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Posted 4/9/2014 by Jane71 in NSBR Board
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Jane71
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Posted: 4/9/2014 3:04:05 AM
I don't know why I am bothered by this, but I think their courtship stuff is just whacky and so flipping weird. I have always enjoyed them and think they are an interesting family. However, side hugs, no kissing, sharing everything with your parents I don't know it just seems weird. I figured one of those kids would end up doing their own thing but I think they will all go down this very strange path.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 6:40:41 AM
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Posted: 4/9/2014 7:26:46 AM
Agreed. Those kids don't have a chance of being individuals. Everything has to be lockstep with everyone else. Anytime they come up all I hear is "One of us. One of us. One of us." There is no breaking free and doing what you want, particularly if you're a girl. You're dominated by your father from birth to marriage and then dominated by your husband from marriage to death. It's a bleak lifestyle.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 7:52:54 AM
I just can't decide how I feel about the Duggars.

Part of me thinks their lifestyle is nuts and it's certainly not how I would choose to live.

On the other hand, these people never seem stressed out or overwhelmed or unhappy and they don't seem to argue or snap at one another. I know that it's a tv show, but surely if there were things like that happening, someone, somewhere would be talking about it. But there is just no mention of there ever being issues like most of us deal with in our day to day lives. I have to admire that.


sharing everything with your parents I don't know it just seems weird

This seems the strangest to me! Like anyone going into a marriage, they need to develop a relationship based on the two of them, not the two of them and their parents. Mom and Dad aren't deeply involved in the relationship once they are married, right?

Like I said, I find it weird. But then I also think that they are happy, so who am I to judge? I find it fascinating to watch unfold though.

Another thing about them that does royally chap my hide is their reason for doing the show in the first place.

I completely understand their reason for choosing to not watch tv. They feel it's full of bad things (and it can be) and that it's a temptation (and I agree, it can be).

But if they feel television, as a whole, is so bad, why is it ok for them to make a financial gain from it? In the Bible it says we should not do things that could cause others to be tempted and by having this tv show, they are leading people to watch the dreadful box of sin. (<--My words said very tongue in cheek there. )

(Luke 17:1-3 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves."

I would love to know how the Duggars feel about that particular verse and their justification for doing the show.


-Angela

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Posted: 4/9/2014 8:38:09 AM
So...after the weird courtship and they decide to get married..I have always wondered if they are encouraged to have kid after kid or is this just something the Duggar's (parents)wanted to do.

I don't watch the show but have seen them on the Today show, etc. As well as seeing the promos about every 5 minutes on TLC.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 8:49:08 AM
If courtship ends in marriage, then the parents are out of it, except to offer advice when requested. Leave and Cleave, is the verse referred to. "For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife...".

Up to that point, the parents are involved for several reasons: to set an example of what a healthy relationship looks like and help these newbies create one, to give them an opportunity to steer clear of temptation, and to get to know the guy that's potentially going to marry their daughter and see if a wiser, older eye can spot things that maybe a younger, starry-eyed girl can't see.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 8:51:51 AM
I particularly love how Michelle teases her daughters with, "You can't do this and you can't do that." What is wrong with that woman???

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 8:55:30 AM
I watched the show last night, and I didn't see her tease her daughter at all. What she said was that they love to hug and kiss, and they're showing their children that there is a great side to marriage(ie physical affection/sex, if you heard Jim Bob's "does that turn you on?" comment) They're just saying there's something to look forward to, and that there's no shame in enjoying that.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 8:58:32 AM
I'm only slightly familiar with the show. (I've seen excerpts.) Are they just an unusual family in size and beliefs, or are they part of a specific religious group that adheres to these kinds of philosophies?

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:08:47 AM

I completely understand their reason for choosing to not have a tv. They feel it's full of bad things (and it can be) and that it's a temptation (and I agree, it can be).

But if they feel television, as a whole, is so bad, why is it ok for them to make a financial gain from it? In the Bible it says we should not do things that could cause other Christians to be tempted and by having this tv show, they are leading people to watch the dreadful box of sin. (<--My words said very tongue in cheek there. )

(Luke 17:1-3 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves."

I would love to know how the Duggars feel about that particular verse and their justification for doing the show.


Obviously, I don't know them personally, but I know lots of families like them, and can guess at this, if you like.

I think there would be two schools of thought here:

First is that they have deemed it to be a stumbling stone for themselves, but they recognize it is not that way for everyone, nor would they foist their opinion on everyone.

Second, there is good to be accomplished by sharing their beliefs via this medium. They obviously know they're in the minority by not watching TV, but if the greater majority DOES watch TV, then their show is maybe a healthy alternative (in their opinion) and they could possibly inspire others by their example.

