I tip my hat to you Australia - Gun Control

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Posted 4/26/2013 by FrenchToast in NSBR Board
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dottyscrapper
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Posted: 4/29/2013 5:11:53 PM

But some other people have restraining orders against other people who are prone to violence. They don't have that luxury, and the only option they have to defend themselves is pepper spray because they live under gun control. So even if they wanted to adequately defend themselves, they can't because other people think they don't deserve it.


It's illegal to be in possession of or to use Pepper spray in the UK.

I always understood that in some states in the US there was regulations attached to the purchase of it too.



Krazyscrapper
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Posted: 4/29/2013 5:22:05 PM

So although the numbers are in dispute, there seems to be agreement that there are a significant number of defensive gun uses (DFU) documented. Even the lower number, 100,000 per year, is pretty interesting and should certainly figure in discussions of gun laws.



Lets see, according to the US Census Bureau in 2010 there are 117,538,000 households that have the average of 2.59 members. As of 2011 there are 311,591,917 people in the United States.

So however you slice and dice the 100,000 figure "of defensive gun uses" in the United States that is not even 1% of households or individuals. Its like .00001%. Figure in the discussion how?

Because of this unreasonable fear that "I need to protect myself so I must have a gun JUST IN CASE". There are thousands of innocent people being killed that has nothing to do with protecting themselves in their homes. These people are being killed in schools, on the street, at the job site, shopping centers and theaters. Wrong place at the wrong time. And I suspect the vast majority of these people have never even seen a real gun until it kills them.

As far as "outsiders" making comments about what goes on in our country. I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes you need an outsider to point out how stupid the country is behaving.

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TalissaAmity
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Posted: 4/29/2013 5:23:43 PM
Sylvia you stats are wrong. Australia didn't turn into the Wild West when we introduced strict gun control.

But I can say we have not had a mass shooting since it was introduced in 1996.


desertpea
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Posted: 4/29/2013 5:40:06 PM

While searching for official UK data for crime I came across this. Thought you might like to have a read and get some "facts" that Ben Swann quotes when he pertains that UK crime is higher than the US.


I think you missed the last page of the thread where we discussed statistics and surveys and all kinds of data points. Fact is that the UK crime rate -- non-comparatively -- went up since their big ole ban.

From the Daily Mail:



Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.


From politics.co.uk:


Despite the handguns ban imposed under the 1997 Firearms Amendment, research carried out following the implementation of the Act saw a 40 per cent increase in the number of gun crime incidents in the UK.


40% increase since the ban. And that is just gun crime. Violent crime overall went up as well. So what is your point exactly?


the thought of everyone being able to have guns based on those relatively few scenarios is horrific. It's not that I don't have sympathy for those in that situation but allowing guns as a response to it is insane.


Do you honestly want people to believe you are that naive? There are truly evil, disgusting individuals who don't really care about restraining orders and all that. As long as the abused is unable to defend herself, she makes a good target.

From the Tough Targets link above:


On March 3, 2007, 42-year-old Henry Watson ignored bystanders as he repeatedly stabbed his wife, Gracie Watson, and then poured gasoline on her. She was screaming for help while the customers from the surrounding stores were shouting at him and trying to distract him with their automobile horns. Before Henry could apply a lit match to Gracie, a man passing by drew his gun and threatened to shoot if the assault continued or if Henry ran. The rescuer was able to detain Watson until police officers arrived.

MS News Now





I think as hard as it is for non Americans to know how the thought of losing your right to have a gun feels, so it's equally hard for Americans to imagine how unthinkable it is to us (Brits, Aussies etc) that pretty much anyone could have a gun.


Misconception. Not just anyone can legally purchase a gun. We have a ton of restrictions on that. We'd really, really, really like to see those existing laws enforced.

desertpea
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Posted: 4/29/2013 5:45:25 PM

Sylvia you stats are wrong. Australia didn't turn into the Wild West when we introduced strict gun control.

But I can say we have not had a mass shooting since it was introduced in 1996.


You're right. But you all are stabbing the hell out of each other 30% more.

Are you all going to ban sharp knives?


I always understood that in some states in the US there was regulations attached to the purchase of it too.


So are you against victims of domestic violence defending themselves against their abusers or not? I'm real unclear on your opinion because you keep posting stuff unrelated to what is being discussed.

TalissaAmity
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Posted: 4/29/2013 6:32:53 PM
I wouldn't mind knowing where that statistic comes from? It doesn't ring true.

I know your question about banning knives was meant to be facetious, but the answer is yes.

We don't have to ban knives, they are already banned in that you cannot carry one outside your home without a lawful reason, ie it is required for employment. Self defense is not a lawful reason.




Enough
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Posted: 4/29/2013 6:43:06 PM

Sylvia you stats are wrong. Australia didn't turn into the Wild West when we introduced strict gun control.

