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benem
Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt.
PeaNut 526,154
October 2011
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Loc: Illinois
 |  Posted: 1/27/2013 8:18:27 PM
I just had this long conversation with my friend's young adult son last night. I won't go into details, but to my outside eyes a lot of his issues come from him just not having much drive. His parents have given him everything he needs and most of what he wants as well. They paid for him to go to art school, and after he couldn't get a job with just one summer of trying, they are now paying for his BA. And thye just bought him a car too. He's a good kid, sweet, loving, charming, friendly. But he is not driven to try and move out and be on his own or to suffer for the things he claims he wants.
I wonder if my friend (his mom) spoiled him. Is ambition or drive something inherent in a personality or have you trained or raised your kids to have it? How?
Just wondering.... |
"We are NSBR. We talk about E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Diva Cups Merkins Tub Girl Crock Pots Kitten Heels The Hoff HOF Obama Bush Kardashians Shopping Carts Shopping Trolleys Dead Aunt Cookies Trolls Not Trolls Garden Snakes Snails Stripper Poles with or with out Birds In-Laws Scoff-Laws Blogs Borg Paint Colors Dinner Books and Each Other"
--SueSume, 3/21/13
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andtyler
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 251,639
March 2006
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 | Posted: 1/27/2013 8:38:48 PM
Great question. I don't think that success is possible without ambition. |
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andtyler
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 251,639
March 2006
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| Posted: 1/27/2013 8:38:48 PM
Great question. I don't think that success is possible without ambition. |
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HeidiJo
PeaAddict
PeaNut 35,646
April 2002
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Loc: Centennial, CO
 | Posted: 1/27/2013 8:47:44 PM
I think you hit on it in your post--don't give your kids everything they want! Why would they have any ambition or drive to get or achieve anything if it's always just handed to them? Make them work for what they want. |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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 | Posted: 1/27/2013 8:49:28 PM
I believe that ambition is something that comes from inside you. It can be nurtured, it can be squelched with really bad parenting. But I think that one's internal makeup and personality has a lot to do with it.
Some kids are driven by rewards, grades, recognition. Those kids were out of stock when my 2nd one was made. If he doesn't see value in doing something, he resists with all his might. I wish I had realized this sooner. The first manifestation of this was when he decided to be a picky eater. I tried having him help choose and fix food, tried having one thing on the table he wanted, closely watched for him sneaking snacks. And to this day, if he doesn't want to eat what I fix, he will simply go hungry until the next meal. Doesn't complain, doesn't sneak food, just true to his core belief that it'a not worthwhile to eat something he doesn't absolutely love.
On school projects, he will work like a maniac - IF he is interested in the project. Otherwise he throws something together and accepts whatever grade comes.
There are kids who are handed a LOT, a lot more than I am able or willing to give mine, and they are honors students, play umpteen sports and hold down a part time job. They are the ambitious, energetic child that is most parents' dream. What did their parents do "right"? I have no idea. The only thing they can do that I can't is pass on their genes, so I'm guessing that's a factor.
There are kids who are not handed everything, who are made to work hard, but the internal something isn't there, even though their parents have it, it isn't coming through.
The older my kids get, the less I judge other parents about how their kids are turning out. The more I realize that I'm not privy to what is going on in their home. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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tamhugh
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
PeaNut 12,875
March 2001
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 | Posted: 1/27/2013 8:58:49 PM
Nightowl, you just described my younger son to a T. He frustrates us a lot because he is so bright, but if he doesn't like it, he doesn't apply himself. We thought he was really happy at college, but he told us last week before going back, that he likes the school but hates living in the city. Now he is looking to transfer. If it is a class he is interested in, he does great with no effort. If it isn't, he skate by.
Older DS was always driven. He wanted to be good at sports, good in school, and wanted people to like him. In some ways, you would never think they are brothers, even though they were raised in the same home wth the same parents. But, if I am honest, in many ways, I worry less about the younger one. He is stubbornly true to himself. He will make mistakes, but he won't be pressured into them. He is never going to have a heart attack caused by stress. He is comfortable with who he is. | |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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| Posted: 1/27/2013 9:05:32 PM
But, if I am honest, in many ways, I worry less about the younger one. He is stubbornly true to himself. He will make mistakes, but he won't be pressured into them. He is never going to have a heart attack caused by stress. He is comfortable with who he is.
that's heartening, Tamhugh. I guess they have a good life if you can figure out some way to get them educated enough to get and hold a job that will support them, lol!
His 8th grade social studies teacher talked to me about him at parent teacher conference. He was an older man, and had been teaching middle school for I dont know how long, but a long time. He said "Your son is an introvert" I stared at him, and he laughed. "I know that most people think of it in the popular sense, and you are probably thinking I'm nuts because he's very friendly, outgoing, and talkative. But the classical definition is a person who is unmoved by external motivation, all motivation and drive is internal, HE has to see a value in what he is doing, see it in his own mind, and what others value, like grades and praise, is secondary to what he thinks inside." Or something along those lines.