Just a guess.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:10:49 AM

, and I didn't see her tease her daughter at all.

Him lifting her up and spinning her around in the air while on a mini golf course while chanting in a sing-song voice, "You can't do thissss...."(I believe it was a mini golf course; I haven't watched the episode, just saw the previews).


-Angela

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:23:35 AM
I watched the show and didn't see that. I was pretty sure I watched the whole thing. They talked about the subject, and then at the golf course the footage was of them asking the kids what boundaries they decided to set. Maybe I got distracted? But I swear I didn't see that.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:31:29 AM
It was featured in the annoying promos for the season premiere. Every time I heard that screechy sing song voice I felt an unexpected swell of desire to commit violence. So annoying.

ravenmist23
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:33:14 AM
The Duggars are part of The Quiverfull Movement which espouses having as many children - or quivers - in order to combate the eroding morality of modern times.

Read more here: Quiverfull

It's a fascinating movement from a purely sociological perspective, but it's also a cultish movement promoted by Bill Gothard.

Bill Gothard

You can also google Gothard and get a wealth of information about his beliefs, practices, and the controversies around the movement.

It's very anti-woman and anti-advanced education for either men or women.

I think the Duggars feel they are doing the best for their children, but are honestly hurting them immensely.


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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:35:08 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Duggars. Not sure how to feel about them really. Part of me wonders if these girls are limited in many ways and pressured to conform to a certain way. I know that I couldn't live their life. But there's another part of me that on the occasion I watch the show that says these people look happy. And really, that's the key to life is to be happy. So if they are happy choosing that lifestyle then power to them. If they are being coerced into it, then that's not good.

One thing, though, I would not want my first kiss with my boyfriend to be on my wedding day in front of everyone. That just seems like it's too intimate to share with everyone the first time. I don't know. There's something special about it being a private moment between the two of you.

Jane71
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:38:50 AM
If I remember Michelle said she likes to tease her kids with you can't do this or that UNTIL you are married. I think they will all have kid after kid, part of their beliefs. Why does infertility never strike these type of folks? They do seem happy and well adjusted, but so naïve. I can't imagine not kissing my husband until our wedding day. Young love and heartbreak is important in our development I think. I just don't see how you can have a good marriage without good physical stuff (not necessarily sex) and just can't imagine not kissing, holding hands, true hugging etc.. It also bugs me that Jim Bob and Michelle did not seem to be as involved in Josh's courtship but maybe they just did not show that. I get a little creeped out by Jim Bob with his daughters, not sure why but I do.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:41:57 AM

It's very anti-woman and anti-advanced education for either men or women.



Having been in it for several years, I don't agree with this at all.

They promote DIFFERENT educational paths, because of the teachings that are so anti-scriptural at most universities. But it is NOT anti-education. Just the opposite. They've established their own law program (that many girls are in), a paramilitary program, a writer's program, lots of individualized things that meet the needs and teach the skills without having to go to college. They really promote apprenticeship programs of all kinds as the way to go.

I'm no Gothard fan today, but it really bugs me when misinformation is offered as truth.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:47:02 AM
Those Dugger girls better have strong uteruses, or is it uteri?

shescrafty2
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:48:45 AM
I don't get why they can't hold hands-I remember the oldest son was allowed to dot hat because it looked like hand sex. I just don't get why they would impose such strict standards for their children (like not being alone ever and no kissing) that they themselves did not have to adhere too. It seems very hypocritical to me that they are putting such restrictions on their children. It seems like they don't want them to realize if they really like the other person or not because it becomes all about what they can't have before they're married.


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ctab
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:49:35 AM
While they agree with some things in the quiverful movement Michelle has said several times that they do not identify as quiverful.

Courtship as opposed to dating is very big in various Christain circles, and for many includes waiting for their first kiss until marriage. You have chaperones to keep temptation at bay, and to not get tied up into the physical attraction part of a relationship. You can read books like I Kissed Dating Goodbye to get a better idea of the hows and whys. I imagine the amount of parent involvement varies by family, and is probably increased with the Duggars because of the show.

While this isn't how I live my life I respect the high care they give to courtship and marriage.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:50:40 AM
Jim Bob asked the daughter and her boyfriend what their decision was about holding hands. He didn't say they couldn't do it, he was just asking about their thoughts. The boyfriend offered that they would leave that option open for the future. Smart kid.


~ Tracey

ctab
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:52:07 AM
Also, we only saw Josh's courtship after he got engaged.

Even Jim Bob seemed a little surprised that they wouldn't hold hands until later, and the boy said they would rethink that one down the line just not for right now.