But I can say we have not had a mass shooting since it was introduced in 1996.



You're right. But you all are stabbing the hell out of each other 30% more.

Are you all going to ban sharp knives?


That's what people don't seem to understand. It's not a GUN violence problem.
It's a violence problem.



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Posted: 4/29/2013 7:31:30 PM

We don't have to ban knives, they are already banned in that you cannot carry one outside your home without a lawful reason, ie it is required for employment. Self defense is not a lawful reason.


Wow!


--------------------
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Krazyscrapper
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Posted: 4/29/2013 7:51:27 PM
So you are saying with the violence problem we have that even if we take some guns off the streets and keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill we would still have the same level of violence we have today. There would be no reduction in the number deaths caused violence/guns? Really?

And your proof is what?

Darcy_Collins
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Posted: 4/29/2013 8:03:19 PM

So you are saying with the violence problem we have that even if we take some guns off the streets and keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill we would still have the same level of violence we have today. There would be no reduction in the number deaths caused violence/guns? Really?

And your proof is what?


Straw Man: : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted

dottyscrapper
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Posted: 4/29/2013 9:08:31 PM

I think you missed the last page of the thread where we discussed statistics and surveys and all kinds of data points. Fact is that the UK crime rate -- non-comparatively -- went up since their big ole ban.

From the Daily Mail:


No I didn't miss the statistics. Did you miss the post regarding the reliability of statistics as facts?

The report you've linked to from a journalist dated 2009....we're now 2013!
I'm not surprised that they could manipulate the figures. As I mentioned in a previous post the Firearms Act that came in 10 years earlier covered many new offences and even more with amendments to the act that were added in 2006 that were not classed as a crime previously but became so following the legislation that came into force at the time.
As an example of what was added in the 2006 amendment.... where on or after 6 April 2007, a person who is not a registered firearms dealer sells or transfers an air weapon or exposes an air weapon for sale or has in his possession for sale of transfer is committing an offence under the act. Air rifles were not included in the orginal act.Another that is classed as a criminal offence under the act is if you fail to notify a change of address on a legally held firearm ( farmers, hunters etc)
Saying that " Gun Crime" has risen is subjective if you don't have the factual data of each individual offence covered under the act.




Violent crime overall went up as well. So what is your point exactly?


Again, as in previous posts I'm not trying to PROVE anything apart from your inaccurate accounts of crime in other countries.

Do you not realize that such things as, amendment to legislation, changes in the way crime is recorded such as our violent crime definition compared to the US, re-classification of offences etc...all these things have to be looked at when you try to validate your argument against gun control by using other countries records to justify it.

I noticed that you conveniently didn't compare them to more up to date information that was further down the Politics.uk link........


Provisional figures show that 6,285 firearm offences were recorded by the police in the year to September 2011, accounting for 0.2% of all recorded crime. There was a 19% fall in firearm offences in the year to September 2011, compared to the previous year.

In England and Wales firearms were reportedly used in 11,227 offences, of all recorded crimes.
There were 7,024 offences in England and Wales in which firearms, 0.3% excluding air weapons, were reportedly used, a 13% decrease on the previous year, continuing the general decline since 2005/06.
There were 4,203 recorded crimes in which air weapons were reportedly used during 2010/11, a fall of 15% compared with the previous year and 70% below the peak recorded in 2002/03.


BTW that 0.3% would include imitation firearms.


edited to correct %


Scrapalotomous
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Posted: 4/29/2013 11:40:20 PM

Haven't violent crimes risen in Australia by about 40% since the gun ban?
With incidences of assault up by 50%, and incidences of rape up by 30%?
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.


According to the Australian Insitute of Criminology Link to PDF of statistics

Sexual assault in Australia has risen from a reported number of 14 542 in 1996 to 17 757 in 2010. Homicide has steadily decreased from 310 in 1996 to 260 in 2010.

ETA: Population of Australia in 1996 18.311 million. 2010 22.29 million.

Mrs T - I think your statement about not comprehending being able to defend yourself pretty well sums up the differences between our cultures. You view not being able to carry a weapon as an infringement on your rights to defend yourself. I can honestly say that I have never ever considered my rights to be compromised by the fact that by law I can not carry a knife, gun, pepperspray or whatever.



Sally

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Posted: 4/29/2013 11:47:38 PM

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.


I was responding to the quote made by Enough " Its not a GUN violence problem. Its a violence problem.

Violence and guns go hand and hand.

One would be pretty stupid not to understand a large % of the violence problemi is committed with guns. Get the guns off the streets and out of the hands of the mentally ill is a big start in reducing the "violence problem".