I thought it was a very insightful view of my son, and it helped me be a little more understanding and accepting. I still push him, but I dont' beat myself up quite as much for being a rotten parent for the past 15 years when he doesn't budge. and I try to ignore what other people think, because he certainly does. It will be a good thing someday, if he makes it out of high school <sigh>. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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lucyg819
pearl-clutching nitpicker
PeaNut 201,774
April 2005
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Loc: gone to chemo with BethAnne
 | Posted: 1/27/2013 9:39:16 PM
Nightowl is so right. Part of it is how you raise your children, but a lot is just what they're born with.
I've seen so many kids who were spoiled rotten and turned out great. OR turned out rotten. And so many kids whose parents did all the right things but their adult children still struggle or went downright bad. OR turned out great.
And lots of in-betweens. It's not simple enough to just lay the blame (or credit) on parenting. |
LUCYG
northern california
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell
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Iowa_girl
PeaNut
PeaNut 225,620
October 2005
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| Posted: 1/27/2013 9:41:50 PM
Do you think there is anything to birth order?
My oldest is very driven. Middle child is also, but more mellow in personality. Third (and baby of the family) is exactly what Nightowl described.
Our kids are given a lot, but they also don't get everything their friends do. They are expected to work for us and they also have outside jobs during the summer. They don't have to pay for phone, car, tuition, etc.
I wish I knew the secret to motivate my youngest. The potential is there, I just hope it is uncovered before he gets much older. | |
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~SuburbanMom~
Wannabe FNPea!
PeaNut 82,318
April 2003
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Loc: In my garden
 | Posted: 1/27/2013 9:42:04 PM
With three kids that are very different, and my husband and I are very driven, I really think it is a particular combination of nature and nurture. |
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scoobers
Why, YES!, I am a princess.
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 | Posted: 1/27/2013 9:42:13 PM
I don't think you can raise them to have either. It's inside - and you can't force it. |
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*~*amanda*~*
...
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October 2008
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| Posted: 1/27/2013 9:45:01 PM
pretty much what Nightowl said.
I think the person has to have the internal 'something' to drive them to do what they want/need to do or they wont do it.
One of my kids has less than the other 2 and to get him to do something is like pulling teeth if he doesn't want to do it. |
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recap.pea
StuckOnPeas
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December 2006
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 | Posted: 1/27/2013 9:59:37 PM
From what I have seen - the phrase "children learn what they live" is pretty true. If they see that their parents are driven and have ambition, they will too.
My father was very driven and ambitious and worked he way up the corporate ladder. My mother, was a SAHM, but she also had drive and ambition, was always meeting new people, learning new things and when we where in high school, she took a part time job just to do something different.
My siblings and I all have the same kind of drive, we all worked our way up the corporate ladders and we are all top leaders at our companies. We work do the best we can at home too - we just mimic the way our parents lived.
Children really do watch their parents and use them as examples for their lives. | |
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SillyRabbit
StuckOnPeas
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September 2003
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| Posted: 1/27/2013 10:52:10 PM
I agree with Nightowl and others. I think it is a combination of nature and nurture with nature playing a more significant role. I always excelled in school. Straight A's, top of the class, all that. No one ever had to pressure me to do well because I had this innate desire to achieve. I remember feeling that way from the time I was 5 years old. I also see it in my own children...my oldest is his father made over when it comes to school. Just does enough to get by. Then there's my youngest who always wants to be the best. They were both raised in the same environment but are polar opposites in that respect.
With all that said, I believe a person can find an area to be ambitious about. DH wasn't a very motivated student and went through a few jobs before he found one that clicked for him. He has since gone on to excel at that job taking classes for certifications to move himself up the ladder. So even if nature stacks the deck against you, I believe you can overcome it with the right catalyst. |
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IleneTell
StuckOnPeas
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Kiwipolz
It's Polz, not Kiwi
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September 2004
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Loc: New Zealand
| Posted: 1/28/2013 12:00:59 AM
His parents have given him everything he needs and most of what he wants as well.
Well, he has done well to get everything ne needs and most of what he wants out of his parents. Maybe he used drive to get that. Path of least resistance etc.
My cousin is like this. He is 24, unemployed and has been for 4 years. In 2007, my Nan offered to leave me her house in her will, provided I let him live with me. I said no way. That would be a life sentence for me. She has since changed her will to leave him the house. She is 79 and pretty much given up driving, so he has her car as well. He lives with her and pays nothing for it because 'he needs me to take care of him'. Really, he has achieved what most people work their whole life for - a freehold house and no responsibilities.
I guess he might be motivated to work to get a bigger house or another car but he is just one single person, so he is happy where he is. | |
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peapermint
Ancient Ancestor of Pea
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January 2001
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Loc: all up in your business
| Posted: 1/28/2013 1:11:57 AM
Someone once told me that you can have high self-esteem or you can have drive -- but you can't have both.
I'm pretty sure that's b.s., but it was an intriguing enough concept for me to roll it around in my head for awhile. | |
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benem
Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt.