GaJenny
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:56:26 AM
I don't watch their show (and haven't for years) and I could never live their lifestyle or encourage my children to live that lifestyle, but I think they're doing a much better job raising their children than many other TV parents. You're not going to see a Duggar on the cover of the tabloids because they do stupid things but you're sure going to see Paris Hilton, Lohan, and all the other Hollywood trash featured.

So while we may not agree with how they live or how they choose to raise their children, I think they are doing something right.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:59:57 AM
I would love to know this family IRL.

They have the most amazing ability to get along and not lose their tempers in very healthy and productive ways. I could learn a lot from them.


They have a different culture than many others. I thought that was something that was to be respected under the guise of diversity.






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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:06:53 AM

I don't get why they can't hold hands-I remember the oldest son was allowed to dot hat because it looked like hand sex.
Ummm. I've known inexperienced teens/ young men who came just from hand holding. If you want to confine sexual fulfillment to marriage...

GaJenny
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:14:29 AM

I thought that was something that was to be respected under the guise of diversity.


I'd love for someone to address this...diversity should extend to others that are different whether you agree with what they're doing or not.

We do know that's not how it always works...especially here at the pod.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:37:31 AM

I'd love for someone to address this...diversity should extend to others that are different whether you agree with what they're doing or not.

We do know that's not how it always works...especially here at the pod.
Hey. If that's how they want to live, then I'm not going to stop them. However, I think it's unfortunate (and damaging) that those kids don't have a chance to be who they are or want to be rather than having to be who their parents program them to be and expect them to be.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:44:43 AM

However, I think it's unfortunate (and damaging) that those kids don't have a chance to be who they are or want to be rather than having to be who their parents program them to be and expect them to be.


I'm curious who they're supposed to be, and how outsiders would know that.

I was surprised last night (haven't watched the show in a while) to find that the daughter who had met the guy online that she liked asked her dad if they could travel to Katmandu, Nepal to meet him (he was doing missionary work there). The dad AGREED. So they're going. Halfway around the world. Just to meet a guy, and see the mission. That, to me, is pretty accommodating. My parents would have shut that idea down in .23 seconds flat.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:50:52 AM

They have a different culture than many others. I thought that was something that was to be respected under the guise of diversity.




So well said Leftturnonly! I really admire this family for the grace they show one another, and the decisions that they make for their family. I respect thier values and lifestyle, although it's different from mine. In fact they're the model of grace, humility and patience is something that I aspire my family to have/display more of to one another.

And as a separate note, I'm often times baffled by the Peas that throw around "hypocrite" for activities that parents may have engaged in, but now wish for thier children to not. I did plenty of things in my youth that I sure hope that my children won't do...I don't see that as being hypocritical, rather 'doing better, when you know better' and just plain ole parenting to your beliefs today. Your morals, convictions etc, can change over time...what you were and believed in younger years, may not necessarily be what you believe today, so why would you parent to the "old you" and not the "current you"?


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ravenmist23
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:53:11 AM

They promote DIFFERENT educational paths, because of the teachings that are so anti-scriptural at most universities.


But how marketable are these degrees?

And what if one of the Duggar girls decides she wants to wear pants one day and become a welder? Will she be encouraged in that or will she be told to 'be sweet' and become a helpmeet and mother?


Political dialogue on the Two Peas Board:

State false assertion of "fact"
Insert link
Outrage outrage outrage!
Invent false equivalency
Make sweeping generalizations
Lament the double standard
Cue persecution complex
Degenerate into standard thread bickering

Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:53:39 AM

I'm curious who they're supposed to be, and how outsiders would know that.
Whatever they want to be without the domineering influence of their parents breathing down their necks to conform.

As for travelling to Nepal, weird but I'll give them kudos for actually stepping out of their box.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:01:07 AM


But how marketable are these degrees?

And what if one of the Duggar girls decides she wants to wear pants one day and become a welder? Will she be encouraged in that or will she be told to 'be sweet' and become a helpmeet and mother?






Law degrees were actually bestowed in the state of CA, and then you'd have to test to transfer to your state, was the last I knew, but that was 20 years ago. They were fully legal. Could be set up differently now. I don't know about the rest, as I wasn't interested in them.

As for the welder question, that would likely depend on the parents. Most girls I knew from the program are long past the "no pants" preference. They are artists, loan officers, teachers, all kinds of things. I don't know of too many female welders period, but if the parents think the child has talent in that, they usually encourage it.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:01:16 AM
I thought it was a really mean thing for John David to say when he was talking about how he and his brothers were so good at getting rid of guys who like their sisters and that's why Jana is 24 and still single. Poor Jana.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:01:40 AM
I just read Ben is 18.