How about making the owners responible for thier actions of thier guns. Meaning if a mother lets her mentally ill son have access to her guns and he goes out and kills 20 6 year olds and 6 adults she should be held responsile as well. In this case, she paid the ultimate price for her folly in letting her son have access to her guns. He killed her. However if he hadn't then she should have been held responsible for the actions of her guns as she did not take proper care of the guns in her care, custody, and control.

Today I read that over 250,000 guns were stolen from people's homes every year. And that between between 25%-35% didn't even report their guns stolen.

Where do you think illegal guns come from? Yea I'm sure some are brought into this country, but I suspect we export more illegal guns then we import. I mean really where do you think illegal guns come from? If you believe what I read about stolen guns that is over 300K guns end up on the steet just from the theft of guns from people's homes. When the guns are stolen the owners say "its not my fault". Really? The hardest thing in your house to steal should be the guns. Again they didn't exercise proper care of the guns in thier care, custody, and control.

I supect some guns are sold to "casual" friends and has no idea what they are going to do with the guns. Say the gun is used to commit a murder and the previous owner says " not my fault I didn't know what he/she was going to do with gun when I sold it to him/her. Not my fault". Why not? Maybe if a background check was done before the gun was sold.

I'm sure there are other ways where "legal" guns become "illegal" guns.

Bottom line if there are less illegal guns on the street then there should be less violence. Less guns for both the "bad" guys and the mentally ill to get their hands on.

And I think if we hold gun owners responsible for the actions of thier guns, while they are in their care, custody, and control maybe they will be a little more careful with their actions. Whether its making sure the guns are secure enough they can't be stolen with out stealing the entire house and not letting someone have access to their guns they know have mental problems or have doubts about. Or selling the guns through a private sale to some person one knows nothing about without some sort of background check first.

People keep saying its the illegal guns that cause the problem not the guns owned by law abiding gun owners. That is true in most cases. But we need to address where illegal guns come from and stop it or at least slow it down to a trickle. And if its because law abiding gun owners don't exercise proper care, custody, and control of the guns then it needs to be addressed as well. And that is part of the gun debate. And always has been.

TalissaAmity
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Posted: 4/30/2013 1:30:40 AM
Mrs T you feel safe because you carry a knife as you wander through a crowd of people all possibly carrying knives and guns, whereas I feel safe because I walk through a crowd knowing that it would be the rare exception for one of them to be carrying a knife or gun.

Do you really carry a knife?

I just can't imagine a school teacher with young children pulling out a knife from her bag and stabbing someone.

I'm not saying Australia doesn't have a violence and alcohol problem, we do.

It's just that a person with a gun or knife is going to do a lot more damage to me than one without.

Did you see Scrapalotomous' stats.? In a county of just on 23 million people we had roughly 260 murders for the whole year for the whole country. Most of those murders too would have been by a family member, friend or acquaintance. Murders by random strangers are relatively uncommon.




gar
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Posted: 4/30/2013 2:12:01 AM

I'm shaking my head at the thought of not being able to carry anything to use as self defense. Wow. No pocket knives. No pepper spray.


And that incredulity is EXACTLY how I (and other non-Americans I suspect) feel in reverse. Defend myself against who? This constant state of readiness to be able to defend myself just isn't there, it doesn't enter my head, doesn't exist....I don't have to fear attack because no one else is armed with anything either.



I think as hard as it is for non Americans to know how the thought of losing your right to have a gun feels, so it's equally hard for Americans to imagine how unthinkable it is to us (Brits, Aussies etc) that pretty much anyone could have a gun.


Misconception. Not just anyone can legally purchase a gun. We have a ton of restrictions on that. We'd really, really, really like to see those existing laws enforced.


Deliberately or accidentally you missed the point. I said 'pretty much anyone' and the point was that you don't know who has or hasn't got guns on them as you go about your lives.


Do you honestly want people to believe you are that naive?


I'd rather be thought naive than rabid frankly.







Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


dottyscrapper
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Posted: 4/30/2013 5:02:35 AM

But what has me more baffled is why anyone would defend a country that strips them if their rights and makes the victim a criminal should they use something to defend themselves.


YOU are baffled? The irony of your accusation baffles ME even more!

Read and reflect on what you've posted Mrs T before you throw accusations at others regarding your interpretation of their country's laws.









desertpea
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Posted: 4/30/2013 5:48:01 AM

Do you not realize that such things as, amendment to legislation, changes in the way crime is recorded such as our violent crime definition compared to the US, re-classification of offences etc...all these things have to be looked at when you try to validate your argument against gun control by using other countries records to justify it.


You still are circumventing the issue. We aren't doing a comparison between the US and the UK crime stats. By how the UK calculates its own crime, it went up since the gun ban. Not compared to anyone else. Standing completely on its own.

That is the premise of your end of the debate -- you need to prove that a ban on guns decreases violent crime.

