMTs came. | |
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PennyPaws
PeaAddict
PeaNut 551,978
April 2012
Posts: 1,417
Layouts: 59
Loc: Canada
| Posted: 3/3/2013 5:59:26 PM
Renee, I'm so sorry to hear about your experience... Regardless if the patient has a DNR or is a full code, I hate hearing that their last and perhaps most important wishes weren't/couldn't be honoured... I'm sorry for your loss... | |
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,538
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 3/3/2013 6:26:34 PM
The lesson is understand what you are signing - good care providers will stick to that document and you may not have the opportunity to change your mind about it...
Don't you think, that when it comes to a matter of life and death, the facility has some obligation make it clear as to exactly what their policies are?
When one is handed several pages of legal mumbo jumbo, and the person in charge says 'This is just a copy of the facilities policies, read it over and sign it', the average person just signs away. Usually at that time they're signing a bunch of documents, but in this case they're literally, initialing and signing their life away. Some how I think it's incumbent upon the facility to take a couple of minutes and explain they don't do CPR. That sort of thing shouldn't be a secret. In a legal sense, don't they have a 'duty of care' responsibility? | |
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PennyPaws
PeaAddict
PeaNut 551,978
April 2012
Posts: 1,417
Layouts: 59
Loc: Canada
| Posted: 3/3/2013 6:56:08 PM
I get what you're saying and I do think that the facilities should be more explicit about what exactly the consequences will be... But you're buying a product, just like booking a hotel, renting an apartment, etc... I think people also need to understand that just because it's a facility that provides care, they are not any different than any other business - they will establish policies that minimize their risk and liability, and will not likely sell you on the down side of their policies... There's huge room for improvement - and I personally hate the thought of anyone I care about going into a facility, for reasons like this and for other issues I've seen too much of... Changing the rules that the facilities have to follow when signing a contract with residents will take a long time - the politics, lobby groups, studies will have to be done, lawyers will be involved, etc... In the mean time, things like this are happening... An 'quicker' fix is getting the information out there to potential residents and their families, the issues to ask about, the questions that they need to ask, the things they need to consider, and that while it is nice to think that the people you are paying to care for you will care for you, at the end of the day you're buying a service and that's your power... You can decide what you want by where you buy...
Unfortunately the "duty to care" doesn't cover this... I know what you mean though... And I have a heart - I wish it wasn't like this, but until improvements can be made I think it's good to be blunt and 'cold' and say exactly what the possible consequences are...
A similar example, here anyways - laws/policies are different everywhere, is that if you fall on the grounds of a hospital but not inside one of the buildings... A driveway or sidewalk for example, the staff of the hospital are not permitted to carry you inside the hospital... They can provide first aid, assist/steady you if you can under your own power get yourself inside, but they cannot pick you up and carry you... Their policy is to call EMS... All about liability and who is trained and covered to do different tasks... Medics are trained and covered (both liability and Worker's Comp, so if the medic was to be injured while lifting the patient), while the nurse that works inside the hospital ER is not... It's part of how things work around here... Other places have their own little oddities too...
And while most people assume that someone would want everything done to save their life, there are many who do not want extraordinary measure taken... Depending on your own opinion it can be hard to see the other side, but it is just as painful to have someone worked on and go through a series of procedures and suffering when they wanted a different kind of death... This really needs to be a personal decision, and people need to continuously ask questions about how their requests will be handled and what they need to do to ensure their wishes are respected... Take time to read every part of a contract, ask questions about everything, and if you have specific wishes spend the time/money and confirm with a specialist (lawyer, paralegal, etc) that the contract does not contradict your wishes...