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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:07:09 AM
Children aren't quivers. The quiver is a bag that holds arrows. Quiverful means that they will have lots of "arrows" or children in their quiver.

But yeah, Michelle says they are not technically involved in the Quiverful movement.


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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:08:19 AM

Whatever they want to be without the domineering influence of their parents breathing down their necks to conform.


I realize it looks like that if you've never experienced that situation. In some families, that's how it is. But I've seen and been in a lot of homes of this kind over the years, and this one is not at all that way, compared to what I've seen, and compared to my own.

There is a vast difference, experientially, between parents who control, and parents who teach their kids how to handle things and why. The parents who teach their kids how to deal have kids who are pretty confident in their parents' knowledge and thus are more likely to see value in their parents' wisdom and suggestions. That's these kids.

Parents (like mine) who only interpreted that they should control every aspect of their children's lives, raise frustrated kids who often rebel. I have a brother in that very stage right now, and on smaller scales, all of my sibs and I have dealt with that. Thankfully, we've mostly worked through it, but I can tell you, I would have KILLED to have had parents like the Duggars while we were in that program.


~ Tracey

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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:21:36 AM

because of the teachings that are so anti-scriptural at most universities


Three degrees from three universities, here. Never heard any anti-scriptural teachings in my classes. Met some anti-scriptural people, sure, and the teachings weren't PRO-scriptural. But I never heard anything in a class that would make me question the Bible.


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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:24:11 AM

The Duggars are part of The Quiverfull Movement which espouses having as many children - or quivers - in order to combate the eroding morality of modern times.


Ummm... wouldn't the children be the arrows, not quivers? The idea is for the quiver to be full of arrows, no?


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Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:27:03 AM

Three degrees from three universities, here. Never heard any anti-scriptural teachings in my classes. Met some anti-scriptural people, sure, and the teachings weren't PRO-scriptural. But I never heard anything in a class that would make me question the Bible.


My experience was the opposite. I went to college for a year and a half. My first class was a psych class, where the prof brought in a guest speaker who was a gay minister. The prof's premise was that the Bible was outdated, and the minister told us why.

These stories are common. I didn't say it was exclusively that way, but everyone I know who is a Christian who went to college had their beliefs challenged in some form or another. YMMV.


~ Tracey

scrappower
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:27:17 AM
My only issue with them is that they have the children raising the younger ones. Well and the gender inequality/submission but I can ignore that. The child thing is wrong though. If you want to have 20 kids go for it, but expecting the others to care for them is not right. And I see it setting some of them up for a lot of resentment.

GaJenny
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:29:48 AM

I think it's unfortunate (and damaging) that those kids don't have a chance to be who they are or want to be rather than having to be who their parents program them to be and expect them to be.
You sound like you know them personally. How do you know that the kids aren't doing exactly what they want to be doing?

Again...just because they don't live the life you or I live, doesn't mean they're not completely happy with their lives.

When the Duggar kids write a "tell all" book exposing the family secrets...and how oppressed they all were, please be sure and post it here so that I can check it out. Until then, I'm going to have to assume that they're all doing exactly what they want to be doing.

Ms. GreenGenes
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:30:50 AM

My only issue with them is that they have the children raising the younger ones. Well and the gender inequality/submission but I can ignore that. The child thing is wrong though. If you want to have 20 kids go for it, but expecting the others to care for them is not right. And I see it setting some of them up for a lot of resentment.


That bugs me, too. We only had 5 kids and that issue came up.

Last night, I saw they had assigned "teams" of one older child and three younger children. I'm curious whether that is a consistent, all-day assignment, or just a short, daily "entertainment" schedule. I understand that that many kids makes for serious insanity for one mom and dad to handle. I understand why their belief that creates that many children, but then I do think that God gave them to THEM, not their kids. Logistically, they might think it's their only option, and maybe that's true to some degree, but it still bothers me.


~ Tracey

ravenmist23
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:31:39 AM



Ummm... wouldn't the children be the arrows, not quivers? The idea is for the quiver to be full of arrows, no?


I'm no Katniss, so my archery terminology is incorrect, yes. But the theme of what the movement wants to do is still the same.


Political dialogue on the Two Peas Board:

State false assertion of "fact"
Insert link
Outrage outrage outrage!
Invent false equivalency
Make sweeping generalizations
Lament the double standard
Cue persecution complex
Degenerate into standard thread bickering

Lather, rinse, repeat.
(Sarah, March 2012)

leftturnonly
Will trade mosquitoes for cookies.