Let me help you out: Singapore has a complete ban on guns & a really low violent crime rate. However, they deter murder & other high crimes like drug trafficking with an automatic sentence of the death penalty. You don't get a trial by peers. You get one judge, and you don't sit around in prison for decades on end waiting to die either. There is no discrimination in capital punishment against foreigners. Hangings are every Friday. Most people heard of the infamous chewing gum penalties as well as their use of caning for lower offenses and in schools.

Capital and corporal punishment is a major Asian foundation in crime deterrence, and it is very, very unlikely they will ever move away from it.

You also can't freely assemble -- public gatherings of five or more people need a permit. You are highly, highly discouraged from having more than two children, especially in the lower classes. Unemployment is low, and there aren't any major government welfare programs that are comparable to the US approach. Only a few safety net programs exist (there are many private and religious ones), and it is considered to be shameful to be on them. Costs to set up a business and taxes are also comparably lower. They have a highly skilled workforce. It should surpass NYC as a major financial capital of the world within the next ten years or so.

And Singapore Airlines has hands down the best first class of any major airline.

So there is an example of a situation where gun control works, but it requires significant capital and corporal punishment under a system that restricts freedoms and very strict enforcement of laws. Being on an island with extremely limited natural resources and a population under 2.5 million also contributes.

gar
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Posted: 4/30/2013 5:49:21 AM

But what has me more baffled is why anyone would defend a country that strips them if their rights and makes the victim a criminal should they use something to defend themselves.


Honestly? You can't imagine defending your country despite it not being 100% perfect?

There's no need for feigned incredulity, we have problems, no denying it, and we're working to make things better. Sound familiar?








Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.


lynlam
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Posted: 4/30/2013 6:19:42 AM
"And automatically dismissing the opinions and experiences of other nationalities isn't just ignorant, it's arrogant. And we seem to have a way of letting those things impede rational discussion and compromise."
---------------

You call it ignorant, and I say it's irrelevant.

What I do call ignorant is automatically dismissing and ignoring the opinions of the brilliant men who founded this country because you (general you) somehow think They are irrelevant to our country today. If that is the case, then step away from the Internet, shut off your cell phone, and pick up your quill and parchment, because the 1st amendment was written at the same time as the 2nd, and if the 2nd only applies muskets, then the 1st only applies to quills.

I find it arrogant for foreign people to tell us how backwards and paranoid we are without understanding at all exactly WHY the 2nd amendment was written, and the relevance it holds in regards to protecting all the other rights we are constitutionally guaranteed. There are volumes of writings you are free to research before you go spouting off about how enlightened you are compared to us Neanderthals. And while we are at it, a majority of Americans need to do the same because they have a disturbing lack of understanding when it comes to their own rights as well.

It's not just about carrying a gun when you go shopping "just in case". It's about keeping the balance of power
Between we the people and them the government in tact, and being able to protect our constitution. Without the 2nd amendment, we are left defenseless against any form of tyranny that might rear its ugly head.

Other countries do not have the history that we do. Until you try to learn and understand our history, then you would do well to keep your opinions on our Rights to yourselves, but if you don't keep them to yourselves, then don't be offended by the anger coming from us silly Americans who are informed and passionate about that history and our rights guaranteed to us by those brilliant men many years ago.





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lynlam
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Posted: 4/30/2013 6:38:47 AM
"People like Lynlam that are more concerned about their precious guns, then the safety of our children. Disgusts me."
--------



And what is your opinion on armed personnel in your kids schools? Hell no, is my guess. Am i right?
So you my dear, you are more concerned with your precious "gun free zones" and your irrational fear of lawful weapons than you are the actual safety of any child in this country. You are far more worried about taking away my rights than you are actually protecting a single child from any harm. That disgusts me.

As to my earlier comment...I will gladly repeat it. Don't like it? Tough. The 2nd amendment (or any of them for that matter) is NOT subject to change based on the whims of any single person, nor any group. Even if the Presidents totally fabricated "90%" of Americans wanted more gun control, it should not matter because that gives no one the right to infringe on MY constitutional rights. So, if you want to live somewhere where guns are outlawed, then move there. If you don't want to be exposed to a place where there might be guns, them don't go there. It's pretty damn simple.

So call me assholian all you want, but I am just being direct. I have given a plethora of facts on thread after thread. Apparently very few have bothered to read, because they are only interested in opinions that align with their own views and not interested in facts that challenge those views. So I am done arguing with people willfully ignorant of gun laws.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

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ihearth
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Posted: 4/30/2013 8:05:07 PM
Here's an example of when it worked:
LINK

jodster70
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Posted: 4/30/2013 8:10:46 PM
Wow. I had no idea about the bans of knives & pepper spray in the UK & Australia.

If that makes the Australians & Brits feel safer, great. Personally, I want the freedom to carry those things even more than I want to use them for safety. (I carry a small key that turns into a small knife, screw driver, etc. I use it primarily to open mail. Otherwise, I've never carried any kind of weapon.)