As a Canadian traveller, we have heath coverage in province but limited coverage when we travel so we're used to buying additional coverage... The paperwork for that is also very 'tricky' because it involved both medical and legal language... You are asked to list any "procedures" you have had... They define procedure in the information package, but at a first read most people feel they understand the questions because they understand the common definition of "procedure"... In the insurance documents, "procedure" also includes tests... So people do not list that they have had a ECG, after it was only a test and it came back normal, but if you fall ill and they find out you omitted something, your whole coverage is void... Best defence is getting the information out there - it works immediately, because waiting for the laws/insurance industry to change will lead to a lot of problems for a lot of people...
Sorry, got off on a tangent...  | |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,761
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 3/3/2013 7:07:50 PM
Don't you think, that when it comes to a matter of life and death, the facility has some obligation make it clear as to exactly what their policies are?
I'm sorry, I missed the part where we are told she had no idea that staff couldn't perform CPR, and that the facility couldn't be bothered to explain it in the eagerness to get the resident to sign and move in.
Just because the 911 dispatcher doesn't know the policy doesn't mean the residents are not fully aware of what they signed. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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moveablefeast
do justice, love mercy
PeaNut 265,707
June 2006
Posts: 11,126
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Loc: Northern Virginia
| Posted: 3/3/2013 7:11:58 PM
I have only one story of an actual person saved by CPR. My boss suffered a complete heart block last summer, no pulse or breath, and was saved by an MD who happened to be standing on the street my boss was walking down at that moment. She wears a pacemaker now but is alive to tell the tale. CPR saved her life. 100%. And a miracle, too. But part of that miracle was a doctor standing on the street at that moment, who performed CPR for HOURS, including at the hospital, before they got her heart beating on its own again.
This just makes me angry. At those who sue, but also at those of you who could help but would rather let someone die than face potential litigation in your future.
"Oh, sorry you are dying, I would help you, but you might sue, so rather than that, I'll just cover my ass so you can't do that, don't worry, I have my cell phone, I'll give 911 a call real quick"
Be real with me though - could you really, honestly and truly, open yourself up to the possibility of owing millions of dollars in damages, to even attempt to save someone's life?
That is one of the most difficult scenarios I can imagine. Ruin everything you have ever worked for by trying to help and failing and being sued - or live your life wondering if you could have saved someone's life.
I say that having been one to benefit personally from the miracle that was a person who was trained in, and performed, effective CPR. they saved the life of my role model and friend. It's a complex question.
There is a ton of confusion about the good Samaritan laws. In my state, one cannot be held liable for damages, and that includes those of us who are CPR certified, or health professionals acting off duty. But that is not true everywhere - there was a case in California while we were living there in which a man was sued after pulling a woman from a burning vehicle and "causing" her paralysis. I don't recall the award if there was one, but that makes people confused about what they should and shouldn't do. | |
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Katlaw
Send in the Monkeys!
PeaNut 86,755
May 2003
Posts: 6,556
Layouts: 20
Loc: Canada
| Posted: 3/3/2013 7:14:27 PM
The definition of Gross Negligence is "An indifference to, and a blatant violation of, a legal duty with respect to the rights of others."
While the ambulance is driving lights and sirens to the location the patient's brain is dying from lack of oxygen. She may not have been saved by CPR but the policies of this facility took away the only chance she had.Over 7 minutes of waiting to start CPR is a long time.
I have been the dispatcher on the phone asking the caller to help the patient. It is very frustrating.
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
Posts: 24,761
Layouts: 0
Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:15:34 PM
The definition of Gross Negligence is "An indifference to, and a blatant violation of, a legal duty with respect to the rights of others."
Is there a LEGAL obligation to provide medical care? |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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delilahtwo
BucketHead
PeaNut 249,970
February 2006
Posts: 608
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| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:16:23 PM
I work in a hospital on a medical floor and we have lots of elderly patients. It is not realistic to do CPR on an 87 year old person. Her ribs would be broken and possibly damage her lungs and heart.