PeaNut 416,788
March 2009
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Loc: Living in Kim's Perfect World, again.

Posted: 4/9/2014 11:46:35 AM
How terrible it is for children to be respected by their siblings, to learn skills that will help them throughout their lives, and to learn to be leaders in a safe and loving environment.

Those horrible parents. They should be ashamed of themselves!

Children need to be left to their own devices, accountable to no one with no way to recognize their increasing maturity.

Why, when these kids grow up to be responsible adults, fully confident and capable of taking care of a house, a family and a business, they'll have no one but their parents to blame!






If PC is the way to get to Heaven, I'm going straight to Hell.



ksuheather
low-information individual

PeaNut 190,373
February 2005
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Posted: 4/9/2014 11:50:32 AM
IMHO they seem to say the right things with regards to encouraging their children's educational choices but in practice it has not played out. Josh doesn't have a degree, Jill is working on a Direct Entry Midwife certificate which isn't even legal in many states and none of the others seem to be doing anything past their GED. Gothard does have "training programs" but they aren't accredited so they are worthless "degrees". I have heard about the law school/program and I believe only one graduate has ever passed the CA bar.

My other beef is how they have the older girls running the household and raising the children. I'm all for everyone pitching in but the buddy system/teams as a permanent fixture isn't right. (And yes, those buddy teams are an all day every day thing with every aspect of childcare included.)



A veteran is someone who, at one
point in his life, wrote a blank check
made payable to 'The United States of
America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'


scrappower
Allons-y Alonso

PeaNut 174,150
October 2004
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:04:03 PM
LTO no need to be snarky. I think parents need to raise their own children. Period. Don't agree with me, fine. But no need to snark.

Epeanymous
PeaFixture

PeaNut 15,108
May 2001
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:06:51 PM
My perspective is a little different than many people's, I think, because I am having the experience of raising what is not an objectively huge number of kids (five) in a social milieu in which that is nevertheless unusual (my professional contacts tend to have at most two kids and fairly commonly one or none), so I am sensitive to making assumptions about people based on things like family size. At the same time, my mother was the oldest of four and (due to various circumstances) ended up being the primary daily caregiver for her siblings and home once she hit her teens, and I have heard her perspective on how difficult that was, how much responsibility she had before she was ready, how emotionally draining that was, etc. So I am not particularly sanguine when it seems that older siblings are given near-parental levels of responsibility within a family. I share some of the concerns others have raised about the degree of isolation -- I think homeschooling is often a reasonable decision, but it seems that, socially, the Duggars associate with their own family and other similar families, and I am one of those people who thinks we really can all learn a lot from one another, and that really engaging diverse environments is useful to personal formation, and that formal educational environments (including, yes, universities) provide a particularly good place to do so (not the exclusive place to do so, obviously).

I suppose for me what it may come down to is -- I think there are things I can learn from the Duggars, and that there are interesting things about their family and how they choose to organize their lives. I wonder if they would say the same thing about me? Obviously none of us can answer that question.

melanell
Ancient Ancestor of Pea

PeaNut 26,836
January 2002
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:09:09 PM
I can only go by what I see of them on TV (Which is even more limited by the fact that I don't watch much of them.), which is obviously not their entire life, but anyway....from what we see, they seem happy and successful, and I don't see the family doing harm to anyone else.

So if they are truly all happy and successful, then I am glad for them. Isn't that what we all want in our lives?


Many of their choices would not make *me* happy or successful, but luckily I get to make my own choices just as they do.



Ms. GreenGenes
AncestralPea

PeaNut 140,500
April 2004
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:20:07 PM
ksuheather, where on earth have you heard that only one passed the bar? That wasn't even remotely true 20 years ago.


~ Tracey

GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian

PeaNut 43,061
July 2002
Posts: 33,591
Layouts: 2

Posted: 4/9/2014 12:21:40 PM

You sound like you know them personally. How do you know that the kids aren't doing exactly what they want to be doing?

Again...just because they don't live the life you or I live, doesn't mean they're not completely happy with their lives.
I don't know them, but I do know people like them. And ya, I do think they they are lacking true world experience, dealing with people unlike themselves and not finding out what decisions THEY could make rather than the ones that their parents pressure them to make. I don't think it's healthy that kids are forced to parent the children their parents have because there are too many of them to be properly cared for by their parents. I just don't agree with the lifestyle and think they need a lot more real world experience to be on their own. Also, if their "certificates" and "diplomas" lack accreditation like one poster mentioned, then the outside world "experience" they are minimally exposed to is worthless and won't get them anywhere other than being stuck at home until they marry into a marriage identical to their parents'.
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