For me, it's totally a freedom thing. I would love to spend a few months in the UK, but my thinking is obviously too different from the Brits' thinking to live there permanently.



**Jody**

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desertpea
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Posted: 4/30/2013 8:28:54 PM

Here's an example of when it worked



You realize people who are anti-civil rights think the person with the gun who stopped a mass murderer is the criminal, right?


TalissaAmity
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Posted: 4/30/2013 9:37:24 PM
Similarly if the people who offer the world the hideousness of a mass shooting didn't have a gun the result would be much better.

TalissaAmity
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Posted: 4/30/2013 9:41:55 PM
Mrs T you want the right to carry a gun, I want the right to walk in a society free of guns.

missbitts
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Posted: 4/30/2013 9:51:27 PM

Mrs T you want the right to carry a gun, I want the right to walk in a society free of guns.


Win-win. You both have what you want in the country in which you want it.

jennyap
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Posted: 5/1/2013 5:00:03 AM

Despite the handguns ban imposed under the 1997 Firearms Amendment, research carried out following the implementation of the Act saw a 40 per cent increase in the number of gun crime incidents in the UK.



By how the UK calculates its own crime, it went up since the gun ban. Not compared to anyone else


For one thing, there is a significant difference between firearm offences (the 40% increase) and offences in which a firearm was used. The former includes anything that contravenes the new law that was imposed, including simple possession of a handgun. It stands to reason that introducing new types of offences into a certain category will at least in the short term increase the number of offenses in that category. The only way to do a like for like comparison before and after the ban is to examine the number of offences since the ban that relate to only those things that were an offence before the ban, and I am not aware if those stats exist.

Second, but still on firearms offences, from the same source you used, politics.co.uk:

Provisional figures show that 6,285 firearm offences were recorded by the police in the year to September 2011, accounting for 0.2% of all recorded crime. There was a 19% fall in firearm offences in the year to September 2011, compared to the previous year


Sticking with that same source, but turning to the more significant issue, offences in which a firearm was used:

There were 7,024 offences in England and Wales in which firearms, excluding air weapons, were reportedly used, a 13% decrease on the previous year, continuing the general decline since 2005/06.

Of those offences, 29% were criminal damage ie not against persons. 23% were with imitation weapons. A firearm was actually fired in 37%.

The Independent tells us that in the following year to all the above, 5,911 firearms offences were recorded, a further reduction of 6%.

And The Washington Post explains that as you say gun crime did go up immediately after the ban, but since enforcement has been tightened up that trend has been reversed and it has been declining since 2005. In 15 years,

more than 200,000 guns and 700 tons of ammunition have been taken off the streets
and

Today, law enforcement officials say ballistic tests indicate that most gun crime in Britain can be traced back to fewer than 1,000 illegal weapons still in circulation.



On the issue of knives,


I have a Swiss Army knife with a little multi tool on it, but I do not keep it on me at all times. I can't have it in my school so I don't always have it with me. And when i do it's not simply for self protection, it comes in handy for other situations. My husband does carry a small pocket knife.


I carry a small key that turns into a small knife, screw driver, etc

You would be permitted to carry all of these in the UK.


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StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/1/2013 2:53:54 PM

But just having the right to own one is important to me and knowing should I ever, heaven forbid, have to use it to protect myself or my family, I can do so knowing I won't be considered the criminal.



So which denomination of Christianity do you follow that disregards the 6th Commandment then Mrs T, if as you say, you are prepared to use that gun?








Cariad12000
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Posted: 5/1/2013 4:50:46 PM
There's no real point in using a tit for tat argument for justifying guns, or any other weapon. If there is a 40% increase in gun crime in the UK its gone up to 8 (EIGHT) people dying from gun crime in the UK last year. I wont compare it with the USA numbers, that would be a tit for tat argument.

Lets be honest, no country is crime free nor will they ever be but something must have to change to reduce crime. All crime should be unacceptable. A lot of countries are trying to make changes to reduce those gun and knife crimes as well as all other crimes. Some countries like Australia have reduced gun crime so they have proved it is possible. The most recent report on the news was violent crimes in the UK and some European countries are falling.

Examples can be made for guns causing and preventing crimes but I fail to see how the freely availability of guns is going to prevent more crimes than they cause. If guns prevent gun crimes I think the 30,000+ people that died from guns, last year, wouldn't agree.

Looking at things from outside the USA, I see people living in what seems to be constant fear. They carry guns because they feel they have to defend themselves against others who carry guns. The others carry guns to protect themselves against you because you carry guns and so the circle carries on.