PeaNut 526,154
October 2011
Posts: 5,476
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Loc: Illinois
| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:06:13 AM
Hm maybe that's true. Maybe I have so much drive bc I am not happy with my life the way it is. I kind of see this in my friend's son. He is pretty happy with what he has and can get. He just wishes his father was not so unreasonable. I told him, money is power. When you take your parents' money, they have power over your life. If you want to do whatever else the solution is to move out and live life on your own terms. But why should he-- except for his dad being a hard ass he really has it made where he is. |
"We are NSBR. We talk about E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Diva Cups Merkins Tub Girl Crock Pots Kitten Heels The Hoff HOF Obama Bush Kardashians Shopping Carts Shopping Trolleys Dead Aunt Cookies Trolls Not Trolls Garden Snakes Snails Stripper Poles with or with out Birds In-Laws Scoff-Laws Blogs Borg Paint Colors Dinner Books and Each Other"
--SueSume, 3/21/13
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writermom1
Thrift Whisperer
PeaNut 114,407
November 2003
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Loc: At the intersection of Hooterville and Stars Hollow
| Posted: 1/28/2013 7:17:14 AM
I hope it's requiring real, ongoing responsibility (chores) beyond busy work.
My kids are not only capable in the house but last summer when it was near 100 degrees our 15 yo was home alone when the pasture fence broke. He went out of his own volition and worked for hours in the heat to repair the problem because it needed doing. He didn't call his parents he just did it.
Ditto firewood - if you want heat you work
He's also a referee which entails showing up early and staying late and being on the job in a very visible sense the entire time.
My point being I hope to tie ambition and work to the things we enjoy in life.
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GrinningCat
Proudly Canadian
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July 2002
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 7:23:51 AM
I don't think that giving kids an education means that they will lose their ability to motivate themselves. I think that's laying blame on someone for making a different decision than what you would do.
Motivation, drive and ambition are inherent traits in people, either you have it or you don't. It's not really something that can be taught, though it can be encouraged. Some people are naturally driven to excel, others just prefer to skate along.
Either you have it or not, it's not something that's given to children from their parents. It can be influenced, but cannot be given or demanded by anyone but the person themselves. | |
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Jenny Lilac
For Esme with Love and Squalor
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August 2002
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Loc: Pioneer Valley, Massachusetts
| Posted: 1/28/2013 7:25:52 AM
I think you have to give them goals early in life that require hard work to attain. I think finding an activity that your child loves so much they are willing to work to be better at it is one way, whether it be a musical instrument, sport, dance, etc. For my DD it is swim team. She can see a direct correlation between working hard at practice and doing better at meets. |
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auntkelly
BOOMER SOONER!
PeaNut 142,266
April 2004
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 7:46:44 AM
I think it is a complicated mix of nature and nuture.
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
PeaNut 103,889
August 2003
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Loc: Colorado
| Posted: 1/28/2013 7:56:39 AM
I think you have to give them goals early in life that require hard work to attain.
You are making an assumption that you can 'give them goals'. When you have a kid like mine, you can attempt to set all the goals you want, but it's mostly a waste of time if he hasnt thought them up and adopted them himself.
Personality plays more into this than most people think. I could give you a list of at least 8 major areas that he's shown a burning desire, we've encouraged it and supported it, and then he's done and has a new burning desire. He doesn't quit in the middle, he finishes what he's started then he simply moves on.
When he's done with something, he's done, and nothing will get him back into it because he has accomplished whatever, in his mind, was adequate for that interest. Sometimes my head spins. He is so smart, and capable of so many things, but he is the one who decides what is happening next, and maybe it will be what he was devoted to for the last 6-12 months, maybe it isn't. I see him as someone who will change careers several times in his life, which I guess fits the current economy. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
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Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 1/28/2013 8:05:04 AM
I think a lot of it is what you're born with.
Both DH and I own(ed) our own businesses, A type personalities, worked hard, with a lot of long hours. The kids spent a lot of time at the office so they know what hard work is. We have managed to raise one capitalist, and one who is happy to to be a good girl, isn't particularly motivated by money or rewards, doesn't respond one way or the other to bribes or incentives, but achieves good mddle of the road successes. She's happy with what she has, whereas DS is driven to do better, earn more, be the best at whatever he does etc. | |
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MergeLeft
Typical Liberal
PeaNut 221,236
August 2005
Posts: 19,075
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Loc: Houston
| Posted: 1/28/2013 8:15:39 AM
I think everybody has some innate ambition or drive. It just may not be in areas that are seen by society as being the "right" ones - career, money, etc. And I think that the areas in which each person's ambition lies has as much to do with innate personality characteristics as anything else. Otherwise, how do you explain families where some siblings are highly successful and others seem to be "slackers" by comparison? They're all raised the same way, right?
Some people are driven to succeed in their career. They're drawn to a high-paying career and motivated to do well at it. Others have ambitions to be an artist or musician and don't care if they're never rich doing it. Others are ambitious in the area of social justice, or there's a recreational sport they like, or maybe they're just driven to succeed at video games or fixing up old cars or being the very best wife and homemaker on the block.