You can't save everybody. You can cause a lot of harm trying. | |
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Designing
PeaFixture
PeaNut 57,490
December 2002
Posts: 3,897
Layouts: 116
Loc: Okmulgee, OK
| Posted: 3/3/2013 8:18:24 PM
My mother suffered MANY heart stoppages in the last year of her life. She had a DNR and still was literally brought back to life no less than 10 times in the year prior to her passing.
And by back to life, I mean she was walking, talking and doing as well as she could be doing with the multitude of medical issues she had which included a relatively rare disease which caused her sodium and potassium to deplete.
I am so very grateful to the hospital that gave her the chance to return to us for just a bit longer.
That having been said, on 5 January 2003 she collapsed and we were told that she had passed away. I called my sisters and brother and told them she was gone and then, fifteen minutes later they came out and said, "Oh, sorry, she is still alive but she has been without oxygen for fifteen minutes so if we do try to revive her, she will be a vegetable, what would you like us to do?"
As she had a DNR, my Dad and I told them NOT to resuscitate. She lived another 4 hours and finally passed at 6:05 a.m.
To say that I was angry is an understatement. I am certain MANY of you (if not all) know how difficult it is to tell family members that a loved one died but have you ANY idea how difficult it is to then call those same family members back and say, "Oh, btw, the doctors were wrong, she is not dead but has been without O2 for too long so she is GOING to die...at some point...probably today?"
It is absolute hell. It is hell for the caller AND the persons called.
And even still, while I understand that this nurse did what she was supposed to, the problem *I* have with this story is that she refused to pass the phone to anyone else. And THAT is cruel.
As to the litigious issues with the GSL or anything else, I am sorry, I am willing to walk into court and say that I tried to save x and was unsuccessful. If I get sued for millions, so be it. I will be at peace with my decision and my family would expect no less from me! |
"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher
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Katlaw
Send in the Monkeys!
PeaNut 86,755
May 2003
Posts: 6,556
Layouts: 20
Loc: Canada
| Posted: 3/3/2013 9:01:01 PM
Is there a LEGAL obligation to provide medical care?
There is not a legal obligation to provide medical care. But...this patient was in a home with a caller who identified herself as a nurse. (at least I believe that she did according to the news story)
The home admits their staff does not do CPR according to the executive director of the facility.
A layman's interpretation of gross negligence is did this person refuse to do what a normal person would be expected to do in this situation?
So would a nurse in another facility that provided the same type of care also refuse to do CPR? Refuse to get someone else on the phone who would do CPR? More than likely CPR would have been initiated in another similar facility.
I believe this facility has opened themselves up to a charge of gross negligence resulting in death. Her death may not have been preventable but by refusing to provide care that could have saved her life they have been negligent.
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ChildOfThe60s
Who has my six? Anyone??
PeaNut 3,009
February 2000
Posts: 16,477
Layouts: 27
Loc: the left side of the right coast
| Posted: 3/3/2013 9:18:04 PM
ITA w/ Heather.
So many people think it is like TV when CPR is started right away and so many people live and make a full recovery.
But wait. Crimes are solved in 47 minutes. People don't fully recover from near-death experiences and go home in that time frame IRL?!?!?  |
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,538
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 3/3/2013 9:19:59 PM
I'm sorry, I missed the part where we are told she had no idea that staff couldn't perform CPR, and that the facility couldn't be bothered to explain it in the eagerness to get the resident to sign and move in.
Just because the 911 dispatcher doesn't know the policy doesn't mean the residents are not fully aware of what they signed.
You must have missed it
The sentence you responded to was a continuation of an earlier post regarding a quote made by the facility's executive director. He said it was the policy of the facility to not render aid. I had also mentioned the woman did not have a DNR on file...but IF she knew about the policy, then it amounted to having signed a DNR. PennyPaws said policies were often not well explained, so I asked whether the facility had an obligation to made residents aware of the policy, especially when it came to life, or death policies....you really must try to keep up 
Anyway, it's kind of a moot point since I read somewhere else that the family did know of the policy, and they were fine with it.
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