Some carry guns because criminals use guns... if guns were not so available how many of those criminals would be so bold if they weren't armed? Yes some hardened criminals might, but many others wouldn't be so confident without a gun and not end up killing someone.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I was struck strongly by the fear many of you seem to live under. This was highlighted by a few people but one in particular was the post from someone who had such fear of crime that they felt HAD to carry something for self defense (gun, knife pepper spray). Ask yourself, what kind of society do you live in when you live your daily life with such fear like that? Are crimes so bad in the USA that you think its highly likely something bad will happen to you? From where did this atmosphere of fear originate?

I mentioned in another thread where my cousin's American friend came to visit her in the UK. The friend was so scared of being attacked she wouldn't take public transport, wouldn't use a cab for fear of being kidnapped. Wouldn't sit outside for fear of being shot by terrorists. She spent her vacation virtually housebound out of fear. I'm surprised she got on a plane, she must have been scared it would blow up. How sad is that... living her life in such fear?

I live in the UK and I definitely live my life without fear of being shot or stabbed. Last year, 8 people died from gun crime in the UK so the probability of me being shot in any way is highly unlikely. Even if someone broke into my home I would be pretty sure they were not going to shoot me so I don't have the same fear you in the USA have.

I'm happy to travel around the country on my own, on foot, trains, buses or any other transport. I feel relatively safe in my daily living. I don't feel the need to carry any kind of weapon or item to defend myself. Yes, I do take some precautions occasionally like not walking down dark roads, on my own, late at night, but that's about it.

That's the difference of a gun society and a no gun society.


CARIAD

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Enough
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/1/2013 5:56:07 PM

Looking at things from outside the USA, I see people living in what seems to be constant fear. They carry guns because they feel they have to defend themselves against others who carry guns. The others carry guns to protect themselves against you because you carry guns and so the circle carries on. That isn't what's happening.

Some carry guns because criminals use guns... if guns were not so available how many of those criminals would be so bold if they weren't armed? Yes some hardened criminals might, but many others wouldn't be so confident without a gun and not end up killing someone. What makes you think that someone with a mind to commit a crime is going to suddenly obey a gun law and forgo the gun while he commits a crime?

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I was struck strongly by the fear many of you seem to live under. This was highlighted by a few people but one in particular was the post from someone who had such fear of crime that they felt HAD to carry something for self defense (gun, knife pepper spray). Ask yourself, what kind of society do you live in when you live your daily life with such fear like that? Are crimes so bad in the USA that you think its highly likely something bad will happen to you? From where did this atmosphere of fear originate? I responded to you in the other post before you wrote this, but I'll say it again. Having a gun for protection is not anymore about "living in fear" of a crime, than having a fire extinguisher in your kitchen is about living in fear of your house burning down.

I mentioned in another thread where my cousin's American friend came to visit her in the UK. The friend was so scared of being attacked she wouldn't take public transport, wouldn't use a cab for fear of being kidnapped. Wouldn't sit outside for fear of being shot by terrorists. She spent her vacation virtually housebound out of fear. I'm surprised she got on a plane, she must have been scared it would blow up. How sad is that... living her life in such fear? That sounds like a phobia, which is an anxiety disorder. It isn't how the rest of us live.

I live in the UK and I definitely live my life without fear of being shot or stabbed. So do we over here in the US Last year, 8 people died from gun crime in the UK so the probability of me being shot in any way is highly unlikely. Even if someone broke into my home I would be pretty sure they were not going to shoot me so I don't have the same fear you in the USA have. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to burn the house down when I make dinner, but I still have a couple of fire extinguishers at the ready.

I'm happy to travel around the country on my own, on foot, trains, buses or any other transport. I feel relatively safe in my daily living. So do we over here in the US. I don't feel the need to carry any kind of weapon or item to defend myself. Yes, I do take some precautions occasionally like not walking down dark roads, on my own, late at night, but that's about it. Good idea because, as we all know, that's the ONLY place and time that crime happens. So if you just stay out of those situations, you won't have any NEED to defend yourself. Good plan.




gottapeanow
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Posted: 5/1/2013 8:01:04 PM

So which denomination of Christianity do you follow that disregards the 6th Commandment then Mrs T, if as you say, you are prepared to use that gun?


Really?

Now we go from discussing gun control to religion in the same breath. SMH.

Lisa

TalissaAmity
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Posted: 5/1/2013 8:20:34 PM
It's not a crime to own a gun in Australia Mrs T, you are wrong there.

We just have much stricter gun control laws.

I know my society isn't gun free, just my chance of being shot on the street is significantly reduced.
Again , a population of 23 million people, gun deaths for the whole country for the whole year less than 250 (including accidents).

So you aren't actually carrying a gun in the streets? You carry a small pocket knife. What are you going to do when confronted by someone with a gun? I don't see that you realistically have much chance. You may feel safer carrying your little pocket knife, I seriously doubt that you are.


dottyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/2/2013 7:27:55 PM

Really?