The point is that we can't choose what our kids' passions will be. Neither of my parents would have chosen music for me, but I knew from a very young age that it was the one driving passion of my life and it remains the only area in which I have any ambitions.
I think my job as a parent is to help my kids find out what their passions are and then to open up as many avenues as possible for them to succeed in those areas. And when they're adults, to keep my mouth shut if their idea of "success" doesn't necessarily align with mine. That doesn't mean I have to continue to support them into adulthood. It just means that I need to not criticize however they define success.
I do think some values - like self-reliance and responsibility - are largely taught, but those are separate from ambition. |
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Miss Ang
I'm a Toilet Paper Pea. Are you?
PeaNut 26,443
January 2002
Posts: 11,478
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Loc: Illinois
| Posted: 1/28/2013 8:16:20 AM
While that may be the case with the person you're speaking of, I don't know if that's true with all people.
I have two children 17 and 13. My 17 yr. old is a stand-out athlete, a great student and VERY motivated in everything she does. She works a part time job on the weekends and she volunteers.
My 13 yr. old is not motivated to do much of anything other than the basics to get by. He used to be a straight A student and now just getting him to complete his homework and turn it in is a struggle.
They were raised in the same home with both parents in the exact same way. Yet are both so, very different. |
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MrsScrapDiva
PeaFixture
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August 2003
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Loc: New Hampshire
| Posted: 1/28/2013 9:56:29 AM
I've been thinking of this post since I read it earlier today. I would like to share my personal experience. My kids are only 3 & 8 and I hope end up having more drive and ambition than myself.
Growing up, things came easy for me - making friends, being creative, doing well in school. I was easy going (I am the last born btw). My parents always said you can do what ever you want to do it life, but it stopped there. I was not spoiled at all. I worked when I was 14 (babysitting) until I could get real payroll type job. I always worked hard to earn my money.
But with all that said, I gave up too early on a lot of things. While I did very well in high school, I was never pushed to take level 4 honors classes. I went to college but never really pushed to get into a great school. I got a two year degree because I just decided one day that I didn't want to be at that particular 4 year college anymore. I didn't have any "drive" to explore more options. When the going got tough, I quit. I did not push and work thru the obstacles. I just don't have that drive in me. Most of my late teens and twenties, I just couldn't commit myself to anything. Just a temporary girl living a temporary life.
Now as an adult, I realize that during high school I would have really benefitted from a mentor. Someone who believed in me and to give me that push. I should have given more of my all to succeed and not just back down when I failed or got overwhelmed. It does bother me from time to time that I didn't push to find a career that would fit me.
I think another secret to drive and ambition is having the self esteem to just keep going past obstacles that stand in your way. | |
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benem
Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt.
PeaNut 526,154
October 2011
Posts: 5,476
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Loc: Illinois
| Posted: 1/28/2013 10:18:48 AM
This has been a really interesting thread, thank you.
I talk about this a lot with my young cousin, who just graduated from my alma mater last May. Now she has a degree (in Art History) and what is she going to do with her life? She doesn't know. She is very smart but doesn't have a dream to pursue.
In terms of my friend's son, he is very interested in 3-D modeling and he studied that at art school. He is very good at it, and very good at all kinds of design. Our conversation came up bc he was complaining about his dad being too controlling and unreasonable (IMO too controlling but that's another thread). And I said, the solution is to move out. He gave me a bunch of reasons why he couldn't but to me they were all just excuses. He doesn't have any real reason to move out. He looked for a job and yes he put in applications, but the thing he wouldn't do in art school was pursue any kind of internships to get work experience. Now he is getting his BA and the same thing. I keep telling his mother, he needs to not go to school this summer, he NEEDS to get some work experience and most importantly references. Her attitude is that if he doesn't have school he will be sitting around the house all summer, doing not much of anything.
He is a lot like his mother. She is definitely not a slacker or lazy in any way. She is willing to do the work if work is required. But.. sometimes just doing the work is not enough. I don't believe that if you just show up and do what is required, doors will open and the red carpet will be rolled out by life. I wish it was like that but I have been proven wrong in that too much. I think if your goal is hard and your chances are slim, you have got to be willing to do whatever it takes, and some suffering is included. He has been taught to do the work, but knows nothing about suffering. He's been protected from all of that.
Really I was just wondering if there is a way parents instill ambition in their kids, but I guess not. |
"We are NSBR. We talk about E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Diva Cups Merkins Tub Girl Crock Pots Kitten Heels The Hoff HOF Obama Bush Kardashians Shopping Carts Shopping Trolleys Dead Aunt Cookies Trolls Not Trolls Garden Snakes Snails Stripper Poles with or with out Birds In-Laws Scoff-Laws Blogs Borg Paint Colors Dinner Books and Each Other"
--SueSume, 3/21/13
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
Posts: 19,528
Layouts: 0
Loc: California, NY & Orlando
| Posted: 1/28/2013 1:51:31 PM
He is a lot like his mother. She is definitely not a slacker or lazy in any way. She is willing to do the work if work is required. But.. sometimes just doing the work is not enough. I don't believe that if you just show up and do what is required, doors will open and the red carpet will be rolled out by life. I wish it was like that but I have been proven wrong in that too much.
This is where I think that internal drive part is missing. I saw it a lot with my employees. They would show up on time, do good work, but not outstanding work, grumble if they had to stay late to finish a project, and God forbid, don't even mention coming in on a weekend...then they would wonder why they didn't get lavish raises.
I have tried to teach my kids to reach further than is necessary, and we certainly modeled that behavior for them. But, as I said earlier, we have one child who is a problem solver, a negotiator, and a hard worker. The other one does a good job, never complains, occasionally does more than she's asked, but only if she wants to. She's sweet, nice, polite, but not the least bit driven to win. | |
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busypea
boring + nerdy
PeaNut 52,817
October 2002
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Loc: Oregon
| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:01:12 PM
I think it is mostly innate, coupled with what is modeled.
I grew up fairly privileged. I wanted for nothing. I didn't work in high school or during the school year in college. My parents paid for college 100%. It was always clear that those benefits were not owed to me, but were given to make my life a little easier (my mom's youth was not pleasant).
Yet I am ambitious and driven and always have been and so are two of my three brothers (both biological and step).
It's what we saw from our parents growing up and it was always made EXTREMELY clear to us that we had the lifestyle we had because our parents worked very hard for it. If we wanted a similar lifestyle when we were grown, we too would have to work hard for it.
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IleneTell
StuckOnPeas
PeaNut 434,842
August 2009
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:31:22 PM
It's what we saw from our parents growing up and it was always made EXTREMELY clear to us that we had the lifestyle we had because our parents worked very hard for it. If we wanted a similar lifestyle when we were grown, we too would have to work hard for it.
I'm glad to hear you say that. I worry sometimes about our kids growing up with so much more than DH and I had, and wonder if HAVING to work for a better life was part of what resulted in us being ambitious. But hopefully our kids will grow up this way too, even though they will have more handed to them and a safety net always there.
ETA: I do always make it a point of making it clear to DD (DS is too young for that yet) that we had to earn everything we have and we didn't grow up with it, and that if she wants a good life down the road, she will have to work for it as well and try hard. Hopefully just explaining this to her will sink in. |
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busypea
boring + nerdy
PeaNut 52,817
October 2002
Posts: 25,146
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Loc: Oregon
| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:40:54 PM
I do always make it a point of making it clear to DD (DS is too young for that yet) that we had to earn everything we have and we didn't grow up with it, and that if she wants a good life down the road, she will have to work for it as well and try hard. Hopefully just explaining this to her will sink in.
My parents told us explicitly that's why we had what we did, and they also were very clear that the gravy train would not go on forever. We were always expected to be top performers in school because we had the luxury of not working. If we didn't perform, there would be consequences, no doubt about it (luckily none of us ever found out what they would be).
It was also abundantly clear from very early on that after college, we were on our own. There was no coming home to live to find ourselves, save money, because it was "too hard" out there, etc.. We'd had ample time and every opportunity to be prepared to be on our own. And be on our own we would be. Not in a cruel way - if something terrible happened to us, they would certainly help - but in a "it is time for you to make the most of all that you have been given" way.
Because of their parenting style over the years, we knew they were serious about that, so none of us tested that boundary. | |
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IleneTell
StuckOnPeas
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:43:14 PM
It was also abundantly clear from very early on that after college, we were on our own. There was no coming home to live to find ourselves, save money, because it was "too hard" out there, etc.. We'd had ample time and every opportunity to be prepared to be on our own. And be on our own we would be. Not in a cruel way - if something terrible happened to us, they would certainly help - but in a "it is time for you to make the most of all that you have been given" way.
Because of their parenting style over the years, we knew they were serious about that, so none of us tested that boundary.
Sounds like your parents really did a great job parenting ...it's a good example to learn from. |
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busypea
boring + nerdy
PeaNut 52,817
October 2002
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:47:13 PM
Sounds like your parents really did a great job parenting ...it's a good example to learn from.
They really did. Of course, there were times when it didn't *feel* that way
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mdoc
Peaing under the Radar
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:47:15 PM
I think drive comes from within. We've treated our kids the same and given them pretty much the same material things throughout the years, yet they have very different levels of ambition, from D3 who is extremely driven, to D1 who is moderately ambitious, to D2 with no ambition or motivation whatsoever. | |
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paigepea
I'm PEAchy Keen!
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March 2003
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 2:58:15 PM
I think that parents having expectations can increase drive.
I also think that this boy talked about in the op is lucky his parents are allowing him and giving him the time to find his passion. I don't find that spoiling someone, but my parents would have done the same thing for me... to an extent.
I do think that finding a passion is important in finding ambition. Too many kids today are rushed into making career choices too early, as early as high school, and IMO that kills passion. Why do we have so many adults moving from career to career nowadays or completely miserable in their career? It would be great if we had more time to try out different options.