Now we go from discussing gun control to religion in the same breath. SMH.



You should read the question in the context it was asked.


But just having the right to own one is important to me and knowing should I ever, heaven forbid, have to use it to protect myself or my family, I can do so knowing I won't be considered the criminal.




So which denomination of Christianity do you follow that disregards the 6th Commandment then Mrs T, if as you say, you are prepared to use that gun?






Seems she's run out of all the other "logical" arguments.



No not at all. I have, as others have, many logical reasons but you chose not to listen to logic or anyone else's point of view. Other countries have living proof that gun control works.


jodster70
To the right, To the right

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Posted: 5/2/2013 7:57:07 PM

No not at all. I have, as others have, many logical reasons but you chose not to listen to logic or anyone else's point of view. Other countries have living proof that gun control works.


I respect your point of view, dottyscrapper, and I'm glad you're happy with it in the UK. However, your laws would not work here. Yes, there are some who agree with you, but there are just as many or more that do not.

Our beliefs and traditions are different. Our Second Amendment has been around for 200+ years, and the right to keep and bear arms has been passed down from generation to generation. People in the US are not going to allow the kind of restrictions they have in the UK and other places. They're just not.

I grew up in Texas, and quite simply, I could not even remotely imagine the people there allowing the government to do what the government did in Australia.

My own mom collected guns until she died. She loved them, and could tell you the history of each one. She was the one of the kindest, sweetest people I've ever known, but she loved guns. I will never agree with guns being taken away from law-abiding citizens like my mom.


**Jody**

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
Patrick Henry

dottyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/2/2013 8:01:03 PM

And so now that I have pointed out the misinterpretation of Scripture


YOUR interpretation of scriptures doesn't mean it's someone else's misinterpretation.


I don't see any proof from your country that gun control works to prevent violence in our country.


No one has ever suggested that it would prevent violence in the US, what a stupid statement to make and you accuse me of being illogic



But the US is different


Yeh, no kidding it is !



BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 5/2/2013 8:20:18 PM


I've been thinking exactly this for a long time. I think it should be revisited.

I am a US citizen and I think that it the second amendment should be revisited .




I agree with this. I haven't read the whole thread through yet, but there are FAR too many deaths by guns lately, and far too many massacres here in the U.S. It's becoming commonplace to have a family member be shot or murdered by a gun or at least know someone who has been shot or murdered. IT'S TOO COMMONPLACE. I'd do anything to change it, even have some of my rights as a U.S. citizen be taken away at this point.









BergdorfBlonde
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Posted: 5/2/2013 8:20:30 PM


I've been thinking exactly this for a long time. I think it should be revisited.

I am a US citizen and I think that it the second amendment should be revisited .




I agree with this. I haven't read the whole thread through yet, but there are FAR too many deaths by guns lately, and far too many massacres here in the U.S. It's becoming commonplace to have a family member be shot or murdered by a gun or at least know someone who has been shot or murdered. IT'S TOO COMMONPLACE. I'd do anything to change it, even have some of my rights as a U.S. citizen be taken away at this point.









lucyg819
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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:44:16 PM

Just ask Chicago and Washington DC.

It makes me really sad and mad that this constantly comes up in each gun thread. I keep repeating, and you (general anti-gun-control you) keep ignoring, that Chicago and DC do not exist in a vacuum. If you can waltz into the next city or the next state to get your guns, then of course the stricter laws in those big cities aren't really going to work the way they're meant to.

Quit blaming the gun control laws for problems that are beyond their scope to fix. Institute the same rules nationwide and watch things start to change.

(Yes, yes, I get it, you don't want to institute the laws. Fine. Just stop claiming gun control doesn't work. It does work when it's universal throughout a country ... and actually enforced.)


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

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Posted: 5/2/2013 10:49:12 PM

I don't see any proof from your country that gun control works to prevent violence in our country.

There are your words, Mrs. T. If you weren't trying to say that gun control in the UK hasn't reduced gun violence in the U.S., maybe you should have worded it differently. I read it before I saw dottyscrapper's response and interpreted your statement the same way she did. It left me scratching my head.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



Krazyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/2/2013 11:21:00 PM

Lucy, even if the entire US had those same laws, we still share a very insecure border with a country that will flood the market with guns in every way that they can. It will cause a huge black market for gun sales all of them unregistered and illegal. THAT is what is far scarier


What guns coming from Canada? Because you certainly don't mean the guns would be coming from Mexico do you? Aren't we sending guns to Mexico? Illegally of course. And didn't the President of Mexico once ask Bush to stop the flow of guns from the US to Mexico? What is Mexico going to do ship the guns back?