I also think ambition in life comes when you find a passion for life - a special partner, a place you'd live to live, |
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benem
Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt.
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:00:42 PM
It's what we saw from our parents growing up and it was always made EXTREMELY clear to us that we had the lifestyle we had because our parents worked very hard for it. If we wanted a similar lifestyle when we were grown, we too would have to work hard for it.
That's what I am talking about. He doesn't get that. When I talk to him, the things he says, it's like he really doesn't see how much work and how much effort his parents have put in to give him the life he has now. |
"We are NSBR. We talk about E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Diva Cups Merkins Tub Girl Crock Pots Kitten Heels The Hoff HOF Obama Bush Kardashians Shopping Carts Shopping Trolleys Dead Aunt Cookies Trolls Not Trolls Garden Snakes Snails Stripper Poles with or with out Birds In-Laws Scoff-Laws Blogs Borg Paint Colors Dinner Books and Each Other"
--SueSume, 3/21/13
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:04:53 PM
I think there's a difference between ambition and drive, and the recognition that you arent forever going to be handed stuff. 2 different issues, and I see them getting confused with all the "my parents taught me I had to work for a living" stories. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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IleneTell
StuckOnPeas
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:07:49 PM
I think there's a difference between ambition and drive, and the recognition that you arent forever going to be handed stuff. 2 different issues, and I see them getting confused with all the "my parents taught me I had to work for a living" stories.
You don't think knowing that they won't be handed stuff forever makes people more ambitious? Knowing that they have to find a way to support themselves? |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:16:26 PM
You don't think knowing that they won't be handed stuff forever makes people more ambitious? Knowing that they have to find a way to support themselves?
Nope. Not at all. I've watched it with relatives. You can recognize that you have to earn your own way and be responsible for paying your bills and supporting yourself, and be a functional, taxpaying citizen while not being what anyone would describe as ambitious. Ambition comes from within, responsible adult behavior is generally taught.
Ambition can be in a direction other than wage earning. You can be an avid hiker, looking for new challenges all the time in that area (ambition) and be perfectly happy with a job that keeps your rent, car payment, and cell phone bill up to date. there are people who strive in the arts with their ambition, and never really get that they need to have a real job that pays the bills. Yes they are ambitious, but not until someone stops paying the bills do they become responsible, and even then their employers may describe them as adequate, not ambitious.
Having to support yourself is a motivation. Wanting to be the very best you can be at something is ambition. Or as the dictionary puts it
an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment
Not really related to whether you acknowledge you need to earn a living, unless your ambition is toward wealth.
So I absolutely see them as completely separate issues. You can require your kid to get a job. You can't make them like it or want to make the effort to get promotions. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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busypea
boring + nerdy
PeaNut 52,817
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:35:51 PM
I agree with Nightowl. Two of my brothers and I are intrinsically ambitious and our parents leveraged that. The lessons they modeled/taught had a different impact on us. Our other brother is a responsible adult, but lacks ambition. There are clear personality differences between us that have been apparent since childhood. He also learned lessons for our parents, but they are manifested differently in his life. | |
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IleneTell
StuckOnPeas
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:40:58 PM
Good points, Nightowl. So do you think then that drive/ambition is something that can be taught? Or fostered? |
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yungmom
Just Me
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:54:01 PM
I think it comes from within, but parents can do a lot to increase or decrease it. Giving everything to a child can teach the child he doesn't have to do anything. Having high expectation of a child and having consequences doesn't always mean the child will get the understanding. And I've found that sometimes what seems like a lack of ambition is really when someone feels they don't have control and refuses to let others to control them. This is my son. he has a lot of ambition...in some areas we are not especially excited about. For years if he even got a slight thought that we might want him to do something specific he would show absolutely no interest in it even when it was killing him that he wasn't doing the thing. It's only been in the last year that he is showing us that he actually had ambition for these things...sometimes. Sometimes he just really doesn't care.
Do you think there is anything to birth order?
I used to be big on birth order till I married and had kids. I am the oldest of 5. DH is the youngest of 5. He has more ambition than I do. He also has more ambition than 3 out of the 5 kids in his family.
My oldest drives me crazy with his lack of ambition and control issues. I'm guessing my oldest would be chosen as the oldest every single time. My youngest can go both ways, but sometimes he is super intense about getting things done - driving me crazy in the other direction.
This is where I think that internal drive part is missing. I saw it a lot with my employees. They would show up on time, do good work, but not outstanding work, grumble if they had to stay late to finish a project, and God forbid, don't even mention coming in on a weekend...then they would wonder why they didn't get lavish raises.
I realize you are talking about specific people who you know and there is probably more to this, but just wanted to say that staying late and working weekends does not always mean someone doesn't have drive. DH read studies some years ago that showed people often got less work done overall when needing to stay late and work weekends often. The work was just spread out more. He used to work a lot of nights and Saturdays, but he found he was out of balance. He now works less, feels better, gets more work done and his boss feels he is essential to the company. |
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benem
Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt.