*Erin
triathlon pea

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Posted: 5/3/2013 12:06:14 AM

No, it's not MY interpretation of scripture at all. It's the literal translation from the original text. The word MURDER is used. Not the word KILL. There's a big difference between an individual's interpretation of Scripture vs a literal word for word translation from the original Hebrew and Greek text. SO yes, in this case, you are using your own misunderstanding of the original text in Scripture to try to paint me as a hypocrite Christian. FAIL.
The words weren't written down as they were spoken--surely you know that. They were passed down orally for ages before the words landed on paper. It's like the oldest game of telephone in history. Clinging to words (whether Hebrew or Greek) finally written down after decades of oral transmission isn't very logical.



ePEAcenter
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Posted: 5/3/2013 2:42:09 AM

The words weren't written down as they were spoken--surely you know that. They were passed down orally for ages before the words landed on paper. It's like the oldest game of telephone in history. Clinging to words (whether Hebrew or Greek) finally written down after decades of oral transmission isn't very logical.


Many evangelical Christian faiths believe that the Scripture is the inspired word of God. 2 Tim 3:16 refers to all scripture as "God-breathed" in the NIV.

Most New Testament scripture are actual letters written by apostles to individuals or groups of Christ followers. They were penned in Greek, the primary language of their surroundings at the time.

*Erin
triathlon pea

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Posted: 5/3/2013 5:55:59 AM

Many evangelical Christian faiths believe that the Scripture is the inspired word of God. 2 Tim 3:16 refers to all scripture as "God-breathed" in the NIV.
I understand that, but that would make it an interpretation of the evangelical faith.



lynlam
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Posted: 5/3/2013 6:04:51 AM
"Quit blaming the gun control laws for problems that are beyond their scope to fix. Institute the same rules nationwide and watch things start to change. "
--------

Sigh. I swore I was done...

I agree - stop blaming gun control laws for something that is beyond their control to fix. We need crime control. Adding more gun control laws to fix something gun control laws have been unable to fix is the height of stupidity.

Yes, things would start to change...the entire country would become Chicago and DC.

No one who is using guns to kill, rob and maim just "waltzes" across the border and buys one. They want no way to trace their purchase (and yes, it is possible to trace a gun, albeit difficult...as it should be) and get real- do you think they are really BUYING their guns legally? Even if they are eligble? No. They are buying them from other hoodlums or stealing them. No gun control law that you can devise will ever ever stop that. You will only further disarm good people who have the god given right to defend their lives and their families.

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.

What I will guarantee you is if it ever comes to that- a full ban- you will be responsible for untold deaths of innocent people and law enforcement personnel. Mark my words.





"We demand entire freedom of action and then expect the government in some miraculous way to save us from the consequences of our own acts... Self-government means self-reliance." Calvin Coolidge

Lynlam, the second-tier Pea, paid (except it appears she is not) political shill.
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lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker

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Posted: 5/3/2013 10:07:58 AM

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.

No. I will not admit any such thing. I am a gun owner.

You do sound like a complete drama queen when you insist that anyone who wants more controls on the kinds of weapons out there and who gets their hands on them really just wants to ban all guns and watch babies die.


LUCYG
northern california

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell



Dalai Mama
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Posted: 5/3/2013 10:16:32 AM

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.
Wrong. We do not have a complete ban here and I'm a-okay with that.


Jo Mama

***********************************

Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. - Bruce Cockburn

The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams


Krazyscrapper
StuckOnPeas

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Posted: 5/3/2013 10:39:04 AM

What I will guarantee you is if it ever comes to that- a full ban- you will be responsible for untold deaths of innocent people and law enforcement personnel. Mark my words.


"Mark my words".... For heaven sakes get a grip. You know why back when naysayers kept telling early explorers that if they got in their ships and sailed off they would fall off the earth because it was flat. Good thing the early explorers didn't listen to the naysayers.

I don't expect all guns to be banned as much as I want it to happen. But there needs to be some controls and if means tweaking the 2nd amendment then so be it.

scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

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Posted: 5/3/2013 10:48:46 AM

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.

What I will guarantee you is if it ever comes to that- a full ban- you will be responsible for untold deaths of innocent people and law enforcement personnel. Mark my words.


You have gone off the deep end.....



lovetodigi
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

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Posted: 5/3/2013 12:08:08 PM

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.

What I will guarantee you is if it ever comes to that- a full ban- you will be responsible for untold deaths of innocent people and law enforcement personnel. Mark my words.
That's a triple






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gar
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Posted: 5/3/2013 12:11:37 PM

So, just admit it all of you. Most of You (general you) claim to be against a complete ban. But you are being completely dishonest. Once you get your next level of fun control, and that once again fails to solve the violence problem, well then darn it, you will just have to throw in the towel and just ban guns all together. That is your ultimate goal. Stop hiding it. We aren't stupid and we aren't falling for your shtick.


Ooops, your paranoia is showing.





Today, I will be colouring outside the lines.

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