PeaNut 526,154
October 2011
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 3:57:33 PM
Wanting to be the very best you can be at something is ambition. Or as the dictionary puts it
an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment
Well that's not how I was using it in this thread. I was specifically talking about getting off your butt and moving forward in spite of obstacles bc you have this internal drive to be successful in life (in whatever way you want to define it). I guess my friend's son would then have a lot of "ambition" bc he sure is good at video games. And he does work at his schooling and he does do well there.
I was talking about not being satisfied with the status quo of your life and being willing to do whatever it takes to get where you need to go, bc you have this internal drive that pushes you to do it. IN particular, I meant the internal drive for independence.
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"We are NSBR. We talk about E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Diva Cups Merkins Tub Girl Crock Pots Kitten Heels The Hoff HOF Obama Bush Kardashians Shopping Carts Shopping Trolleys Dead Aunt Cookies Trolls Not Trolls Garden Snakes Snails Stripper Poles with or with out Birds In-Laws Scoff-Laws Blogs Borg Paint Colors Dinner Books and Each Other"
--SueSume, 3/21/13
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crimsoncat05
PeaFixture
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 4:17:14 PM
Having to support yourself is a motivation. Wanting to be the very best you can be at something is ambition.
I agree with this... I think ambition / drive / whatever you want to call it is something that's innate in some people, and not others. I think I would be very much like Nightowl's second DS in that I try/do a lot of different things, but lose interest in them after a while. I love the initial 'rush' of learning something new, I guess, but don't like finishing things- whether it's work related projects, my newest SB page, craft project, whatever it is. Oh, I finish things at work, because that's what I'm paid to do, but truthfully, I sometimes have to force myself to do it, even there.
I guess my 'ambition' is the thrill of learning, but I haven't figured out if there's a way to parlay that particular ambition into a paying career (nor am I driven- pun intended, lol- to figure it out).
Sometimes I kinda wish I was one of those people who know what 'it' is- that thing, that passion, whatever- that leads them to achieve great things-- so I could absolutely work towards it every day of my life and 'work hard without it feeling like work because I love it so very much' but I'm not sure it's out there for everyone... or at least it's not for me. And sometimes, I think it's more the fact that our society focuses so very much on this kind of drive or ambition as a measure of personal success, which leads people who truly aren't like that to feel there's something lacking in them.
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"Accepting anything without question is the antithesis of critical thinking and education. ~wren*walk, 8/20/12"
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 4:33:50 PM
I was talking about not being satisfied with the status quo of your life and being willing to do whatever it takes to get where you need to go, bc you have this internal drive that pushes you to do it. IN particular, I meant the internal drive for independence.
Not being satisfied with status quo and being willing to do whatever it takes, etc. certainly fits the definition of ambition that I posted. An internal drive for independence is something else again. You can be the type of person who doesn't want to be told what to do, yet not be interested in being the best at anything, and be hapy with a job that just lets you live a fairly low level of lifestyle. A car in good condition vs the latest model; an apartment in a safe neighborhood vs a house, etc. And
And "internal drive" is just that. You cannot create in someone an internal drive.
In answer to
So do you think then that drive/ambition is something that can be taught? Or fostered?
no, I don't think you can teach someone to have it who doesn't. What you can do is help a child find what is their version of ambition (and accept that it might be baseball but he'll never even make a college team, much less the majors) and foster or encourage them to develop their skills and work toward the ambition of being the best they can be, and enjoy the ride.
But you can't make him have a breadwinning ambition, you can foster a work ethic, an understanding of the value of money, an understanding that being adult means finding a legal way to keep your bills paid, etc. And he may only have the ambition to play rec softball as an adult, yet be a perfectly good husband, father, provider. So he may be a good plumber. Someone who learns what he needs to know to feed his family and kicking in that work ethic to stay employed. And always be content to work for someone else, doing his thing, and saving his energy for family and that baseball thing. Would people say he has no ambition? More than likely.
This is where it gets so hard for parents. We look at that sweet little baby and dream dreams. And if his or her dreams end up falling into line with our dreams of a soccer player, scholar, or swimmer, go to college, perhaps on scholarship due to their talents, graduate cum laude, land that first job and marry their college sweetheart as they write home about promotions and raises, we'll pat ourselves on the back and say "wow, he has such ambition. I must be a great parent."
And then child number 2, who we know is just as smart, skates through school, is super excited about...skateboarding and climbing mountains. Huh. Goes to community college, gets certified as a scuba instructor, and lives with a couple of roommates. Then the backpatting for parenting seems out of place, and we bemoan his lack of ambition.
And we peer over our shoulders at the people who produced 5 of the child #1 types, and know they are deciding we just had to have screwed up somehow with child #2, and heaven forbid we produce 2 child #2's, because everyone will now know that we have failed in our parenting. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 4:41:56 PM
I realize you are talking about specific people who you know and there is probably more to this, but just wanted to say that staying late and working weekends does not always mean someone doesn't have drive. DH read studies some years ago that showed people often got less work done overall when needing to stay late and work weekends often. The work was just spread out more. He used to work a lot of nights and Saturdays, but he found he was out of balance. He now works less, feels better, gets more work done and his boss feels he is essential to the company
I hear what you're saying. I was speaking specifically of people I had employed. It was a manufacturing company, so for the most part, these were blue collar workers. Most were HS grads, some weren't, but generally speaking, they lacked the drive to advance. They weren't asked all that often to work late, or come in on a weekend, but if we were flat to the floor with large orders, it was sometimes necessary.
Even though their jobs were basic line workers and machine operators, there was still an opportunity for any of them to advance to floor managers, production managers, shipping and receiving etc. We had a program that would pay for their tuition if they wanted to take work relate classes, or even get a degree ...nobody from the factory side of the building ever did.
I had one employee who worked for me for 15 years, it was his first job out of HS. He knew how every job on the factory floor was done, was well liked by all the employees, but was never interested in a promotion, just happy to do his job and not be responsible for anything else. Used to drive me crazy. He was a smart kid, good looking, responsible, honest, did his job extremely well, but had no desire to put out anything more than what was required. While I was grateful to have such a great employee, from a purely personal standpoint, I wanted so much more for him, and he was capable of achieving so much more.... he just didn't want to. | |
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busypea
boring + nerdy
PeaNut 52,817
October 2002
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Loc: Oregon
| Posted: 1/28/2013 4:49:06 PM
I had one employee who worked for me for 15 years, it was his first job out of HS. He knew how every job on the factory floor was done, was well liked by all the employees, but was never interested in a promotion, just happy to do his job and not be responsible for anything else. Used to drive me crazy. He was a smart kid, good looking, responsible, honest, did his job extremely well, but had no desire to put out anything more than what was required. While I was grateful to have such a great employee, from a purely personal standpoint, I wanted so much more for him, and he was capable of achieving so much more.... he just didn't want to.
But you know what? We NEED people like that. Who are dedicated to and great at the "lower level" jobs.
I see it in banking a lot. We have a lot of tellers who have been in that position for decades and are GREAT at it. It's a mystery to me because I can't imagine not wanting to advance. But they love what they do. They love their customers. They love the detail work. They just love it and are excellent at it.
Without them, our bank would not be as good. If all tellers - who ARE the bank to many people - didn't want to be in those jobs and only looked at it as a stepping stone, our customer service would be worse.
People who are always looking for the next best thing can be excellent at what they are doing now, but their heart isn't (usually) in what they are doing now, and that does have an impact.
That's obviously an industry-specific example, but those kinds of roles and people who fill them exist everywhere.
Everyone can't be CEO and it's OK if everyone doesn't want to be. If they take pride in what they do and strive to be the best at what they do, I think that's awesome. | |
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Nightowl scrapper
Intl Assoc of Epic Length Posters - USA Chapter
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August 2003
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 4:49:46 PM
I-95, reading your last post made me think of something.
Sometimes what looks like a lack of ambition is actually a matter of knowing yourself and your limitations.
DH has been asked to try for management positions half a dozen times or so in his career. he actually did an interim supervisor gig. It dawned on him quickly that he was not temperamentally suited to management. He doesn't want to discipline employees. He doesn't want to be the go-between in a bad situation. He certainly doesn't want to lay off or fire employees. He wants to do his job. And he's quite good at it. When offered the opportunity to go for a master's program, he did, not because he was dying to get a master's, but because he knew he had to in order to have a little more job security and flexibility.
And he's more than likely missed out on some great career opportunities because he doesn't want to manage people. Some would look at him and say "oh, that guy, he's a good enough worker, he doesn't really have any ambition, though." No doubt he shocked a few people when he signed up for the masters program.
But he's a man who knows himself, knows his strengths and weaknesses, and knows what would add so much stress to his life that the money or position would not compensate for the decreased quality of life. |
"Until you put a thought into words, clearly and precisely, it is not a thought at all. It is a kind of fog rolling around inside the skull."
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I-95
It's all just nonsense anyway!
PeaNut 97,456
July 2003
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| Posted: 1/28/2013 9:31:35 PM
But you know what? We NEED people like that. Who are dedicated to and great at the "lower level" jobs.
I don't disagree, but in your OP you asked about whether ambition and drive were inherent, or taught. My employee was just an example of someone who is not inherently ambitious, and don't have much drive. Not a bad thing at all....just my natural A type personality that can't wrap my head around the desire to stay in a low level, ergo low paying job, for the rest of your life. If it makes them happy, it's OK with me....and I have one of those kids myself....I can train her to be a good employee, but I can't make her aspire to be the CEO, or even a VP.
I get that some people don't want the responsibility, or the money, or the challenge, and that's fine. I don't believe parental guidance, a cheering squad, or anything else will motivate a person who lacks the inherent desire, to kick down barriers and shoot for the moon. Those who do have it, nothing will stop them. | |
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